And that road accident – a non-fault victim hit at random. Like so many others-

that said, those cycle lanes are on (most of) the main drag. And they aint on the highway south-

I'm…

We're midtown – but there are some grunty hills between us and Thames Street- and an awful lot of tourist traffic...

I havent driven in CHCH – and here's me, big people-mover Mitsubishi L400- since 2007-

And, "under 80kg"? There goes any incentive for me to buy one for round-town (e.g. Oamaru) use- and for almost all my family except the small & growing ones-

Electric bikes (which can be pedalled I understand?)

There's many configurations. Some are basically a push bike with a bonus motor and battery (like mine). Others are basically a scooter (I have one of those too). Having owned the former kind for a few years, I think the idea is…

Electric bikes (which can be pedalled I understand?) and small electric cars sound* like the way future…

That smell occurs naturally – it's caused by the smug cloud that develops around all Prius-type vehicles.

Actually I'm pretty sure they spray it in from an aerosol or something during the annual service.

One of the near-unconscious checks you do when deciding whether it's safe to step out into the road is to listen and see if you can hear anything.

...the electric engine is very stealth, and people kept stepping out in front of him without looking.

Big issue for blind people…

Maybe they could add to the Prius a rotten egg smell, like they do to gas.

That smell occurs naturally – it's caused by the smug cloud that develops around all Prius-type vehicles.

I had a mate who had an early generation Prius back in 2004 who reckoned it was bloody murder in supermarket carparks, because at low speeds the electric engine is very stealth, and people kept stepping out in front of him without looking.

Which is why you become very vigilant…

"Did you just fart?"
"No, LOOK OUT!"

When the ambient noise level is high, quiet modern cars or trolleybuses can sneak up behind and catch you completely unawares,

The Prius dilemma. This is quite an issue for the designers of electric or hybrid cars, because people are used to telling where cars are by listening out for…

Not sure if this is referring to cycling or driving...?

Driving. Soz. Cycling's not that much of a danger to others. It should be approached with a lot of care for yourself, a big part of that is empathy with the other people on the road. See it their way,…

Yeah but nah.That lane becomes parking at 6.00pm, well, in Kingsland anyway.

Sorry for editing that angrypost out prior to your response – although IMO nothing of value was lost... :)

To clarify, I meant a particular point on New North Road going east, by the Dominion Road underpass, where…

Yup, when I'm pedaling at normal road speed up New North Road, ...care to others.

Yeah but nah.That lane becomes parking at 6.00pm, well, in Kingsland anyway. I got the honk for parking at 6.15 by a scrappy lil' sports car wanting to overtake all traffic on the centre lane,…

it should be approached with the same caution, and a higher duty of care to others.

Not sure if this is referring to cycling or driving...? I would expect that anyone using a public road ought to strive for the highest possible care for others, regardless of their mode of…

chris, I'm sure your tongue is sticking through your cheek when you write

i need better camouflage.

You take your life into your hands every time you get in the car, too. Cycling is not a special death-defying feat.

Yup, it should be approached with the same caution, and a higher duty of care to others.

"Even if the government sees only 2 billion of that in gst, I'm pretty sure it could almost be enough to at least cover some of the road maintenance necessary to rectify the damage those damn foreign…

I'm just not going to kid myself that I don't take my life into my hands every time I get onto one. I don't think it's fair to think of that as everyone else's fault.

You take your life into your hands every time you get in the car, too.…

It was a good discussion. I personally wouldn't have said it got particularly bad-tempered.

Impassioned, perhaps. It was indeed a good discussion, but most people seemed not to like it – hence the characterisation.

whenever I see something described as "A Quality Product" I think "What the fuck is that supposed to mean?".

We have a thread for you....

the ZatAoMM reference was a sly nod to another thread, which got very grumpy about it this week.

Grumpy? Really?

It was a good discussion.…

You can tell the cricket's on: it's very quiet here today.

Side note, I just upgraded my bike, 20 mins ago. Brand new hybrid. Yay! Now I have to sell one – a man doesn't really need 4 bikes.

So the corollary of that is that for relatively lower-performance vehicles, a lower level of…

"Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

The most annoying book I ever read, maybe there were more annoying ones but I have blocked them out of my consciousness.
I struggled through the opening pages thinking "This guy's a nutter" and "What the hell is his point?" Then I realised…

Surely it's the quality of the engineering that's important, rather than the quantity? There's an interesting book about this – it's called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

True story – in the early 1990s, I found "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" in nestled amongst the car…

fixie-riding hipster

Likes

Thanks, good effort representing the cycling, driving, motorcycling view.

Where did I mention anything about tourist cyclists paying to maintain West Coast roads? (And yes, I think they should be limited to highways that have continuous cycle-lanes...and I dont think there are any such.)…

in reality if the lord came through with horses, you got the hell out of the way, or got barrelled. Helps when the lord often owns the road you're walking on (despite the fact that you might have built it)

Kyle, no time to dig up appropriate quotes right now,…

Because these things are doing much more work, at much higher speeds, in much more dangerous conditions, the level of engineering is justified.

So the corollary of that is that for relatively lower-performance vehicles, a lower level of engineering is justified. Which implies that bicycles aren't underengineered – they're appropriately…

a cyclist, or a driver, pushing a barrow.

Driving. Cycling. You're doing it wrong.

I have an absolute right to travel within the speed limit according to the road conditions.

Surely if one of the road conditions is 'blind corner ahead', then you should slow down. It's not just about bikes, there might be people walking on the road, an accident ahead, stock etc.…

Ha, pwned. Fair enough, but you did assume earlier in the thread that I didn't drive, so we're even. :)

Actually, I only assumed that you might not have been a driver when you had your accidents. Were you? I knew that you drive now, you said so. But…

Sorry for this

No worries. Sometimes you need someplace to say something.

Thanks for that. It was also a bit 'on topic', well on the car topic at least, as Tim was an avid car lover and motoring journalist, publishing books on Trucking in New Zealand and regular contributions to…

are on something that is extremely underengineered, low powered, has very little braking power, no ability to protect them in an accident whatsoever, wobbles from side to side, ... and yet can actually…

And the amount of engineering is not irrelevant, it's the difference between a good car and a bad one, after all. Why is it not the difference between a car and a bike? Cars have massive redundancy of safety features built in.

No, the amount of engineering is irrelevant. It's…

Of course you do, it shows in the whole way you've been talking. Sunday, is the answer.

Ha, pwned. Fair enough, but you did assume earlier in the thread that I didn't drive, so we're even. :)

Most people riding do NOT ride a $5k bike and there is NO…

I was talking to a Norwegian…

Also, note that when I complain about the rights of vulnerable vs the dangerous, and ask who's rude, I know perfectly well what most people think. I'm proposing…

But the whole current set-up in cities is crap

I don't reckon. It seems pretty good to me, the entire thing is decentralized, we can all go pretty much anywhere we like with ease, except for people who work in the center of big cities who have to put up…

Ben, you do realise that a rusty old Edwardian banger is probably more efficient than any car on the road today, right? (In kms for energy used. (& `As engineered as' is meaningless.))

So what? We were talking about safety, not fuel efficiency. And the amount of engineering is not irrelevant,…

*I live in a remote area.*

People in properly organised cities would have – well what I mentioned. 24/7 public transport with other options. You noted my taxi tri-cabs? But the whole current set-up…

we need to make cities for people, not for vehicles: I dont know how many thousands of other people have shouted this, but if you design a city around a form of transportation/any form of transportation that is extremely costly & polluting in…

Most people riding do NOT ride a $5k bike and there is NO WAY it's as engineered as even a lame weak car

Ben, you do realise that a rusty old Edwardian banger is probably more efficient than any car on the road today, right? (In kms for energy used.…

The Kiwiblog slur is unwarranted , noted, & resented.

Just how much does the average tourist-cyclist pay towards this?

What is this, Kiwiblog?

The amount you contribute doesn't change your basic right to use public facilities. All roads (except the few motorways) are open to all classes of traffic. Everyone is entitled to use those according to the road…

in every city hub, cars are banned: people walking or biking (including
taxi-tricycles) or small electric shopping carts (for yerm, seniors – or mums with small kids) are all that is allowed...after midnight, electric delivery & service vehicles can come in for 4 hours. Silently...

There…

I've got to ask here: when were you last on a bike?

Of course you do, it shows in the whole way you've been talking. Sunday, is the answer. That was the last time I went for a reasonable length ride. Actually the real truth is yesterday, I rode…

Sorry for this

No worries. Sometimes you need someplace to say something.

oh, and check back earlier in the thread-

It's a…

It's certainly not a new concept. Stumbled on this 1905 clip from a San Francisco streetcar before their big quake – note the fairly relaxed…

Now, it is sealed, with only 1 one-way bridge – and slumping in parts (I remind my family & friends that if they are travelling…

It is a road built for an earlier time, and cyclists have never been a real consideration in any upgrade.

Too true for too many roads in our country. This isn't just a cyclist problem: how many of our rural roads were designed with an 80kph maximum speed in mind?

I think you need to give a bit of weight (in your monster post, and we will hold you to that promise!) to the different ways in which cars and other motor vehicles are used in the 21st century, c/f 100 years earlier.

Deborah: absolutely. I am not proposing a…

The whole "they don't pay road tax" thing is a wash. No-one pays road tax: you pay rates, or national taxes, which subsidise local/national roads respectively. Touring cyclists…

But how many of them are there? What extra costs do they incur that others have to bear?

I mean,…

Where I do have some sympathy with Islander's point is that State Highway whatever-it-is down the West Coast is a major highway. Even though it may…

I am being specific about tourist cyclists in an area where the roads arnt adequate to cater for…

Just how much does the average tourist-cyclist pay towards this?

Towards what? Us having a basic road network?

How much do cars cost us in terms of accidents, breavements, safe driving campaigns, wear and tear on the roads, pollution, the massive imbalance in our import/export stakes caused by the necessity…

I am hoarding links for a monster blog post on this subject, but in the meanwhile...

Many people think that faster, larger…

On the subject of photo ID, my partner just got his very first passport... ...He regards it with great suspicion. I'm not sure what he thinks will happen now he has one, but apparently it portends ominous things.

well it's a doorway to interesting people and alien ideas…

o, the one reason I dont extrapolate from my cycling experience is – I was a postie for 3 years,in Sockburn, Riccarton Road, central Christchurch, and the West Coast (most…

it was the way she read the road and anticpiated what other vehicles might do.

It back up my own experience. One of the things they emphasise in defensive driving – well, they did back in the '80s, when that grumpy Judge made me do a course – is reading…

A friend of mine didn't learn to drive until her mid-20s, went for her first driving lesson and the tutor said after a while 'I can tell you're a cyclist'

It wasn't her strong thighs (although that may have been part of it)…

I got my motorcycle license. It was not a practical choice, but one based purely on the love of seizing one of the most joyous forms of transport every invented between my legs, and letting rip.

Snap.

Good to see so many bikers coming out of the woodwork. What's everyone…

I've travelled it for 35 years – I've had precisely 2 accidents ( the cattlebeast(1987) & the campervan (2004)I detailed upthread.)

I have an absolute right to travel within the speed limit according to the road conditions.

And you are totally…

it is *physically impossible* to slow down sufficiently on some of the corners on SH63

At 20kph, you can stop in 10m, or about 2 car lengths. From my memory of driving that road, there aren't any corners where you can't see 2 car lengths ahead.

Is the actual problem…

Also, re: The Great Cycling…

I've gone and asked to be her friend, but for some reason, she hasn't responded yet...

Update: she has let me be her friend. What a champion. And the wee lad is gorgeous, as we would expect.

Have suggested you as her friend, so you can see all the bizzo.

I've gone and asked…

Our lovely Danielle had a boy, Deborah. A bonny big one.

Lovely news! Can someone point me to the thread here, so I can join in the general rejoicing? I've been searching diligently, but short of reading every damn thread, even the sports ones, I can't find anything.

And, frankly, cars, trucks, and other powered vehicles are *the major road users* in ANZ.

RichofObetc. – it is *physically impossible* to slow down sufficiently on some of the…

The road code (pg20) says that two cyclists *can* ride next to each other legally.

Doesn't mean it's not a fucking rude thing to do if you're holding up traffic, or risking a potentially fatal accident on a highway. It's also legal to drive your car at 1 km/h in…

...a bright yellow Suzuki Carry Van called Wee Jock Silly McPlop

Yay...glad to see i'm not the only one who names my vehicles. We currently have a people mover named Lexi and a van named Kobe.

My favourite was a Morrie Minor named Boston. I'm still toying with the idea…

two cyclists, complete with pannier bags (i.e taking up the north lane) round a blind corner.

The road code (pg20) says that two cyclists *can* ride next to each other legally.

Almost all sealed roads in NZ, especially state highways, are at least two lanes wide, so there is room…

Nothing is wrong with me, thankyouverymuch. I can get anywhere I need to go at any…

Being in the right and dead strikes me as a very bad deal.

Being in the right and killing someone doesn't seem so great, either.

Being in the right and dead strikes me as a very bad deal.

That pretty much sums it up for me. Still, to hear a spiel along the lines of "oh, you really should try driving a car, it broadens your perception, you feel the pressure waves, I tell you,…

Deborah, one of the other threads had details and announcement of Bobby's arrival- cheers!

As a…

That's a fairly large generalisation, don't you think Ben?

Of course it is, Emma. I'm doing it to explain, from a lifetime driver's perspective, how it feels. I'm being honest. Naturally I give lifts ungrudgingly to people all the time, and yes, I do like doing it. It's the times…

I found myself checking out beginner motorcycle models

Protip: avoid any Suzuki GN built in the last 10 years.

So what position should I have been in?

I think either "behind the wheel of a car" or "in your living room".

I also think drivers AND pedestrians don't turn their…

You most likely did not put yourself in a position that the driver could see you easily.

I was told "didn't see you" after getting hit on my bike last year. At the time I was waiting for the red light to change, over the central part of the detector…

This is the kind of thing non-drivers would think. Without directly experiencing driving, the error in that is probably not apparent. You most likely did not put yourself in a position that the driver could see you easily.

As a cyclist, motorcyclist and driver (another impending-parenthood-induced driver, no less), I…

This is the kind of thing non-drivers would think. Without directly experiencing driving, the error in that is probably not apparent.

Ben – you might have missed it earlier, but I've been driving for some years now. I just cycle as well. I don't think there's any error in what…

This is another reason to learn to drive, so that you can see the road the way drivers do, for your own safety.

AAAARRGGGHHH!

Drivers look at other drivers eyes ALL the time. They don't expect to be seen. It's total rubbish…

Now, I almost guarentee JackElder, you werent overtaking aforesaid drivers?

Nope. I'm normally hit by drivers pulling out of driveways, who've usually looked both ways but somehow failed to register the bloke in a fluorescent top. Like I say, I think people generally look for a particular pattern, which is…

Something to put in the 'be very afraid' basket: I have to have regular eyesight tests & check-ups- many many drivers out there have never had a proper eyesight test in their lives.

My mother got a driver's licence. By that stage, she had a neurological impairment that severely limited her…

@BenWilson: out of curiousity, since you enjoy driving, why do you resent driving other people around? Do I need to give my friends more petrol money :)?

It's hard to put my finger on it precisely. Perhaps, but that's probably not it for me. It's more about the expectation that…

(Once you've driven for a while, you can actually feel where the outside limits of your vehicle are. Which is why it can come as a considerable physical shock when you are unexpectedly rammed by a cattlebeast…

Now, I almost guarentee JackElder, you werent overtaking aforesaid drivers?

Something to put in…

Emma, are you in town on Saturday? Because I'm having a birthday party, and there will doubtless be people you know from The Old Days there.

Saturday is the day we do the East German Border Crossing transfer of me from Megan to Susan. My location is at least partially…

apparently the vision of drivers improves dramatically, particularly peripheral vision.

This explains why every time I've been hit by a car (both on foot and on a bike), the first thing the driver's said to me was "Sorry, I didn't see you." Personally, I think that drivers are great at…

And Joanna, I am a lovely non-drinking non-driver. I do it just to annoy you :)

Just for that, I refuse to drive you anywhere ever.

@BenWilson: out of curiousity,…

It was funny how the bouncers didn't really look past the word "firearms" before letting me in.

Because we want people who might have firearms drunk?

impregnating my wife threw the issue into sharp relief

You old romantic you!

But I do have a gun licence, and have had one for decades (since they first came…

once he (our son, not my partner) started refusing to sit in the push-chair on walks

so your partner still likes riding in the push-chair?

Reminds me of trying to get insurance to buy a car in the US, needed a car and a social security number before we could…

For me, driving…

http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy-and-consultation/legislation/prostitution-law-reform/faq#Note

I use a passport for…

I never bothered to get my license until I was pregnant with my son 4 years ago

My partner only learned to drive when I was pregnant with our first child, and we really only needed a vehicle (a bright yellow Suzuki Carry Van called Wee Jock Silly McPlop) once…

DOES NOT COMPUTE!

I was once offered a job in the UK 'up north'. I was living in London at the time, where a car is something of a liability, unless you're the sort of weirdo who enjoys spending hours looking for a parking space, and cleaning up glass from…

Firearms licences are cool. You could get one of those.

A friend of mine at uni had one and when he turned 20 while I was still 19 he loaned me the card so we could skirt a law that was changed a few years later.

It was funny how…

Firearms licences are cool. You could get one of those.

...

Well firearms licences aren't like that at all. A cop will actually visit the house of those people who agree you should have the licence and talks to them for like 15 minutes.

Which is quite ironic really, given…

In fact, when one has an iPod, there's really not much to complain about with public transport.

And well-thumbed mags in coffee shops don't get a look in. I've had licence and car since I was 15, so I couldn't comment. But, like JackE, while living in Tokyo the concept…

I recently thought about moving banks, but ASB…

When I explained that I either bussed or walked, he was totally thrown.

But- But if you don't have a car, how to do you to Briscoes or Farmers and buy lots of things to put in your car to take home? DOES NOT COMPUTE!

I've been carless for over…

No drivers' license I can understand, but no passport? Blimey.

My passport expired about a decade ago, and given it was just as expensive to get a new one as renew the old one, I just didn't bother. For most of that time I've been pretty much too ill for…

people's eyes would bulge with amazement when they found out, and I would get frequent lectures from work colleagues about how I must learn to drive immediately

Our lawyer was just totally flummoxed. He couldn't work out how I got from place to place. When I explained that I either…

Machine Empathy: Paranoia, right?…

A cop will actually visit the house of those people who agree you should have the licence and talks to them for like 15 minutes.

Yeah, it's the nearest thing we have to a certificate of sanity.

You know when someone is applying for a passport, and they have to have people who don't live with them sign statements on photos saying that you are really you and that the photo is a good likeness, etc. And…

Turns out, though, that you also need photo ID to buy a house.

Oh, you could get one of those Hospitality Association of NZ 18+ Cards so you can both buy property, and wine from the supermarket.

Hilariously, the sample 18+ Card on the HANZ website has the birth year…