* although I do reckon that opinion's pretty shoddy, the…

And whatever Right to Life wants.

"Lawyer paid to say whatever Family First wants"?

Bad news: sacked Herald sub-editors read the headline, the story, and weep.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10829817

Be that so-

Oh certainly not in the fields her and her partner work in. As family (extended and…

The coupling of ‘marriage’ and ‘adoption’ “to all couples” is to be regretted: there is already provision within ANZ law for a single…

I felt so too. and yes the bigger picture is just that, much bigger .I was actually talking to a person who deals with families a lot and discussing how she felt about perceptions and it was interesting to note that she…

Catherine Masters for the Herald

And it was only later I found that Glen Larson, the creator of Knight Rider and…

BTW the last time I looked they'd retrospectively baptised my dad, but they'd managed…

I politely said "Franz Josef" before shutting the door...

That's odd. I worked with a Utah based support…

And most of what he said was waffle not worthy of serious consideration.

Lilith takes her reasoned approach to atheism and consequently her dignity seriously. It took her hard work and…

A lot of cherry-picking and reiteration follows, mostly in the form of pointing and giggling. Other flaws include the argument of the excluded middle.

The claim that people are charitable only within their own religions is demonstrably false if you look worldwide.…

"Just-So-Stories", how very apt!

In my experience any institution, any belief-system or world-view has its share of dicks. Some groups seem to positively encourage dickishness; but equally you're likely to find lots of good people. I think there are a lot of possible paths to being…

Indeed. In fact, In some commentary I’ve found on that debate, I’ve seen some quite explicit eye-rolling about how things have moved on. Be that as it may, Wilson has been consistently…

You’re welcome. We can agree to disagree. As I find myself saying more often these days, “Ask me in a couple of centuries.”

Consider “and those around him” if he doesn’t matter to you. It appears to have mattered to those people. Could you consider that?

My observation that religious partisanship makes bad people worse, but I…

Yeah, they're good now that their murdering, witch burning days are behind them.
The new age is a term not a religion. Charlatans just the same tho.
And how one man lived his life means only something to him…

Yesterday I went to a religious funeral – the deceased in his…

Almost agree, I think when discussing religion it is better to ignore belief. Belief makes no functional difference to religion.

Which means local religion is a meaningless social clique where membership demands only that no one mention the emperor has no clothes, and even the church officials don't actually…

This digression was your fault? :-)

your next is to raise the topic of copyright on any other thread :)

People who think there's a giant invisible flying elephant following them around who will slap them with its trunk if they think bad thoughts are delusional. Everyone agrees on this.

People who think a bearded old white guy watches them from another dimension who…

Yes, that was a very incomplete post I cranked out, there, having to rush to pick up kids, and not caring to lose the thought. Which is, ironically, analogous to what I'm talking about. The…

Another analogy from computer…

But evolution itself is not what's in dispute…

As far as Dawkins goes, we've had this conversation before, Craig. To me, he's…

Just a note on that – not a criticism, kinda an adjustment or footnote. "Extreme" could be applied to one of the people I mention above who see the hand of God in literally everything, practise their faith arduously, but don't run aloud loudly condemning Godless Darwinism…

Personally, I'd like folks like Professor Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens to stop characterizing religious faith as a mental illness — which is…

Lilith, I think that ’d really enjoy getting drunk with you. I hope that that doesn’t seem sleazy.

And, FYI, this blogger may interest you. Athena Andreadis is a blogger, feminist and biologist, and as such, sceptic of…

I’ll point to this. Pay attention to the comments. Several expert commentators point out that Dawkins is not only being excessively emotional, but being a bad scientist in doing so.

There’s also this as an indication of the nature of the fervour.

While…

I wish he would too. Unfortunately he doesn’t, and I’m human enough to think that that matters. His attacks on Edward Wilson are seriously unprofessional.

And evolutionary biology is falsifiable.

I’d like it to be true because it seems logical, but there’s been plenty of…

sorry for a late and extremely schematic reply. In fact, it’s a placeholder – I have some major workload issues at the moment.

Um, in no particular order…

Possibly Huxley is my touchstone.

I want to put as much space as possible between myself and self-declared atheists such…

Ben, now that would be a use of ‘agnostic’ that I get. Anyway, if you haven’t looked him up yet… Mister Myxzptlk. He's much like Q from Star Trek…

Mix that up, add…

God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e. everybody], to being involved…

No, I agree, indeed. Having qualifications and personal income from both sides of the engineering/humanities epistemological fence* I'm aware that there's more than one way to skin a cat, or a right way to skin a…

I don't have absolute confidence in my own arguments here, so sometimes I'm just being obtuse... damn, did I just say that out loud? Ahem, I mean those were examples where physicists…

According to Popper, anyway. It's a pretty harsh criterion. But as regards God and other imaginary friends, it's a useful one. Popper doesn't go so far as to say things that are unscientific are false. I doubt he'd…

Quite – I'm sure someone like Idiot/Savant or Keith Ng has crunched the data, but members' bills hardly dominate the Parliamentary agenda. Sitting time…

This annoys me. Parliament has time set aside for private members bills. The only thing that this bill is preventing happening is other private members bills. The government's agenda to fix the economy, create jobs, screw us all over etc, will…

This is a particularly good analogy in that we – all of us, whether we know it or not – live our lives as if P!=NP. (I love the…

To elaborate, from those I know who practice faith, the compulsion of belief or the compulsion of avowal of belief is the very antithesis of faith.

Is anyone actually saying that?

OK, creationists are fools and nasty people, but one should not be morally compelled into accepting or rejecting a position because it might give aid and comfort to the enemy. Whether or not a creationist can use…

What happened to the "event horizon" that was "the limit of falsifiability"?

Yes, it's a curious and ingenious argument. The disproof of it is that it can be applied to it's own opposite, causing a contradiction. Presumably there is an assumption in there that is thus disproved, but I don't…

Your question troubles me somehow. Am I to understand that in your view all those in whose lives faith plays a role all adhere to some rigid insistence that the world is this way and no other and could not possibly be any other way…

Generally so, if there is any evidence. If there is none, and the choice is arbitrary, it's not always irrational to make a…

No, I'm explaining what some of the implications of Pascal's Wager are.

There is sense and non sense – science and non science. Your links may provide two examples of…

You are assigning motives to the beliefs of others.

Hmmm, maybe a sliding scale of probabilities, with a threshold perhaps? (Semi-joke). You know of Pascal's Wager? Essentially it's "There are two variables – I believe in God or not and there is a…

That was it, in a nutshell. Nothing more , nothing less. I'm not prepared to express or want my view to be put upon…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnjfxCp92pc

Faith or lack of is held and expressed personally – all things that are personal, be it a theist or atheist perspective is defined by the realm of the person’s existence and will evolve. If you can think you can evolve – if you can’t…

Dante, in a letter to his patron on the Divine Comedy , explained that it should be read as having (as he called…

Can you give an example?

Yes, I know. I really shouldn't have added that, it distracted from my main point, which is that for some of us there is no contradiction between faith and science.

But if I may defend my glibness, and borrow from Ben

we don’t really have any way…

No, it isn't. The rational thing is to believe what is most probably true, not to pick something at random to believe in. Rational belief is justified by evidence .

Of…

Yes, but that's not the point : with science challenge and change is integral to the process. I think I've said this enough times in enough ways. You're free to disagree.

I've heard of people having their faith rocked, many a time. Faith is something that's only irrational once there's actually evidence against. Until then, it's just one choice amongst unknowns. It can be a useful attitude, giving you determination to follow a course that seems hopeless.

Everything evolves.

Which can be almost nothing. The two ideas are not incompatible. Even if we have searched a lot, if the space left to search is still much bigger (in the case…

Yep the walking wounded. To mention a few.
That is, when they walk.

simply to avoid the misery
We're all trying to do that

I guess that's why it's called a faith.

No, I can't. It's a contingent belief . As is all scientific knowledge. It's the best we know at this time. That's not at all the same as a blind…

How can science rule on god any more than it rules on fairies at the bottom of the garden, or giant spaghetti monsters…

I know. But "it's more rational to think x" is not the same as "x is true". It might not be true. If…

That would only worry me if her trials were of faith healing, or if her faith were somehow negatively impacting her professional performance – Frank Burns in MASH (the film), for example, using his…

I don't think so. Show any atheist actual proof that a god exists, and they would accept it. In the absence of any evidence and given that positing a god has no explanatory power, we…

I got that haha

ask whether by “darker” you mean “obscure”?

Well obscure in the sense that most people dont bother to investigate, and in the case of some religious organisations(and it is mainly religious organisations) actively discouraged from finding out what it means to be born as…

Heh!
And, ae/yeah-

I especially like PTerry’s assignment of us back into Pan-dom!
Seriously, for a half-baked being to call itself “wise wise human” ….!
And therebye trying to separate itself – put itself on a…

Why so?

To hold an atheist view does not require faith in the same sense that believing in a deity does. I think you're confusing atheists in…

No, at least, not entirely. Obscurity is part of it, but lacking light is, too.

I did call myself a pedant, so it's not obviously unnecessary nit-picking to ask whether by "darker" you mean "obscure"?

Apologies for ...

I think that we've established good and sincere intentions as a tacit…

Good idea. It certainly fits better than anything including sapiens, considering how intent we are on destruction.

Therein, I think, lies the source of the accusation that atheism is a kind of faith. Atheism, if I may offer my own definition, is the belief that there is no God/god/gods. My…

Likewise. Currently I’m struggling to empathise with someone whom I care about very much who is definitively not an atheist and professionally I’m having to deal with some very devout Muslims in a respectful and practical manner. I’m not ready to convert to anything,…

Yes, At the nitty-gritty level I think that atheism is "illogical" or rather that its logic breaks down at a certain event horizon, but I do think that it is is pragmatic and that it's the best working solution.

You're an atheist,…

From what…

To elaborate, Terry Pratchett said that we should be called Pan narans – "the ape that tells stories" instead of Homo sapiens . Narrative is to me what it…

Hah! None taken.

That's what I find fascinating!

Lilith,

I repeat, honestly, it is NOT my intention to belittle you. I have Asperger's and emotional nuances, especially in a medium such as…

ALL deities.
Atheists dont believe in/have/worship any deities -except our smug wee selves of course-snark! Snork! Hinghing!

Ah goodness – I really didnt expect to have this exchange within this very literate & well-educated community-

I don't want to take offence. You're belittling and mocking me and accusing me of bad faith and oversensitivity.

If you can't see how your words are offensive, we've nothing more to…

mythology can be personal or familial or tribal – it is storytelling, which, I rather think, is innate to our species...

Sorry, that is certainly not my intention. I’m…

I meant, all atheists. As I think was perfectly clear from context.

And, speaking for myself only, I think it's kinda rude the way you're trying to define us out of existence.…

I'm not sure if "everyone" on this blog can be so described, but be that as it may...

Eh, I wrote a long spiel about aesthetics, "spirituality" versus (no quotes) spirituality and the Sublime and decided that it was wayyyyy off-topic. In essence, is "spirituality"…

Ah, but without which gods?

without/no /god/s

As an atheist, I find the very idea that I have a faith stupid & repugnant – Lilith said it first & best-

That’s optimistic – if the Transhumanists/Singulatarians are right and the Rapture of the Nerds happens, that should about do it. Otherwise… ooh, a few million?

You seem keen to stick a label on me.

That's not such a bad thing – I'm…

A = without, theo = God

Actually, that’s positivism. In it’s pragmatic form, it’s more or less “The burden of proof”.

I also don't, in the conversation you have…

who ate all the pies? #mass

Labour MP Su'a William Sio says he will be voting against the same-sex marriage bill, which he says could cost the party the next election.

The MP for Mangere said there was widespread opposition within his electorate, which has the highest…

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," said Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist, and so therefore you…

Anyone else seeing Pennsylvania?

bless the puritans

The "God Particle" name came because the editor of a journal was not happy with the author referring to it the "God-damned particle" (a fair reflection on the difficulty of observing it).

__What are days for?
Days are where we live.
They come, they wake us
Time and time over.
They are to be happy in:
Where can we live but days?

Ah, solving that question
Brings the priest and…

So whilst one is ill would they be mowing your lawns, doing the dishes, cooking the meals , washing your clothes and changiong the bed?

Science is great at describing the physical workings off the universe – the processes by which we came to be here and still (despite our best efforts to bugger it all up) exist, by which all that…

Here's where my aspie obsessiveness kicks in. Inevitably, anything governed by physical law potentially reveals a basic orderliness. The purpose of science is to describe the expression of natural law into perceptible manifestation, so this statement makes no sense except…

Thus Jesus,

As I understand it, more liberal Christians use the example of Jesus – not necessarily the objective…

What my jokey tone didnt convey that! bugger

I dunno. My racist workmate (cue TMBG song) is quite upfront that his asian-ancestry coworkers are inherently inferior and Australia would be a better place if they all went back where they came from. And I dislike him intensely after…

The parallel is…

Two geezers, one Lederman (Nobel award winning physicist) and the other Tresci (a science writer) co authored a book called – The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question? – which provides an…

I discovered this week that this approach, which I still agree with, doesn't work all the time. My…

I’m neither amused nor surprised. I’m not sure I should be inferring a causal relationship between the two but is it any surprise that…

I was amused when my parents swung from "meh" to unconditional support after my sister got married. I suspect because…

Once, again, God demonstrating his need of a Map to the Gayz.

This might help. Try to guess which major city in…

This could be a sign for us to hurry up and pass it, or else....

“So an infinite being, who can not be less than infinite is relatable generally via providence and immediately at a human scale by the incarnation…alright,
Thus Jesus, Oh right. Do you need a translator.…

Yeah, that's it for me – "Someone else's rights" are my rights, otherwise we're in a society ranked by privileges, if you…

Well, no we can't, not yet, because we still don't have the numbers. Would…

Oh, totally not. If I thought Steve was, then everyone around here knows I'm quite capable of reducing a harmless thread to a radioactive wasteland where only the roaches survive. :) But hell, Deborah's got a point — one of the nice things…

I'm just concerned that paleoleftists such as Trotter will deliberately use the chimera of "identity politics" to make false priorities or choices between unrelated progressive concerns in order to preserve their own privileges.

Yes, fair enough. I just don't know why it is questionable at all. For me it's a no brainer. Pass it. I'll support. Everyone in my life from birth to now is equal to me. My family, a bit odd. But…

Indeed you’ll have no disagreement from me or…

But why look at this as "wretchedly familiar to woman"? Craig has expressed for a long time how it effects/affects him. Surely…

I don't wish to attack Steve, really. I'm sure he's speaking in good faith.

And why not save our infrastructure instead

This I find incomprehensible – why is it "instead"?

Hell, I'm supposed to…

Sorry, but I’m definitely with Craig on this one. I’m sure that you don’t…

More "Selective Amnesia" than "Serious Fun", methinks.

Gibbs is calling the kettle black when he accuses Helen Clark – irrespective of what one thinks of her – of 'rewriting history', when he completely glosses over Telecom's Ma Bell-ism among other…

Steve: OK, I totally get that marriage equality is no biggie to you – it's not to many people who are passionate about things that make me go "meh". That's cool, and since we don't live in the Borg Collective we…

And what of the gay ninjas, creeping up unseen...?

Sorry, as you were.

Yeah. National anthem, for starters...

Maoridom.

Religion was not involved. Tribal & familial negotiation certainly were.It became involved when a high-born child was born (and frequently with lower ranks who were experts.)

For lower ranked people, simply sleeping…

so true. one form of prayer in civic functions is nuts

Tangential question: What about the Anglican Church? It is a member of the communion whose head also happens to be our head of state. And Christian (my impression is specifically Anglican) prayers, hymns and other rites and rituals have…

If you can't get married in the church of…

It's s29 of the…

That was all on my lack of clarity not a reading comprehension fail on your part. No harm, no foul.