Although I liked Atran's and Richard…

liam – interesting interpretation: for statisitcal purposes. I understand "none" goes into the not-religious/ atheistic basket, and "n/a" into the 'chooses not to answer" file...statisticians, please?

Posted at 4:19PM on 10 Mar 09. Permalink.

Is N/A somehow different from "None"?

It seems to be to me. "None" in the context of the way the questions generally are seems to say 'no organized religion', but leaves the possibility of other spiritual beliefs. N/A says that the…

From my experience in situations where I could die, my thoughts in these situations is usually some variant on "Well, this is going to hurt."

Strange. I get a worrying sensation about the unaffordability of insurance premiums, combined with a stupidity of death comparison to the guy who died by…

How 'bout twelve Bloody Marys?

At ten in the morning? I want the Fridays you're having..

How 'bout twelve Bloody Marys?

And twelve How's Your Fathers? Elvis Costello album wasn't it?

You guys are so articulate with your near-death experiences. Any time Death has clearly been in the room with me the closest my brain could have got to vocables would have been 'you're fucking kidding…

From my experience in situations where I could die, my thoughts in these situations is usually some variant on "Well, this is going to hurt." Sometimes bulked out with "Hey, that sky is really blue today"

You guys are so articulate with your near-death experiences. Any time Death has clearly…

12 hail marys.

How 'bout twelve Bloody Marys? It is Friday.

Not particularly recurring, but it's happened a few times. To be honest, I've had about as many accidents while taking evasive action to avoid being hit. You get used to it after a while.

I've been lucky when riding personally, but my dad on the other handhas had more than…

Shivers, you mean getting hit by a car is you recurring theme?

Not particularly recurring, but it's happened a few times. To be honest, I've had about as many accidents while taking evasive action to avoid being hit. You get used to it after a while.

big fat hippy incense

But how can you tell it was made by large hippies?

Yeah, lucky a snippet of Aristotle's writings survived to have that influence.
Thanks Ben.

I'm sure if he didn't say it, it would have been rediscovered, since it was a very compelling scientific argument. I point it out to counter your apparent claim that there was no science going on…

... yournear death experiences, and how you feared. Did you think: 'No worries, nothing is going to happen"

From my experience in situations where I could die, my thoughts in these situations is usually some variant on "Well, this is going to hurt." Sometimes bulked out with "Hey, that sky…

Isnt it funny that most of the people who turned up to comment profess no religion. I guess it says something about the readership of Public address.
Well there was the one catholic, the resident PA supposed contrarian the dear luv, he was out of here quick.

From the tone…

Dear Ms Emma Hart

You overcame your Kiwi reticence to mention the subject of religion. Thanks.
Isnt it funny that most of…

Starting in Ionian islands and then on through troublesome relationships with religions that were around over time, so I kinda left it out on purpose.

I'm not one to discount the vast array of ancient philosophers who weren't Greek, just because I haven't particularly studied them. But of the Greek…

You left out "Philosophers"

Starting in Ionian islands and then on through troublesome relationships with religions that were around over time, so I kinda left it out on purpose.

Cause thats when the idea of proofs started to appear. And so the distinction between the religious and the scientific started…

So I guess we agree.

Not sure yet :-)

Im guessing here but you saying this because you see theist's and atheist's as two sides of a coin, ying and yang?

Hardcore ones, yes.

Yet you say you are an atheist but of a different stripe? Im completely nonplussed as…

I'm not quite ready to commit to the idea that Evolution can explain everything about the human mind, because so far it has not. It is a possibility that it never will, and if you are not dogmatic you have to accept this.

Evolution only explains how we got this…

Posted at 3:28PM on 6 Mar 09.

A friend of mine put it like this: atheism is not a religious belief any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby.

I have always put Not-Applicable or N/A on forms which query my religious status. Religion, for me, is something…

I am…

So the wine was good?

Yes t'was.

Oh Ben Ben Ben.
There are so many fallacies in this statement, I just dont know where to start and sorry I dont have time at present to go over them so, I'll just have to leave you to ponder them further.

Or…

I don't know enough yet to apply labels to my own leanings or understandings. Maybe I'll get there eventually..

It's better to just describe them, and let the semantics fall where they may. A word is just name for an idea, you could call your position "Sachaism" and be totally…

To take a strong position on the non-existence of God is to give a lot more of a shit about God than agnostics do.

Agree. My father was a devout atheist.

Thats because the Theory of Evolution's explanatory power is still in its infancy in this regard, when it comes to the more complex workings of the mind.

Or it could be completely inadequate for the task. It's a possibility. If you really have a scientific mind then you have to…

incensible before dinner even began.

Oh behave.

the study of evolution can be very weak at shedding light on human behavior, and mental states.

Thats because the Theory of Evolution's explanatory power is still in its infancy in this regard, when it comes to the more complex workings of the…

Even so, why some feelings and not others?

I guess the more simply functional the feeling, the easier it is to ascribe biological reasons. Hunger is something you usually feel right in your gut, and eating gets rid of it, so you can put it down to biology (although I…

I'm just groaning at the implied "getting incensed" pun.

So much for moderation: clearly he was quite incensible before dinner even began.

I'm not convinced you understand the meaning of the word spiritualiy, in the same way that I do

Then I'll try this. I'm uncorking a bottle of wine I have been saving. What better time than when one is facing the daunting job market, the aroma is intoxicating enough, the…

And, what really fascinates me, why this neurochemical reaction to this particular thing, and not that one? Why is this thing beautiful, but not that?

Evolutionary psychology offers the most compelling theory of origin, namely, that the Darwinian crapshoot equipped us with complex brains to help us to deal better…

I has been presented with an acute awarness of my own being, not alot made sence and I was turning manic.

Diagonally parked in a parallel Universe?

Subjective of course, but I'm still compelled to disagree.

Oh, I don't agree with a lot of what Ruskin says, but I find him really interesting anyway. The Stones of Venice contains some weep-makingly beautiful prose, especially if you've just read some of the Utilitarians – JS Mill, Jeremy Betham.…

Ruskin and the counter-reaction to Utilitarianism.

Getting obsure there. But I read he was of the era of Hume.
And thought pigs unlovely and so used them as an example to dismiss utility being beauty.
Those old english types eh! sitting round insulting pigs or not. Seems he may have…

I prefer enjoying beauty to understanding it.

I find beauty in understanding.

Remember that the most beautiful things in the world are the most useless, peacocks and lilies for instance.

Subjective of course, but I'm still compelled to disagree. Both that lilies & peacocks (what is more garish? their very name has become a synonym…

Even so, why some feelings and not others? Lust, because it makes blood rush places I guess, is generally considered a 'biological' feeling (hence pejoratively an urge) whereas the contemplation of beauty, or friendship, or human solidarity and altruism, would be spiritual hence higher, better.

And, what really fascinates me,…

Mark, your criticism of the Buddhism quote is justified. I said right after that that it was 'harsh', and I actually was going to write…

Resilience in the face adversity...

Is a "spirituality" necessary to be capable of this?
Isnt an intelligence from which to decide and choose from a variety of plans of action enough (in the case of hominds such as us).

Descartes reputation is undeserved in this area of study.
Just as the new era of christian apologist who resort to digging out Augustine and Aquinas to prop up their convoluted belief systems and throw in quantum woo just for good measure.
If one has…

I am confident that feelings are compleatly biological. But again, what is spirituality? I think its a humen construct, that has practical purpose...

The practical purpose being?
There is beings of a comprehensive literature on this subject. It does challenge in a very substantive way the mind/body dualism humanity has…

being a motorcycle rider myself

I find that 3-4 hours of high-speed worship on a sunday morning almost always fills me with a deep sense of spiritual calm...

But what is easy to think is so often not true.

Even so, why some feelings and not others? Lust, because it makes blood rush places I guess, is generally considered a 'biological' feeling (hence pejoratively an urge) whereas the contemplation of beauty, or friendship, or human solidarity and altruism,…

I really can't for the life of me understand why so many people consider feelings as somehow occurring outside of biology.

I can understand it. I just don't agree with it. I'm sure the reason people don't see the mind as biological is because they themselves have one. It's the…

I really can't for the life of me understand why so many people consider feelings as somehow occurring outside of biology.

Nice, Giovanni.

The English term 'spiritual' itself, with it's secondary definition,

of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to…

Yes, when I was young and foolish I hadn't learned that it is not necessary to read a book to the end.

I can only assume that your parents weren't 'The Beatles' obsessives...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhHm-5lKkZ0

Dao de Jiing #47

I think in Thailand the name lent itself to all sorts of word play, because it's part of the verb "to be".

Sounds like great fun...partake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iUMWy4hqAg

I think in Thailand the name lent itself to all sorts of word play, because it's part of the verb "to be".

English: Mark: ....skid-mark, a trail of left on the ground by tyres, and....

ha. Thanks. perspective!

But you do have to read a bit about it to realize that.

you'd think...at least to know how what you're knowing is defined. There is something telling in your reading of that book…

I noticed that in Thailand my name also seemed to arouse a lot of mirth.

English: Mark: ....skid-mark, a trail of left on the ground by tyres, and....

to project an aura of sensitivity and manly practicality

Clearly from the days when only soft men were supoosed to read books. Hang on, not sure that's changed..

Something about being seen with it being a good way to project an aura of sensitivity and manly practicality.

I tried reading it once. (No, not because I wanted to project an…

Sounds like Buddhism and Catholicism have population increase as a common goal..

and yet 350 million Buddhists vs 1b+ Catholics...

Buddhism, however, has plenty to say:

Buddhist sexual proscriptions ban homosexual sexual activity and heterosexual sex through orifices other than the vagina, including masturbation or other sexual activity with the…

WHAT IS BUDDHISM?

This is not an easy question to answer, because Buddhism is comprised of many systems of belief and practice, or what we call traditions. These traditions have developed in different times and different countries, and in some degree of isolation from each other. Each…

Neuroscience tho is making inroads into explaining this supposedly intangible called spirituality which so far looks to be a product of our minds

I often think about stuff of the mind. My small example being that when I was healing from my brain failure, I could hear a voice inside…

a bunch of mostly altruistic behaviors, that are the glue that hold us, a social animal, together

As someone said upthread, I think you're talking about community.

Spirituality to me is a connection with something bigger, including the natural world and the wonder that others have talked about. That can…

I find a simple, fierce 'PISS OFF' will suffice.

Yeah, 'cos there's nothing people COLLECTING FOR CHARITY deserve more than a good shouting at.

If you had read the comment more carefully you'd have noticed it was about being pestered by evangelicals of various types. Not about charridy at all.…

It was a play on words

Oh right mebbe my spirit is impoverished, Oh thats right I starved it to death.

we are in fact in vehement agreement.

So does that mean I dont get banished to kiwiblog?

I dont think the beast called science agrees then. Neuroscience tho is making inroads into explaining thissupposedly intangible called spirituality which so far looks to be a product of our minds. So maybe enmasse we should make an effort to accept this as a possibility.

In that case, I think…

But the catholic church has a lot to say. And if you are going to divorce Jesus from the church whats the point.

Seems to me that the central point of Christianity is loving Jesus and believing he's the son of God, and God.

So perhaps our dear friend loves…

That was a response to a supposed incompatibility between homosexuality and Catholicism, which is why Jesus' total lack of pronouncements on homosexuality might possibly be relevant.

But the catholic church has a lot to say. And if you are going to divorce Jesus from the church whats the point.
Point…

It really is a strange world.

Jesus didn't have all that much to say about The Gays, perhaps that makes a difference to him.

Your point being? I dont remember much about gays in Taoist or Buddhist philosophy either.
Or are you just stroking your beard?

That was a response to a supposed incompatibility between homosexuality…

To sort of reply to Andrew and andin's comments,

Oh, Im a pussy cat I rarely snap at strangers especially in person.
And usually when "spiritually" comes up I shut up and just enquiry politely about the brand. I dont eat old ladies for breakfast, am very selfless (Well I…

I like to learn about other people's considered religious views and their spiritual experiences. It all goes into a big pot marked 'who knows' from which no conclusions…

I find a simple, fierce 'PISS OFF' will suffice.

Yeah, 'cos there's nothing people COLLECTING FOR CHARITY deserve more than a good shouting at.

I find that telling people I'm not interested tends to work pretty well, without any raging or barking required. You know, acting with civility, and letting…

...I can leave it on?

But not the packet o crisps..

but I have in the past described, to take one example, the dear old Windsor Castle pub as "our church".
We used to go there for the things folks go to church for — music, community and transcendence. Although our methods for transcendence probably wouldn't have pleased the vicar ...

…

but if the hat fits...

...I can leave it on?

I can't remember where I read this, but anyway:

"I don't believe in organised religion but I am spiritual" is an odd position. It's all of the baggage of superstition, without any of the benefits of community.

Sounds kind of like William James in his book The Varieties of Religious…

JW: "Can I offer you…

If my use of that word has offended anybody I sincerely apologise. That was never my intent.

Sorry Stuart, I was explaining the reasoning for my own choice rather than trying to imply the reasoning behind yours. I've worked with administering web communities for scarily close to a decade now,…

I wonder if, possibly because…

I always suspect that people who say stuff like "I'm not religious but I am very spiritual" are basically trying to have it both ways and see themselves as superior to both theists and atheists.

I can't remember where I read this, but anyway:

"I don't believe in organised religion…

But 'church' also has connotations which 'community' does not, and which members of the PA community might find offensive or simply discomforting. So why use it?

If my use of that word has offended anybody I sincerely apologise. That was never my intent. My use of the word is more…

seems implausible because, well, it was before we became blessed with the Reserve Bank Act.

Well played.

atheism is not a religious belief any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Like.

We're going to get into more semantics probably, but what word would you use in that context?

I have no problem with semantics where everyone's aware that we're dealing in semantics.

I'd use the word 'community', because that's what it is. Churches are also communities, but that does not make…

that seems very...forgiving of you.

I could barely have found New Zealand on a map at the time, it has to be said.

adorable

that seems very...forgiving of you.

(i saw the former lecturer speaking as tertiary education spokesperson before the '87 election.
what happened in the ensuing three years was a lesson in "you actually believed those pricks?" betrayal.
so drinking with or voting for someone so liberal with the truth…

@ Emma
We're going to…

Human being are animals. We follow basic biology and that is to survive ourselves and ensure that our species survives. For me anything that it outside of that biological imperative is the soul, or spirituality.

There's nothing more human (or animal, for that matter) than caring for others. I really…

It irritates me when religious people (or non-religious people, for that matter) insist I have some sort of belief system, when all I have is an absence of belief.

A friend of mine put it like this: atheism is not a religious belief any more than not collecting stamps is…

For me anything that it outside of that biological imperative is the soul, or spirituality.

I would expect that most of those things you list are the result of biological imperatives if you look hard enough.

Also, I think you're redefining the soul which means that it (potentially) different to…

It irritates me when religious people (or non-religious people, for that matter) insist I have some sort of belief system, when all I have is an absence of belief

I have some sort belief system – it is (currently) unexamined, incomplete, probably inconsistent, and subject to change without notice.
What…

What does annoy me is the people who insist that everyone has a spritual side. "Oh," they say, "you do have an inner spirituality, even if you don't believe in God." No. No, I don't. I have the spiritual impulses of a brick.

This is probaly going to annoy you…

I wish god would submit his laws to select committee hearings. I have some issues with a couple of them.

I wish the government would do the same.

Along similar lines, I've always found claims that such God(s) – if they do indeed exist – both demand and appreciate worship from petty humans rather, err, preposterous.

Giovanni and I are probably both doing mental George Carlin impressions at this point.

My idea is that any religious/spiritual feeling should come from within and not be imposed or encouraged from without.

I may get some sort of spiritual uplift from natural sources (seeing a fern frond uncurl, being licked by a puppy, etc) but…

"God's law is above any human law. So when a human law ... is contrary to God's law, this human law has no value," Cardoso said.

I wish god would submit his laws to select committee hearings. I have some issues with a couple of them.

However Father Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, Archbishop for the Recife region where the abortion was performed, has excommunicated those involved in the procedure, including the girl's mother and the hospital staff who performed it.

"God's law is above any…

I don't know where J's position came from, but I felt proud of him and furious with the nasty people who had run the "party".

A hearty 'amen' would be kind of inappropriate, right?

I think Jesus is a lot like the Twilight franchise. Their biggest fans are their worst…

you can join the party only if you give yourself to Jesus

They were buying souls for a mess of pottage?

(Though I've thought that actually more people would sell their inheritance for a message of pot)

the Abrahamic Gods go, you could prove they existed to me, and I still wouldn't want to worship them.

Nicely put!

Along similar lines, I've always found claims that such God(s) – if they do indeed exist – both demand and appreciate worship from petty humans rather, err, preposterous.

Emma are you a weak or a strong atheist? What lead you to that view, rather than agnosticism?

Heh, semantics? I mean, if you tell people you're an agnostic, they tend to assume that you haven't made your mind up and you're open to persuasion. I'm not open to persuasion.…

Any event that disrupts that belief system is usually pretty damn traumatic. For most folks it's a genuinely painful…

To sort of reply to Andrew and andin's comments, this is usually an argument I find myself somewhere in the middle of. I'm not a militant atheist. I used to be very much a 'who gives a fuck-theist', and…

My last close-up knowledge of him dates from the late eighties/early nineties, when he was slightly to the right of Labour Centre, but I have heard tell that before that, back in the Muldoon years, he'd been a raving Commie pinko.

Yes, being slightly to the right of the labour…

Jimmy's been ripping Twitter up this week.

Rodney Hide is not out of the question as a speaker because the key point is…

Where's our famed Kiwi reticence about religion?

Or was it more an unwillingness to talk about something that is complete bollocks, and just nodding in agreement rather than voicing the words. "Dont talk complete shit"

I have the spiritual impulses of a brick.

Me too. But it took a while…

Japanese Jehovah's Witnesses.

In our old house (down the road from the International Centre of a Christian school and round the corner from an evangelical church) we used to get this a lot, cute young Asian women who would ask if they could come in and 'practice their English'.

And…

Phil Goff? Couldn't you have found an actual liberal? Or at least someone from somewhere vaguely on the left side of the political spectrum?

Tut, tut, you haven't been keeping up with your kiwiblog have you? He's a well-known communist, actually. So he will fit right in at this event.…

Its the organised churches that bother me. Must be a comfort to many…

On one occasion I was invited to a party by…

Then there are the apples.

We love our apples, right? We're famous for it. And you know, if you cut an apple in half horizontally, there's a pentacle inside?

I quite often cut apples, for the kids at kai time, in a horizontal manner. It's actually a cool trick cos…

when the mormons came around and disturbed her sleep she'd stand there dazed and just let her robe slip until they ran away .....

We're having renovations done at the moment. This has meant me sleeping on a mattress in the living room for some nights. Our living room floor…

And, absolutely true story:
One weekend I answered my door to find a pair of attractive young women, who asked "Can we come in and play with…

We get Mormon missionaries round central NY, even. Dudes, your religion is from here...

When I was younger I was a magnet for the religious crazies.

That's funny, I tend to attract atheist crazies who expect me to accept personal responsibility for the Crusades. And The Holocaust. And every kiddie-fiddling clergyman, regardless of denomination. Then things take a weird and creepy turn.

Unfortunately, this…

Not at all, although the implications are disturbing: hypothetically, if the organisers wanted to go on a real bender, who's to stop them inviting Rodney Hide?

It has the makings of an extremely dangerous drinking game.

Would that be a Bad Thing?

Not at all, although the implications are disturbing: hypothetically, if the organisers wanted to go on a real bender, who's to stop them inviting Rodney Hide?

Yes, they might have to ratchet up the drinking part of the equation to compensate methinks.

Would that be a Bad Thing?

Phil Goff? Couldn't you have found an actual liberal? Or at least someone from somewhere vaguely on the left side of the political spectrum?

Yes, they might have to ratchet up the drinking part of the equation to compensate methinks.

Creepiest experience ever was when I was about 13 and I had fallen asleep in the sun in our back garden only to be awakened by a middle aged JW man standing over me who said "you were so beautiful sleeping". Total ick.

Eeeeewww!

"Didn't know he was bleeding lost", I reply.

But my curiosity is piqued, because I agree you often see…

I've found that barking loudly like a dog gets JW's, Mormons and the like to leave you alone.

Why be so elaborate?

Anyone who knows me will tell you my default position is almost pathologically polite (OK, until about the third drink) but I find a simple, fierce 'PISS OFF'…

Or so I deduce from the biblical Latin apple/evil link. It's not something that comes up in everyday discussion.

Unless one tends to attract religious crazies. But my recent resurgence of interest in the apple-evil was down to the latest QI annual, I think.

The star inside the apple thing…

offer you a "free" book in return for a donation

Quite a while back they could have made a friend for life of someone I know who would like nothing better than free literature, until she found out it wasn't free.

I've found that barking loudly like a dog gets JW's,…

Mormon: Excuse me, sir, ...
My wife: Mate, I'm a girl, and I don't want to hear about your dumb-ass religion.

At which point, the second Mormon broke out laughing

Ha, literal LOL with attendant odd looks from colleagues.

This certainly used to be the case, before I had children and socialised with other parents.

Ah. Forced social interaction with mundanes. There's your problem.

My uni friends are still far more interested in discussing things like the viability of the bus exchange for Call of Cthulu LARPS – the…

Mormon: Excuse me, sir, ...
My wife: Mate, I'm a girl, and I don't want to hear about your dumb-ass religion.

At which point, the second Mormon broke out laughing.…

Do they miscount the points?

I think the problem is not so much maths as General Ignorance. And at least that conversation usually works out to be less offensive than the one where the other person has assumed I'm a Satanist.

I just really like apples.

Also possibly going somewhere where Christianity isn't already the dominant religion... What happened to the pioneering spirit? Is there nowhere you can go and risk getting cooked and eaten any more?

Should we find a new frontier, I nominate Garth George to be point man for proselytising the noble savages.…

When I wonder this, someone usually points out to me the large pewter pentacle I wear all the time...

"Are you Jewish, then?"

Do they miscount the points?

And I ate my last apple for lunch but now I'm dying to cut one in half

It was more fun than I expected, no alcohol, but whisky flavoured coffee, and much, much risque humour. We cut out, got a truck load of wine & retiured to the nice hotel we'd booked.

On…

Or a Hare Krishna at the door come to think of it, with or without tasty stuffed pastries.

We used to live up the road (91) and around the corner (95) from the Hare Krishna temple in Bealey Ave. It was excellent for tasty comestibles.

I'm not interested in knowing,…

Is there nowhere you can go and risk getting cooked and eaten any more?

Germany?…

Surely if you're going to be missionaries there should be some kind of hardship involved?

Can I be the first to say – well, they have to live in Christchurch, don't they?

(Not a ninja.)

How awfully disappointing.

And you're certainly getting my share – never met a missionary. Or a Hare Krishna at the door come to think of it, with or without tasty stuffed pastries.

Where's our famed Kiwi reticence about religion?

Alive and well over here. I don't even know the religious beliefs of most of my friends, unless you count things like nWoD vs oWoD or 3.5 vs 4e (as opposed to "not at all"). I'm not interested in knowing, they're not interested…