a $1.5M house in Mt Victoria costs 65 times median income in NZ.

Let me be clearer to avoid pedants:

A $1.5M house in Mt Victoria costs 65 times median income of a taxpayer in NZ.

But not all taxpayers earns wages and salaries as many are retired, or full-time…

Individual income is not a great indicator of class / socio-economic group. So NRT's figures are valuable, but the more interesting one is household income after tax.

Even then it's dodgy. Part of what Emma is seeing is that income tends to rise with age.

Which relates to confusion about…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0DUsGSMwZY

Then turn to John Hughes in the 80s. 'Pretty in Pink', or 'The Breakfast Club' for two examples. You'll see so many up-turned collars you'll want to have one yourself.

If you trace back all the 'retro' fads of recent decades, you'll remember that the late '70s / early '80s…

The up-turned collar thing has been around for a very long time, read Georgette Heyer for good descriptions of Regency collars.…

Many of the parents at our kindergarten choose for their children to go to one of the 3 schools in Mangere Bridge, and just as many choose for their kids to go all the way to Onehunga, instead of going to any of the local Mangere schools. Elitism is alive…

This man stole, knowingly from the mouths of the babes.

Insofar as it was public money, yes he did.
Anyone remember Keith Hancox, who was jailed in the early 90s for embezzling a whack of corporate dosh from the Sports Foundation? While the relative amounts stolen might have some bearing…

what a disgusting object.

Please note I resisted any rogering suggestion-

People still have a hard time understanding why we moved from Mt Albert to Sandringham, with our decile 5 school, when others had moved away to avoid it. Long story, but overall we are totally happy we did. Having Voila and Satya round the corner doesn't hurt either

Good move,…

The one good thing about British cars is they are so easy to work on. This fact is handy because it is something you will find yourself doing every weekend.

This certainly applied to the Vitesse in question. The only time I remember it not being in pieces was just…

Come and talk Triumphs to my husband sometime...

Did I tell you about the Triumph Mayflower which was a model from the 1950s that was powered by a 4 cylinder engine that was very similar to the one that..........
Oh! never mind.

Things like that seemed very important to people I met in suburbs such as Fendalton.

Fortunately, these people can be irritated at very little cost to yourself simply by pronouncing their suburb "FENdltin" instead of "fenDAHLton".

What about apartment dwellers?

Well, in the UK, if the council provides it for you, then you're working class.

If you rent it yourself, you're middle class.

It held as important one's origin down to details of which boat of the original settlement fleet they were on. Things like that seemed very important to people I met in suburbs such as Fendalton.

I once had a job where part of the work involved getting the correct postal…

I imagine it's a not-dissimilar situation with Christchurch's first settlers?

Don't worry, we are negotiating a special place for 'boat people'. Eventually we'll be able to resettle Christchurch.

[Coat]

Those I met on the other side of the tracks had very firm views about those who laid claim to being from the first ships.

A memorable quote from one of the supporting characters in Archer's Kane and Abel was along the lines of "If everyone whose descendants claim that…

none of the aforementioned Triumphs, regardless of engine size, could pull the skin off a rice pudding.

There were other cars of the era that wouldn't be able to stir a rice pudding.
But I was not defending the marque. It was more to show the incestuous engineering development of…

Now, that is what I call full use of real estate agent speak!

I once saw a sign for Upper Bryndwr. I've never been able to figure out how it wasn't Papanui.

I think we have reached car threadjack nirvana.

Yeah sorry.

BTW none of the aforementioned Triumphs, regardless of engine size, could pull the skin off a rice pudding.

The Vitesse ran a 1600cc 6 cylinder engine derived from the 6 cyl. Vanguard made using a smaller bore.

I think we have reached car threadjack nirvana. All I can say is 'I did not know that!' And perhaps, sorry?

A Triumph Herald with a Vanguard 6 motor shoehorned in

Just a correction in the evolution of Triumph engines:

The Vitesse ran a 1600cc 6 cylinder engine derived from the 6 cyl. Vanguard made using a smaller bore.
The Vanguard 6 cyl. 2000 engine was developed from the 4 cylinder…

a "niche pocket of Linwood".

Now, that is what I call full use of real estate agent speak! That must mean that it is an area that closely borders another suburb ( not Philipstown, Bromley or Aranui) and that it's ratio of abandoned supermarket trolley's per km is less than…

First ton accomplished (Marine Parade, 12.40 a.m 1968.)

Was it June? It's just I was born then ;-)

Classic!

Not pleasures to mix at all, at all...

Re: cars. My first car was a 1948 Morris series E. Putter putter. It was with great pleasure, when my mother offered to loan me her Mark 6 Zephyr, that I accepted. First…

Yeah, so what's Newmarket then? The rear exit?

It's like that old joke about Auckland: If Wellington is Te Upoko o te Ika (a Maui Tikitiki a Taranga), then...

Hark, the Herald axles swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LomlkOvalUY

Do you think we can turn one of Emma's threads into a Top Gear thread?

I'm willing to try. The Vitesse sure did handle rather oddly. But then they used to race Hillman Superminxes (which I owned) and Minxes. The suspension on those defied logic,…

. . . a very good friend had a Triumph Vitesse . . .

A Triumph Herald with a Vanguard 6 motor shoehorned in, and weird diagonally-mounted twin headlights. Quick, but fatally undermined by the dodgy Herald swing-axle rear suspension. Hark, the Herald axles swing.

No, it is achievable if you are happy enough to move to "Ganglands Linwood". $100k got us some grass in 1997.

I live about two hundred metres from a sign advertising a new subdivision as being in a "niche pocket of Linwood". FFS.

Yours,
The silly, non-sentient creature of Sandringham.

[Tautology]

What about apartment dwellers?

Defined by square footage/building amenities, maybe?

"Oh, that's simple.

If your 'garden' is a patch of dirt out front with an old car up on blocks sitting in the middle of it, you're working class.

If you have a garden and tend it yourself, you're middle class.

If you can afford to pay for a…

When you have tasted Olive oil and can only seem to grow tomatoes and silver beet in your backyard vegetable garden successfully.

If you can grow tomatoes and silverbeet, there are no excuses for not being able to grow spinach, lettuce, or courgettes. Really.

(Okay, except not liking them, but…

The number of people I see getting into management then complaining to me about the hours, the stress, the pressure, is something – and enough to make me NOT to want to seek out management positions.

When you have tasted Olive oil and can only seem to grow tomatoes and…

Was the partner..um.. touched? (Priest and all that)

I'm not sure how these things work but apparently it was when Pope John Paul 2 visited NZ and had big outdoor masses and a few select people got communion from/with? him personally.

Not only unrelated, but frankly, who cares?

I care. I care very much...We should all care about poor Michael. After all he is part of our wonderful world.

If we belittle him then we are influencing peoples thoughts of him.

In our own special way we are socially engineering the…

And as a postscript I should mention that my partner was once blessed by the Pope.

Was the partner..um.. touched? (Priest and all that)

How far north? I believe they need cold, cold winters to really flourish. I know of growers in Otago and near Raetihi. But I hope you can grow them--they are more than beautiful--probably the most luxurious and sensual flower ever.

The Otago one is just up the road…

Unrelated, but Danyl has discovered that Lhaws' mystery woman has her own blog.

Not only unrelated, but frankly, who cares?

Well I confess that I did follow the link, but . . . once there, it took all of 30 seconds to evoke an image of shining a light…

How far north?

Peria. Far far north. Hot but, it is quite cool in the bush so never say never, or it might be orchids....
@ Islander Bush is all good. I am happy, that I only have to make our garden in the bit cleared for the house and…

Her gardens (small now, because there's a limit to what an 83yrold arthitic person can do) are a free delight for all visitors and many passersbye.…

Unrelated, but Danyl has discovered that Lhaws' mystery woman has her own blog.

Not only unrelated, but frankly, who cares?

: my peony Now aren't they a beautiful flower. I am sooo looking forward to creating our new garden up north. I hope I can grow Peonies.

How far north? I believe they need cold, cold winters to really flourish. I know of growers in Otago and near Raetihi. But…

A satisfying perfumed pretty garden. Anyone could have it, if they want.

Yeah,…

That's why I didn't say great to get it done. I'm guessing there is lots of work between drafts.

But even so getting that first (nth?) set of words down even if few of them make it to the final ... that is a great feeling even for my much…

If you have a garden and tend it yourself, you're middle class.

All the women in my family are really keen gardeners. But. We've recently moved into a working-class neighbourhood, and the back yard is a working-class garden. Clothesline, huge vegetable garden, compost heap, lemon tree, berry bushes – nothing…

The scary thing is how it lingers for decades.

Like I said, it's not actually part of the DNA if you're from the UK, but it might as well be.

I suspect that work and best attire is far less of a social marker than what one wears to dig the garden.

Oh, that's simple.

If your 'garden' is a patch of dirt out front with an old car up on blocks sitting in the middle of it, you're working…

Except it's not just income.

Plan A: wins Lotto tonight, orders the new modified Atomic. Waits

impaitently until Monday when it is couriered to Big O. Places carefully

in van, and drives happily ever after-

Yes taste accounts for class also. :)

Those wot has money are middle class, those wot has none are lower, and filthy rich scum are upper class. If you manage to fit in with any of these groups in spite of your income, good for you.

Except it's not just income. As I said, my father earned…

impaitently until Monday when it is couriered to Big O. Places carefully

in van, and drives happily ever after-

But I'd endorse what Steve said upthread. You don't really know a class system until you've experienced it in Britain. It's no mere measure of income. Sometimes it felt like these people were from different races.

The scary thing is how it lingers for decades. My husband left England at…

As a child I had class, apparently. One time my Mother told…

Considering that one of these, which is in fact made in Italy, will set you back approximately $40, you belong to class "silly" along with most other owners of espresso machines.

I got my fancy-assed espresso machine as payment for services rendered, and you can have it when you prise…

How about we just make simpler. Those wot has money are middle class, those wot has none are lower, and filthy rich scum are upper class. If you manage to fit in with any of these groups in spite of your income, good for you.

Or we can learn what…

Them wot works for an hourly wage are working class, and them wot works for a salary are middle class.

That seems pretty arbitrary, even in New Zealand. And it wouldn't work completely in many other countries where hourly rates are not what determines a salary, only overtime. Factory workers…

Laughed!! I fell off my chair. Boom Boom.

Bloody lip shooters.

....He could have made a special trip to NZ you know....

I got a laugh out of this too.

So, I currently make coffee in my teapot. I couldn't be bothered shelling out for another glass plunger, especially since…

Where your theory falls down (and Bill's, and Gerry's) is that George currently lives in Australia.

Laughed!! I fell off my chair. Boom Boom.

Bloody lip shooters.

....He could have made a special trip to NZ you know....

It was just either link to that, or bellow for Megan.

Hey!

or political science.

Double hey.

But, yeah, Rich, as I explained over on that other thread, I'm informed it's kind of a rural look that has crossed over to the merivale ladies who lunch. Or, if you will,…

I do remember my 18 yr old flat mate hiding under the pool table once when the cops came in to roust the joint I've no idea how she ever got away with that

I do. The underneath of the pool table can make a very good bed at midnight…

Considering that one of these, which is in fact made in Italy, will set you back approximately $40, you belong to class "silly" along with most other owners of espresso machines.

I've owned both. I definitely used the machine way more. It's just a whole lot quicker. But the simpler…

You occasionally see blokes in suits and ties around the university but they must vice-chancellors or pro-vice chancellors (are there any anti-vice chancellors?) or SIS spies.

And my ex-finance-industry history lecturer, the only bloke under about seventy on campus who wore suits and ties.

Jeez George. Maybe Bill and Gerry are right. We MUST be catching Australia since you can afford to buy a $800 bike!!!

Where your theory falls down (and Bill's, and Gerry's) is that George currently lives in Australia.

We were so poor I used to have (literally) pudding bowl haircuts.

But we 'appy.

One of the first people I met when I arrived in NZ was the Prime Minister, David Lange

I lived with Muldoon for three nights at…

My $50 bike broke down irreparably two weeks ago. I needed transport, so I walked into a store and bought a new $800 one.

Jeez George. Maybe Bill and Gerry are right. We MUST be catching Australia since you can afford to buy a $800 bike!!!

Phew...we can rest easy.

But then, there's a small matter of making the story and the characters actually work...

That's why I didn't say great to get it done. I'm guessing there is lots of work between drafts.

But even so getting that first (nth?) set of words down even if few of them…

which is why it has been a bit of a marathon, Ben W – and you are so right – the race isnt over…

We all wore our collars up in the 80's

Hmm we did. didn't we – & some American teenagers went that one bit further a couple of years back....

http://www.tressugar.com/Douchebag-Pops-Four-Collars-Once-902714

You occasionally see blokes in suits and ties around the university but they must be ... academics who teach something called management studies.

My MGMT101 lecturer was less formally-dressed than the majority of his students, and that looked to be the case with most of the faculty.
The contrast was…

I expect the next time I'm in one will be my funeral?

Why bother? I am sure your would look as serene in a comfortable shirt. A jacket isn't going to keep you any warmer in the soil. ;-)

One of the great pleasures of academic life is is not…

Yes, he had gone to King's (Christ's?) College in Chch.

F**k that wank!

Mine's a Bells tea bag, milk two sugars .. leave the bag in, there's a luv .. ta.

Um, it came up on one of David's threads. It's a Merivale Matron thing, though I'm pretty sure it's also a Sloan Ranger thing. Short blonde bob, string of pearls, standing-up collar. Even if you are also wearing gumboots.

I too am unfamiliar with the standing-up-collar thing (as I am…

Ah, missed that thread. I was off-grid on a UK visit. Carrying out first-hand anthropological work on the class phenomenon (see my edit above).

Oh, no worries, don't expect anyone to read everything. It was just either link to that, or bellow for Megan.

So there!

Cf here.

Ah, missed that thread. I was off-grid on a UK visit. Carrying out first-hand anthropological work on the class phenomenon (see my edit above).

standing-up collar

...whut?

We are not making this shit up. Surely you have those in Remuera?

Cf here.

They both make great tasting coffee, but the italian one doesnt make much of a craema (sp?). Also its nice brass handle fell off.

But yeah, a cheap no-name stove-top mocha can make pretty good real coffee,…

Short blonde bob

'k. I get that.

string of pearls

Yep, sweet.

standing-up collar

...whut?

Interesting post/thread, but. I recently returned from a UK trip, which was a rather jolting reminder of how considerations of class in the UK colour every single thought and action of every person born there…

One of the first people I met when I arrived in NZ was the Prime Minister, David Lange

A man who, as a child, tried to hide his middle-classness by refusing to wear shoes to school.

Can someone please explain to me the significance of the turned-up collar as a…

(You'd probably scorn my cheese purchases, though.)

BTW, what class points do we get for having a coffee machine that hasn't been within six ten thousands miles of Italy, and was paid for with FlyBuys points?

Considering that one of these, which is in fact made in Italy, will set you back approximately $40, you belong to…

Did anyone else find it disturbing to discover Emma drinks instant coffee?

No — I adore the granulated coffee-like caffeine-delivery mechanism substance, because if I had to depend on (and pay for) the "real" stuff. to preserve my sanity, I'd doing a serious lag for armed robbery.

(BTW, what class…

Just wondering if anyone else has remained suitless.

I wish.

Al Capone's Haberdashery and Bullet Shop

I simply cannot stop laughing at this. An actual tear of mirth rolled down my cheek.

If you teach at One of the Ten Worst Schools in Auckland, According to Metro (TM), are you more working-class than someone who teaches at Auckland Grammar? (Someone…

Just wondering if anyone else has remained suitless.

I'm 42. Not only do I not own a suit.... The only time I've even worn one was my wedding day.

I expect the next time I'm in one will be my funeral?

So who you jivin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqgXzPfAxjo

Kyle, can you just look over into that corner in your memory, and then answer me this question: are there any chicks?

that corner existed for a long time – it was where the poets and artists and CP hung out – or glared at each other as various factionalisations…

yet he employs thousands of staff and earns a pretty decent salary. Any definition which lumps him in with the working class needs some large grains of salt.

I think you'll find no sane definition of working class that does such a thing. But I was basing myself purely on…

His mother was still working class, I'm afraid, it's very hard to lump teachers with the bourgeoisie.

Ownership of the means of production has it's place, but my father doesn't own any capital in his workplace, yet he employs thousands of staff and earns a pretty decent salary. Any definition…

So people become multi-class? You have to start at zero XP in the new class, though.

No, that's dual-class. Multi-class means (to a certain age of Gamer) that you put half (or appropriate fraction) in each.

(I deny the existence of 3rd ed, or anything which came after it, except…

Does it make the food taste better? My father-in-law was recently taken aback when I told that I have never owned a suit (other than a crushed velvet horror in the 1970s). Just wondering if anyone else has remained suitless.

Actually, the point I was trying to make about owning…

Is there some kind of cheat code for this?

Winning Lotto and not quitting your job is a classic cheat.

Beware anyone who has learned Accusations of False Consciousness, though. Run from them until you've mastered the counters.

Is there some kind of cheat code for this?

Yes, and yes. But there are particular abilities and advantages that can transfer across both classes and really help out, like being observant, and a good mimic, and having great boobies.

Forgot too, in that metaphor, you can't gain any further XP in your old class. So your old party…

I can't remember the exact details, but it was something like his mother was head of a department in a decent secondary school and his father had a management job.

His mother was still working class, I'm afraid, it's very hard to lump teachers with the bourgeoisie. With managers it…

I know stuff'n'shit

or vice versa

transfer across both classes and really help out, like being observant, and a good mimic, and having great boobies.

I guess 2 out of 3 doesn't cut it in these stakes.
Anyway I've been perversely protective of my descent through the classes of NZ. It's curiously not that far to…

He was also right. Go figure.

I can't remember the exact details, but it was something like his mother was head of a department in a decent secondary school and his father had a management job. His analysis I think revolved around the fact that they didn't own the means…

Yes, and yes. But there are particular abilities and advantages that can transfer across both classes and really help out, like being observant, and a good mimic, and having great boobies.

And therein is the secret to my success. (bwah-ha-ha)

Oi, I'm a council worker! I know stuff'n'shit... :)

Prove…

He was a friend of Chris Trotter's and used to hang out in the corner bar of the Cook as part of that crowd.

Kyle, can you just look over into that corner in your memory, and then answer me this question: are there any chicks?

Just wondering if anyone else has remained suitless.

My partner. I was going to say "every man I've ever owned", but in fact my ex-husband had a tail-coat.

Did anyone else find it disturbing to discover Emma drinks instant coffee?

Just had one now. And in another minute, if I…

I went through student politics with a person who claimed to be working class because his mother was a teacher. We sniggered but he was adamant.

He was also right. Go figure.

I went through student politics with a person who claimed to be working class because his mother was a teacher. We sniggered but he was adamant.

Teaching is unionised. Therefore working class. Certainly not a profession anyway. Something like that.

Like Isabel, our family has sort of bobbed around on the class border for the last couple of generations. My mother was a teacher,

I went through student politics with a person who claimed to be working class because his mother was a teacher. We sniggered but he was adamant.…

Does it make the food taste better? My father-in-law was recently taken aback when I told that I have never owned a suit (other than a crushed velvet horror in the 1970s). Just wondering if anyone else has remained suitless.

Me. Although in my early twenties we were going to…

I bought a dinner jacket a few years ago

Does it make the food taste better? My father-in-law was recently taken aback when I told that I have never owned a suit (other than a crushed velvet horror in the 1970s). Just wondering if anyone else has remained suitless.

Because…

So people become multi-class? You have to start at zero XP in the new class, though.

Maybe not multi-class. Just maybe good at faking it for one or the other.

Or maybe it's just a matter of not caring either way.

I'm not sure you do, either, but I think maybe you develop the ability to move between them?

So people become multi-class? You have to start at zero XP in the new class, though.

Did anyone else find it disturbing to discover Emma drinks instant coffee?

No, I found it empowering. Now I can confess my own dirty instant coffee secret. Sometimes, if the milk is too low to make a latte, I'll drink instant, sometimes even more than one cup. Also coffee bags…

your chances of making it into the top 40% are just 4%

Only 4% do. Which isn't quite the same as only 4% can. Some of the problem for that bottom 40% is even realising a different way of existing is possible.

That said the US is incredibly class conscious,…

As for changing class, I'm not sure you really do change class but making the transition from being able to buy one Greggs spice per week to just shopping for food you like is definitely a good transition.

I'm not sure you do, either, but I think maybe you develop…

But is it any less weird than the familiar trope that class does not exist in any concrete form in New Zealand, because it can be transcended ? This it seems, is essentially what Key and Clark stories tell us.

The trouble with that one is that it happens just…

Oh and all this discussion about a dress and no picture?

As for changing class, I'm not sure you really do change class but making the transition from being able to buy one Greggs spice per week to…

How often do people beg you for money walking around NZ?

Every day. A window into poverty that comes with every city-centre apartment!

I suspect they don't mention that in the Property Press.

pats 899 pages of ms*

Ooooohhhhh! Goody goody goody.

I don't do squees but suffice to say that internally I am doing little whoops of joyfulness.

That actually sounds even nicer than a squee. A multiple squee?.

I'm pleased to have elicited this revelation. As for the race, well, I may not have 899 pages, but I'm also not…

Like Isabel, our family has sort of bobbed around on the class border for the last couple of generations.

When I think about it, my grand-parents peered out of Alan Bennett's various memoirs of his parents. "Class" was a test of character — you might have several payment to make…

I'm mildly upset by the fact that my…

Also, my Nanna didn't really believe in buying clothes from shops. You did for yourself.

My nonna was only ever allowed to own one non-black dress – it was green. Green! – but soon enough there was a wedding or a funeral and her mother in law made her dye…

Really? My Nanna and the Dowager Duchess of Devonshire had one thing in common — the firm belief that spending money upfront on something comfortable, practical and stylish that would last several decades before turning to rags was eminently sensible.

Really. While the dress is awesome, it's not practical. Also,…