Public Address | Cafe | Up Front: Respectably-Dressed Sensible Demure Lady Stroll

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 12 Jul 2011 20:32:37 +1200

SlutWalk was basically a franchise operation. So the organisers of any particular SlutWalk were always locals.

Oh, quite. But I think Richard was being a teeny tad disingenuous because, yeah, can we all just take as read that the Global Femme-Borg Collective doesn't exist? Really. Please.

Emma Hart

Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:47:21 +1200

And I suspect many Western feminists would be (or should be) very leery of swinging into Mumbai and giving Indian women a good scolding for not being sufficiently "authentic".

SlutWalk was basically a franchise operation. So the organisers of any particular SlutWalk were always locals.

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 12 Jul 2011 15:39:49 +1200

ETA: And yes, SlutWalk is culturally-specific. That’s because it’s a protest against an aspect of Western culture. Ergo, it may not translate well in other cultural contexts. Why should it have to?

And I suspect many Western feminists would be (or should be) very leery of swinging into Mumbai and…

Emma Hart

Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:31:53 +1200

Which is lovely but not at all what SlutWalk was about. And seriously: *giggle* and "pwetty"? We couldn't engage on the issue without demeaning the people involved? I mean, there are two messages:
– stop blaming victims for being raped, and
– the way a woman dresses is irrelevant to…

Richard Wain

Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:58:37 +1200

Rather late to this one buuut I've been trying to find a dissenting article I read somewhere from an American feminist on Slutwalk – but can't, however today ran across this Slutwalk: Walk of Shame or McFeminism? by an Indian feminist, which says the same kinda thing from her perspective...

SlutWalk…

BenWilson

Tue, 28 Jun 2011 09:56:45 +1200

ooooo, fine distinction between slutty and sleazy. Topic for another thread perhaps?

Emma Hart

Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:14:10 +1200

Watching people watch me and Megan going to SlutWalk was awesome! SlutWalk was awesome! Derby was awesome! After-derby drinking was awesome! Getting told off by derby girls for being too sleazy? Priceless.

Oliver [Redacted]

Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:21:03 +1200

Tom and Emma, certainly. I fear the hat made my head look even more freakishly large than usual

Kyle Matthews

Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:55:41 +1200

Just saw Megan saying her bit on TV1 news. Spiffy.

+1. Good job.

Megan Wegan

Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:08:10 +1200

Heh. Spiffy? That word would be more suitably applied to Emma, Oliver and Tom, surely?

Photos of Slutwalk WLG now online.

I am stealing one of those (If I may)! Thank you.

Kumara Republic

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 04:14:55 +1200

Also, is Alasdair Thompson the Simon Whipp of employer lobbyists? Not in the sense of militancy, but pushing one's luck.

Kumara Republic

Sun, 26 Jun 2011 03:27:22 +1200

Photos of Slutwalk WLG now online. Unfortunately couldn’t join the march proper due to work commitments.

Russell Brown

Sat, 25 Jun 2011 18:41:03 +1200

The TVNZ web story refers to "hundreds of skimpily clad" people. It's fairly staggering how inaccurate a characterisation of the actual crowd this is.

Robert Urquhart

Sat, 25 Jun 2011 18:18:54 +1200

Just saw Megan saying her bit on TV1 news. Spiffy.

nzlemming

Sat, 25 Jun 2011 10:19:57 +1200

Looks like a lovely day for a Slutwalk in Wellington. Sadly, while I had planned to be there, health issues mean I won't be leaving the house today. I hope it goes well for everyone.

Jackie Clark

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:29:51 +1200

Couple of points – Emma, nice job in the Listener, and re Listener article, finished most of it, seems to sum things up fairly well.

giovanni tiso

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:41:04 +1200

which isn’t on anyone wearing a bustier tomorrow

I think it's a long bow to suggest that she was blaming the skimpily dressed. And I think there is some truth in the fact that thinking that you can usefully redirect the prurience of the media is misguided. (See under: people…

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:32:43 +1200

I thought the point about how the media would always pick up on the prurient angle was reasonably well made.

Up to a point. I’d have been more impressed, though, if she’d unequivocally put ownership for that where it belongs – which isn’t on anyone wearing a bustier tomorrow. To…

giovanni tiso

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:19:19 +1200

Do hope she’ll leave that waggling “false consciousness, bitches” finger at home. Sorry, I know I checked out a while back but it needed to be said.

I thought the point about how the media will always pick up on the prurient angle was reasonably well made. The more general…

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:12:03 +1200

Tracey Barnett in the Herald. She’s going, dressed as a radish.

Do hope she'll leave that waggling "false consciousness, bitches" finger at home. Sorry, I know I checked out a while back but it needed to be said.

Here's now I see it, Trace, perhaps it's not the women who…

giovanni tiso

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:32:17 +1200

Tracey Barnett in the Herald. She's going, dressed as a radish.

nzlemming

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:32:23 +1200

Much of the commentary is surprisingly readable, too.

BenWilson

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:32:16 +1200

That's heartening to see in a big publication.

Deborah

Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:30:25 +1200

Because of reasons, I was quite excited to see this op-ed in the Dom Post this morning.

Slutwalk takes aim at rapists

Susan Snowdon

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:03:04 +1200

I think there was a comment at some stage about the abuser being too intoxicated to comprehend lack of consent. Again, not an excuse, just a factor.

Julie Fairey

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 16:54:45 +1200

I heard a bit of it and was concerned that we always always seem to talk about the behaviour of the person raped, prior to, during, afterwards, but never the behaviour of the rapist. I didn't hear all of it though, so was hoping that there was some bit I…

Kate Hannah

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:53:53 +1200

Right – given I'm fighting off seasonal affective disorder with new shoes and workplace hilarity, would you suggest that it would be better for my health to avoid listening? I'm happy to have opinions on things I haven't listened to at this late stage in my highly opinionated career..... and…

Danielle

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:07:44 +1200

I only heard a bit of it, but the part I heard irritated me. (I am particularly likely to be irritated by the way this issue is discussed, though.)

Kate Hannah

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:01:45 +1200

thanks: will have a listen and see if the discussion is more reasonable than the hideous promo which was well beneath Ms Ryan

Russell Brown

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:03:17 +1200

Did they mainly focus on alcohol abuse by the abuser or by their victim?

That was my immediate response, yes.

Isabel Hitchings

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 23:49:56 +1200

I thought that the interviewees pointed out simply that a lot of sexual abuse was associated with excessive alcohol consumption

Did they mainly focus on alcohol abuse by the abuser or by their victim?

Susan Snowdon

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 23:28:07 +1200

It’s still wrong to rape drunk people.

Yup. No-one's disputing that.

nzlemming

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:59:33 +1200

I couldn’t see any reason to hate on the interview really

It’s still wrong to rape drunk people.

When the discussion is all about the intoxication, the point of the rape is minimised.

ETA I'm glad to hear, though, that they weren't into blaming the victims, but it is avoiding…

Susan Snowdon

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:16:04 +1200

I didn't hear the promo but I did listen to Kathryn Ryan's interview. I thought that the interviewees pointed out simply that a lot of sexual abuse was associated with excessive alcohol consumption . Which it is – fact. Just saying. They were also at pains to emphasise that they…

nzlemming

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:16:01 +1200

Please someone who listened to Nine to Noon fill me/us in on the report

Sorry, I thought the same as you when I heard the promo and turned it off. You can download it here if you want to hear it.

Jackie Clark

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 17:27:29 +1200

Back to slutwalk, I'm somewhat disappointed because I had sort of rounded up a number of us decidedly middle aged women to march. But it appears I have a date with a very special dog on that day, so it looks like I won't be there.

Che Tibby

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 16:27:47 +1200

on subject: why Stuff.co.nz is advertising the biography of an American nutbar's daughter is beyond me, but... warning on content for how she lost virginity to that sterling chap levi johnston.

Kate Hannah

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:50:01 +1200

I'm at work, working (natch) so didn't listen to it, but Katherine Ryan did a ghastly intro on monring report about what was coming up on nine to noon – something about new research into the use of date-rape drugs than seemed to boil down to "it's the way the…

Sue

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:41:40 +1200

Note first: My discussion of this film & the links may act as triggers for people, so don;t read on, or emma edit this if you feel appropriate.

In watching a Jodie foster film on TV. I'm reminded of 'The Accused' which she won an academy award for, it's from 1998,…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:16:36 +1200

But the one place where there was never any peril – unlike, say, the real world – was within the family itself.

Because nuclear families never have their 3 Mile Islands, right?

giovanni tiso

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 12:55:24 +1200

But the one place where there was never any peril – unlike, say, the real world – was within the family itself.

Or church, one assumes.

Russell Brown

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 09:46:26 +1200

Another way of reading that of course is that while perceptions of male homosexuality have changed a lot in the last half century, in the case of women and rape and safety… not so much.

The cultural prejudices embedded into Sid Davis’s cautionary films are a thing to marvel at.…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 09:33:22 +1200

I may just have to do my headbanging dance

Jackie it's Wham so that should be handbagbanging

... living up to my role as a hater

giovanni tiso

Sun, 12 Jun 2011 09:32:29 +1200

Being able to dress in a particular way and drink alcohol (and not be raped) are basic freedom of expression and movement rights, on top of the right not to be raped. We shouldn't deprive potential rape victims of the right to dress in ways that show off their body,…

Kyle Matthews

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 22:41:29 +1200

I’ve been thinking about what’s so wrong about comparing rape prevention with theft prevention (not walking home alone is like locking your car, etc.)

They're fundamentally different actions. You have the right not to have your property interfered with, but no fundamental right to leave it unlocked – it's just…

linger

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 21:57:12 +1200

a lot of flicking of hair and groovy head action
And, well, that doesn't sound like George Michael's style at all .

Sacha

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 13:47:20 +1200

WINDLAND

likes

recordari

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 13:25:47 +1200

(just as the Hollywood one lost
its terminating 'LAND' early on...)

I don't know, WINDLAND has a certain appeal, with both literal and figurative relevance.

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 10:40:31 +1200

a city in denial...
there is no WIN
just thinking this could be a nice
sign for that Wellington Hillside...
...with a fallen 'D' at the end
(just as the Hollywood one lost
its terminating 'LAND' early on...)

BenWilson

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:26:12 +1200

If we all practice real hard and get those moves nailed we could have a PAS-Glee-style-FlashMob-for-WHAM! and it would be awesome.

Can I play the blonde coach lady?

webweaver

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 00:49:23 +1200

Crikey!

If we all practice real hard and get those moves nailed we could have a PAS-Glee-style-FlashMob-for-WHAM! and it would be awesome.

...although, the "one potato two potato" move with knocked knees at the same time looks a leeetle bit tricky....

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 21:51:39 +1200

Headbanging. To Wham.
Fortunately for the uninitiated, there’s this helpful video demonstration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZKnpxJxNf4&feature=related

Emma Hart

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 20:27:21 +1200

ETA: We just turned Emma's thread into Twitter. Oops.

And I said there was no WIN on the internet...

Lilith __

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 20:25:45 +1200

Everyone secretly likes Wham.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV9cw6oIvZc

Jackie Clark

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 20:09:39 +1200

this is special headbanging – there's alot of flicking of hair and groovy head action

nzlemming

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 19:52:28 +1200

So happy that I may just have to do my headbanging dance

Headbanging. To Wham.

Somehow, I think a few memos have been missed.

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:58:38 +1200

something not safe for work :)

NSFW is a much better name for a cocktail. Just sayin'.

ETA: We just turned Emma's thread into Twitter. Oops.

Islander

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:58:07 +1200

Hey! I thought we were saving ourselves for a Southern sojourn?

Jackie Clark

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:47:51 +1200

If we could have a Wham party, I would be very happy. So happy that I may just have to do my headbanging dance.

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:46:49 +1200

something not safe for work :)

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:37:51 +1200

What have I just signed up for?

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:33:20 +1200

we'll expect photos

Emma Hart

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:32:50 +1200

sounds like an interesting cocktail

Right, adding that to my To Do list for Wellington.

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:14:18 +1200

ladies (and Jack)

sounds like an interesting cocktail

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 18:12:33 +1200

ladies (and Jack).

Can I keep this? It so made me squee.

Danielle

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 17:52:25 +1200

I believe this is where we say 'fuck the haters', ladies (and Jack).

Bart Janssen

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 16:44:42 +1200

a PAS Wham! appreciation party

That should take about 15 minutes :P

Amy Gale

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 14:41:39 +1200

Okay, we are obviously WAY overdue for a PAS Wham! appreciation party.

...in November? (she asks hopefully)

B Jones

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 14:17:36 +1200

They were still 14 year old girls listening to Wham, sneaky-smoking behind the school, giggling uncontrollably, reading poetry at the same level as anyone else their age, bitter on their parents, no clue about their future, etc, etc.

Yes, but think for a second about what most 14 year old…

Rich Lock

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 13:48:50 +1200

I wish to disagree that smoking is "feminine".

I see your Malboro man, and raise you a Holly

And I raise you both with a Lauren Bacall.

My hand, I believe.

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:56:45 +1200

Gio, (your name autocorrects to GUI, in case you didn’t know) we’ve had our differences, but my neck hurts from nodding agreement.

And Emma re Wham party. Totally!

BenWilson

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:55:12 +1200

Me too. I intend to be doing a lot of them _with_ Emma very soon.

I'm still not over having sneaky smokes. In fact, I expect to be having one in about 15 minutes...good afternoon all, have a great Friday and thanks for what turned out against all my expectations…

Lilith __

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:54:31 +1200

there is a balance to be found between not shoehorning a child into social expectations that do not suit him or her, and teaching them how to get along

While I'm not a parent, I've certainly seen a lot of my friends raising kids, in varying styles. And I'm firmly…

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:46:34 +1200

Plus, gentle/unconditional parenting does not hold that your children never have to do something they don't want to do. It is not the same as laissez-faire parenting

How is 'unconditional' different than 'laissez-faire'?

Che Tibby

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:27:48 +1200

are you suggesting your femininity invalidates my masculinity?

Megan Wegan

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:23:10 +1200

I see your Malboro man, and raise you a Holly.

Che Tibby

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:14:07 +1200

Is a list of feminine things.

i wish to disagree that smoking is "feminine".

my other opinions about cancer sticks i will largely keep to myself.

Tamara

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:12:30 +1200

I didn't intend to give offence regarding your friends, so sorry about that. I would say that it's hard for me to know what you meant by "little shits" cause sometimes people just have unreasonable expectations of children so when they don't meet them they they are considered to be…

Emma Hart

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:52:18 +1200

Umm, I do quite a few of them too. Just sayin'. I don't smoke

Okay, we are obviously WAY overdue for a PAS Wham! appreciation party.

giovanni tiso

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:50:11 +1200

But I suspect that what you often saw was what looked like progressive parenting but was just lazy parenting!

No, I couldn't accuse the people I'm thinking of of being lazy, at all. They care about their kids just as much as my parents did or I do.

A lot…

Megan Wegan

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:45:55 +1200

Also… I don’t want to get too deep on this, but your list of “immature” things? Is a list of feminine things. I still do all that stuff, thanks.

Me too. I intend to be doing a lot of them _with_ Emma very soon.

Tamara

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:42:29 +1200

Thanks for linking to that Deborah. That was pretty astonishing and disturbing.

BenWilson

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:41:52 +1200

Also... I don't want to get too deep on this, but your list of "immature" things? Is a list of feminine things. I still do all that stuff, thanks.

Yeah, I think it's not a very helpful concept at all.

BenWilson

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:41:07 +1200

Re: age of consent. This is a fraught issue, something I find big parallels with drug policy on. We might very well accept that it's not a good idea to take some drugs, but progressive thought has at least accepted that people will do it anyway, and using a criminal…

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:37:09 +1200

Is a list of feminine things. I still do all that stuff, thanks.

Umm, I do quite a few of them too. Just sayin'. I don't smoke.

Emma Hart

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:36:09 +1200

Ben, obviously I wasn't clear before. The point of the whole "difficult to tell how old someone was" thing, was that you would be attracted to someone, and THEN find out how old they were. So, at least with the people I knew, it wasn't a conscious point-scoring thing, it…

BenWilson

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:21:35 +1200

Popularly, but erroneously attributed to Hugh Hefner

He'd be a real hypocrite if he claimed that now. He doesn't have 49 year old girlfriends.

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:17:56 +1200

You did put a generalisation disclaimer, but yeah, that must be some…

Tamara

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:16:41 +1200

Well, I have read a bit about this and also seen comments like yours. And of course, my family is a work in progress! But I suspect that what you often saw was what looked like progressive parenting but was just lazy parenting! If the approaches are implemented properly you…

Deborah

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:06:48 +1200

Holy fuck!

NB: Both the quotes below and the story may be TRIGGERING

A win for women at the Supreme Court of Canada last week in the J.A. decision also had a worrying subtext: All three dissenting justices who argued in favour of decriminalizing sex with unconscious “consenting” women were…

Danielle

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:06:43 +1200

listening to Wham

Some of us still listen to Wham!, you know.

BenWilson

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:59:35 +1200

My first sexual partner was 16 and I was 20. We were intellectual equals, and I'm damned sure it made her feel grown up and wise to have such a boyfriend. But I came to realize over the years we were together that she would never really be as "mature"…

giovanni tiso

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:47:35 +1200

But these even these little things all take away from a child's feeling of autonomy and control over their body. So imagine, a child who has been controlled even more than that is likely to internalise that kind of approach and treat other people the same way, once they have…

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:26:44 +1200

It's kind of why I love PAS.

Me too. Hope you don't think my redacted comment was a slight on you. It was actually about how I met my partner of 20 years. Best shared over a wine though I decided. Nothing too sordid, or even much relevant to this…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:26:03 +1200

We've probably all heard of the half-plus-7 rule of thumb. Popularly, but erroneously attributed to Hugh Hefner – it was mentioned in the 1953 David Niven film The Moon Is Blue.

Amy Gale

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:10:17 +1200

I asked about someone my age and they would allow 4-5 years anything else was eeck

Well, sure. It's gross that old people even want to date in the first place. We are all supposed to be off knitting and hanging out with our cats and drinking cups of tea.…

Emma Hart

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:08:30 +1200

Um, yeah, okay... I went to a school where, if you didn't ask, it was quite difficult to tell how old someone was. Not only did we have vertical forms (so your "home room" was a mix of forms 3-7) but our 5th form was about... a third? people having…

Raymond A Francis

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:05:13 +1200

Russell, I thought the change was the correct way to go at the time

Megan Wegan

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:04:51 +1200

This is the kids making it up themselves?

Raymond A Francis

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:02:56 +1200

Just wondering if I am the last to hear of this but I have been in contact with some European exchange students and they have a system where everyone is ranked out of ten (not quite sure how the ranking is done but they all knew their ranking) and you…

Russell Brown

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:01:37 +1200

Russell, when was the last time a couple of underage teenagers went through the courts for underage sex, I know it is still on the books but I am not aware of it happening in my neigbourhood

It's only been possible for both to be charged since the 2004 amendment…

Tamara

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:49:25 +1200

The issue of education has made me think. Isabel and Jackie made the points that occurred to me, and are often considered by feminist parents, gentle parenting proponents and child development experts. There's a whole continuum of behaviour concerning how we learn to relate to other people. I am trying…

Raymond A Francis

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:49:11 +1200

Russell, when was the last time a couple of underage teenagers went through the courts for underage sex, I know it is still on the books but I am not aware of it happening in my neigbourhood
The court action I mean, I am pretty sure human nature hasn't changed…

Russell Brown

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:40:47 +1200

So if 13 or 14 is ” way too young”, then almost certainly, there is no issue with the current age of consent, with perhaps a margin of one year. And perhaps where children are engaging in sexual relationships before 16, the answer is education, not prosecution.

And the establishment…

Megan Wegan

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:36:41 +1200

I can talk sensibly about consent and rape and slutshaming and all kinds of things. Frankly, given the tone of these conversations everywhere but here, I need a little levity on occasion. It's kind of why I love PAS.

I suspect there will be a scarlet letter in your mailbox…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:35:49 +1200

I’m sure that many 14 year olds are

And some 18 yr olds aren't. So should we have a "maturity exam" :). I probably wouldn't have passed 'til I was about 25.

This is one area where the law will always struggle, I'd prefer to have law in place that…

nzlemming

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:27:43 +1200

I once touched a boy’s knee. It didn’t lead anywhere, though maybe my hand was facing the wrong direction

I suspect there will be a scarlet letter in your mailbox soon. You could wear it to Slutwalk ;-)

Che Tibby

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:22:57 +1200

recordari

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:13:48 +1200

I do enjoy bringing a note of levity to these very serious conversations.

Is that allowed? Well, you are special I know, but since you opened the door.

[Redacted]
Yeah, nah.

Megan Wegan

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:11:33 +1200

It was...Well, I just wanted to scream at her, "what the hell are you thinking? I played barbies with you yesterday! You're a BABY."

But I was very aware that she wouldn't listen to me if I said that, and I felt the need to tell her some things -…

Deborah

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:59:20 +1200

I've got a lot of control over what I teach my children about sexuality and consent, and the need for respect for other people. We're talking about it already. But I have no control over what other people teach, or don't teach, their children. For every family who takes a…

Che Tibby

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:51:26 +1200

Hardest conversation I’ve ever had.

i can imagine.

an ex-colleague had the same conversation with his 15yo son, who had come to ask his parents approval to start said same with his same-age GF. they thought about it and said no.

almost immediately put the child on the “wrong track”,…

Megan Wegan

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:42:56 +1200

I do enjoy bringing a note of levity to these very serious conversations.

I once talked to the 14 year old daughter of a close friend, who came to me to tell me she was thinking about having sex with her 15 year old boyfriend. Hardest conversation I've ever had.

Che Tibby

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:32:34 +1200

GOOD LORD WOMAN!

TO THE WALK WITH YOU!

Megan Wegan

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:31:17 +1200

I once touched a boy's knee. It didn't lead anywhere, though maybe my hand was facing the wrong direction?

Che Tibby

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:13:45 +1200

hey… i know where these things lead to…

before you know it, they’re sitting in mcdonalds with their knees touching under the table.

SCANDALOUS!

Jackie Clark

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:07:45 +1200

Oh, god I hate the way you people make me think differently about things. Just stop it, would you? Funnily enough, for a woman who has no children, and who doesn't even teach teenagers, I think about the age of consent quite a lot. I keep writing stuff here, and…

Megan Wegan

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:06:27 +1200

“they can’t possibly be old enough!”

For handholding? You are getting old!

Che Tibby

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:59:17 +1200

i’ll reserve opinion considering the source of the info.

i will however state that my impending dotage currently makes me view 18-20yos as “children”. i see students wandering about town holding hands and almost always think, “they can’t possibly be old enough!”

oh, and,

Russell Brown

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:52:12 +1200

Which seems way too young to me.

Che Tibby

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:50:50 +1200

Most young people make their own decisions about when they are ‘ready’ to have sex, regardless of legislation

i've been doing reading on a related topic for work. the average age of sexual debut is decreasing year on year.

currently around 13 or 14 in relevant countries (e.g. UK, NZL,…

Russell Brown

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:49:49 +1200

Otherwise I just don’t see what’s any more magical about a two year gap, than there is about our current age of consent. Why is a two year gap acceptable, but two years and one day is not?

You might as well ask why 16 is okay when 15 and…

Russell Brown

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:46:21 +1200

I’m not happy about the idea of tiered consent, or more specifically, with the idea that a two year age gap necessarily makes it okay. I really, really, seriously want my 14 year old daughter (well, she’s 12 now, but she will be 14 in time), being pressured by some…

Deborah

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 07:11:05 +1200

I’m not happy about the idea of tiered consent, or more specifically, with the idea that a two year age gap necessarily makes it okay. I really, really, seriously don't want my 14 year old daughter (well, she’s 12 now, but she will be 14 in time), being pressured by…

Oliver [Redacted]

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 06:44:02 +1200

This all plays into rape culture – because our bodies aren’t our own. They are, on some level, public. Last night, I talked to a friend, who I hope will come on to expand on what I am going to say next. Talking about some of the comments upthread, and…

Amy Gale

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 05:25:29 +1200

Perhaps the ideal would be a two-tiered consent age. A lower consent age but a limit on age separation ie. a 16 year old and a 14 year old is ok but a 14 year old and a 25 year old is not ok.

I think there is also value…

Sam Vilain

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 02:07:25 +1200

Perhaps the ideal would be a two-tiered consent age. A lower consent age but a limit on age separation ie. a 16 year old and a 14 year old is ok but a 14 year old and a 25 year old is not ok

The standard formula is [[http://xkcd.com/314/|half your…

BenWilson

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:14:08 +1200

The first Love Of My LIfe was a scrape under three years older than I, and I was ready for sex well before he was.

Goodness me, I was perfectly ready, in a physical sense, for sex at the age of 12. I sorely doubt it would have done me…

Lilith __

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:12:45 +1200

Not sure if anyone's linked to this already: SlutWalk Stockholm's list of sexual assault prevention tips.

My favourite: "10. Carry a whistle! If you are worried you might assault someone “on accident” you can hand it to the person you are with, so they can blow it if you do."…

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 22:11:59 +1200

Perhaps the ideal would be a two-tiered consent age. A lower consent age but a limit on age separation ie. a 16 year old and a 14 year old is ok but a 14 year old and a 25 year old is not ok.

This is basically what the Labour…

nzlemming

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 19:35:45 +1200

I just refuse to accept that a French word is being used to adjectivise an Italian city.

That's the English for you.

bmk

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 19:30:43 +1200

Thanks – that is similar to other experiences I have found. No doubt there are situations with power imbalances but there are plenty of other cases where the girl is mature enough to decide for herself if she wants to sleep with a slightly older guy.

The strict adherence to…

Emma Hart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 19:25:10 +1200

Say you have a 16 year old male with a 15 year old female who want to have sex with each other, is this wrong? And if you say it is then with the genders reversed is it still wrong?

Yeah... the reason I was going out with guys older…

bmk

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 19:19:48 +1200

It didn’t help that most of what we heard about the sexual encounters of our friends were the girls who were mostly shagging older guys, and the guys who were mostly shagging younger girls. Everything about that speaks of power imbalance, and statutory rape is all over it.
Yes it…

Jackie Clark

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:48:23 +1200

Oh Isabel, you made my day. That is exactly right. I do it all the time with our kids – and teaching boys, in particular, to recognise how someone feels just by looking at them. When nonverbal communication is so important, as it is in Pacific Island cultures in general,…

Isabel Hitchings

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:34:40 +1200

At the very least, I think the concept of consent needs to be an important part of sex education in schools.

And earlier than that (though not neccessarliy in a sexual context) . Today I explained the concept of active consent to a group of five and six year olds…

BenWilson

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:10:45 +1200

The most important thing to do would be to change the way ordinary people think about sexual assault.

FWIW, I think most people's ideas about sex form during puberty. That includes rapists. Not sure how that helps, but I think changing adult thinking is pretty damned hard. So:

some people…

Lilith __

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:08:49 +1200

I've been thinking about what's so wrong about comparing rape prevention with theft prevention (not walking home alone is like locking your car, etc.)

1) The "stranger danger" myths about rape have been well debunked upthread. You're much more likely to be raped by someone you know and trust, so…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:04:56 +1200

I knew that would happen. It is how it has always been spelled in my head ...

To be fair, it's mostly how people spell it in English. I just refuse to accept that a French word is being used to adjectivise an Italian city.

Gee

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 17:00:40 +1200

In very simple terms Megan’s observation of signs in Samoa that say “rape is wrong” feels like the right approach to me.

– See, I think that's too simple an approach for New Zealand culture. People know rape is wrong, because that's the thing that happens to women in dark…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:53:26 +1200

So how about this, I know there are Green party folks who read here, how about you draft a change in the law that does precisely what is above. If you do that and make it part of your platform I'll change my party vote to Green (even though you…

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:51:47 +1200

I hope you’re intending to purchase the right consonants and vowels.

I knew that would happen. It is how it has always been spelled in my head ...

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:46:22 +1200

I will go and purchase the ingredients I require for a delightful spaghetti bolognaise.

I hope you're intending to purchase the right consonants and vowels.

Emma Hart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:41:24 +1200

The slutwalk FAQ contains some specific aims:

What we would like to see in the short term is a change in law say that there is NEVER any merit in bringing up a victim's sexual history, as it is NEVER a mitigating factor in sexual assault [currently, defence lawyers have…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:37:27 +1200

we are not ‘animals’

And that is the determinist side of the debate which I knew was a possible path for my thoughts. But I think (and I use the term think to indicate I don't know) that if you are aware of propensities that are genetic then it becomes…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:28:33 +1200

someone had been an arsehole

I can try if you like – I've been told I'm quite good at it :P.

So I kind of feel that with the ideas and experiences shared so far we should have something happening. Yes Demure Lady Perambulation is happening but my cynical side…

Islander

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:26:33 +1200

An addendum from an asexual:
would-be rapists do not see a person – they see a target. Something to be used.
I look wholly female – big breasts, wide hips, an obviously female face.
I have no female sexual urges – or responses- whatsoever.
I’ve been targetted twice, by would-be…

Dinah Dunavan

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:24:37 +1200

Arriving late to a discussion can be frustrating.
Has anyone else linked to this?
Not a humourous subject but I still laughed a lot.

Humans are supposed to able to make rational choices, we are not 'animals' (ok pedants, we are but you know what I mean).

I'm sure…

Emma Hart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:19:15 +1200

thought I admit, my first reaction on seeing the number of comments was "Oh lawd, 13 pages already? This can't be good..." Colour me pleasantly surprised.

Heh, I think I actually said at the Welly Great Blend that if one of my threads got over 300 comments, someone had been…

B Jones

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:12:18 +1200

This has got to be my third or fourth attempt to add something meaningful to this thread – the rest have been abandoned for various reasons. But what I'm taking from it is that 1, experiences of sexual assault are very very common (and inflicted on people far far too…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:08:11 +1200

If it helps, I was one of them, and I know of two others. I saw it before the diesmvowelling, and I burst into tears. At my desk. At work. For Reasons, I have pretty big issues with what you said (though I hasten to add that I have never…

Andre Alessi

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:53:51 +1200

I feel like I've benefitted an awful lot from reading this thread. It's extremely refreshing to read an intelligent discussion about rape culture that isn't a flame war (thought I admit, my first reaction on seeing the number of comments was "Oh lawd, 13 pages already? This can't be good..."…

BenWilson

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:53:30 +1200

I don't think the "not defining triggering" comment is entirely fair, though.

In your linked comment you say:

And yes, you can never tell what's going to trigger someone.

Which pretty much means it's got no definition that people can use as a guideline. I mean, lets face it, the…

Emma Hart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:19:06 +1200

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't limit things. Some of what I deleted was simply too personal and the telling felt like betrayal. Other things were potentially triggering on the definition you never gave, but I felt it likely to have meant, after the first disemvowelling.

Ben, honestly, I didn't…

BenWilson

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:05:30 +1200

However. I don't see how noting that something might be "triggering" acts to shut down or limit a conversation.

I guess a whip around of how many people can read my comment that you disemvowelled on account of being triggering would be illuminating. I'm not saying you shouldn't have done…

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:01:40 +1200

Mngh, see, I still feel like I can't really talk about this.

Sorry. And fair point about "triggering". I was just trying to give some form to thoughts about language that have been knocking around inside my head.

And now, having freed up disk space and performed sundry maintenance tasks…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:50:22 +1200

There is no WIN

This should be made into a sign and placed above the gates of the Internet, Dante-style.

Megan Wegan

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:46:43 +1200

However. I don't see how noting that something might be "triggering" acts to shut down or limit a conversation.

And it is probably something that is worth erring on the side of caution on.

Emma Hart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:38:22 +1200

In that Stroppery thread we ended up with Vicki Anderson's affectionate story about Anika Moa and her wife as a manifestation of "rape culture".

Mngh, see, I still feel like I can't really talk about this. But I'm hoping it was clear enough publicly that some of us were Really…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:36:21 +1200

If it was a product of culture it would vary more between different cultures and I don't think it varies much at all.

Whether or not it varies is highly contentious, because the juridical and discursive notion of what constitutes rape varies significantly between countries. So it's not just a…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:24:07 +1200

What information was in the word "triggering" that wasn't already in the words "using mass rape as a weapon"? The word sometimes seems to have a role beyond its ostensible one.

Yes, you're quite right. Let's say that reading the article is even more triggering than my summation of it.…

3410

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:21:10 +1200

I saw this film in the weekend;
powerful stuff about the male/female dynamic in Afghanistan, 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DentE2ydnMI

Susan Snowdon

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:52:52 +1200

A very moving/distressing documentary on Maori tv the other night, called Lumo. About the treatment of women for terrible rape inflicted injuries in a pretty basic hospital in Goma in the Congo. (A fistula hospital, to repair ripped vaginal/bowel/bladder walls -no chance of children or marriage, incontinence, smell, social pariah-ism…

BenWilson

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:51:36 +1200

without consent it is a violation and a form of violence, isn't that true?

It was a meme, promoted by the staunch feminists of my childhood that "rape is not about sex, it's about violence". I don't really know if it's true, it seems to me that coupling the two…

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:47:16 +1200

I have issues with the idea of a “rape culture”. To me it suggests that we know of a culture where rape doesn’t exist, as far as I know that isn’t true and has never been true.

I fully get the concept and why it really matters, but I'm sometimes…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:33:05 +1200

somehere in between

It's always somewhere in between.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:31:33 +1200

I think that’s too simple an approach for New Zealand culture. People know rape is wrong

Yah know I'm not so sure. If what you are saying is we need to be clearer about what rape is then OK. But I actually think there are people who don't really think…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:28:04 +1200

this opens a whole biological-determinist can of worms that I think is a distraction from the issue of rape prevention

I agree and that's not the way I want the discussion to go either. More a case of rape being about the rapist and approaches that deal with that, be…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:23:37 +1200

there’s a supposition on your part that all rape is violent

Um yeah I think so. Even if you imagine the most gentle act of sex, if it is without consent it is a violation and a form of violence, isn't that true?

Lilith __

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:13:30 +1200

If it was a product of culture it would vary more between different cultures and I don’t think it varies much at all

Bart, this opens a whole biological-determinist can of worms that I think is a distraction from the issue of rape prevention. I don't think using the term…

Joanna

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:35:30 +1200

In very simple terms Megan’s observation of signs in Samoa that say “rape is wrong” feels like the right approach to me.

See, I think that's too simple an approach for New Zealand culture. People know rape is wrong, because that's the thing that happens to women in dark alleys…

Jackie Clark

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:25:39 +1200

Bart, there's a supposition on your part that all rape is violent – do you mean violent as in the wider understanding of the word? Or do you mean in a more micro way? I've been in situations that were inherently violent, but not physically so. And the incident I…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:02:55 +1200

And that behaviour is what, entirely genetic and not at all the product of culture?

If it was a product of culture it would vary more between different cultures and I don't think it varies much at all. I think there is evidence that it is possible to promote it…

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:59:07 +1200

An interesting analysis of the extent to which some men think that all women are sexually available.

I remember the Colorado case unfolding. The political thicket around it was astonishing. Check this weird "it was the government's fault" analysis on the Fox News site, by a member of [[http://ifeminists.com/e107_plugins/enews/enews.php|this Randian…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:55:29 +1200

It isn’t about a culture causing them to rape. It is about a culture that has failed to figure out how to stop them raping. That’s why I dislike the “rape culture” thing, it feels like explaining rape as part of the culture.

Not so much the culture causing them…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:54:29 +1200

It isn't about a culture causing them to rape. It is about a culture that has failed to figure out how to stop them raping. That's why I dislike the "rape culture" thing, it feels like explaining rape as part of the culture. Instead it's part of the behaviour of…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:52:09 +1200

And from that very same blog, the point that there's no such thing as "good" girls and "bad" girls.

If we are dedicated to promoting the collective power of girls and women, we cannot police their sexuality in an attempt to make girls “good.” For girls like Hope Witsell–whose photos…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:51:23 +1200

Below might feel like me being patronising, if so I apologise, it’s just me trying to sort ideas out and “thinking out loud”. Part of it is just the way I’ve been trained to think (not implying I think "better" but it's a particular bias in style of thought), part…

Deborah

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:39:59 +1200

An interesting analysis of the extent to which some men think that all women are sexually available.

Dominique Strauss-Kahn and the myth of consent

In the Colorado case, one of the attorneys for the raped women asked the football players a most telling question: “How many female students here at…

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:39:56 +1200

I wouldn’t want to draw a line that leads directly to Key and Henry and Veitch, but policing the language of our public personalities is not a meaningless exercise.

Not at all.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:21:45 +1200

Paul Henry’s an easy target. But if you’re going to propose that he’s “the acceptable face of rape culture”, then you have to say the same thing, and more, about John Key sitting next to Tony bloody Veitch and scoring women out of 10.

Well, then let's do that. I…

BenWilson

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:19:29 +1200

AND, it appears to mean "patronising", and we already have a word for that, it's "patronising".

Which is, interestingly, a totally gendered word. There's no word for womansplaining that I'm aware of, although I'm happy to be enlightened. I guess "nagging" is the closest we've got, a telling pointer about…

Emma Hart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:09:30 +1200

I'll be happy never to hear that fucking idiotic word again. But hey, it's just me.

It's not just you, you know. And it's not only that it's used to push men out of discussions. It's also that it conceals the fact that women do exactly the same thing. AND,…

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:03:44 +1200

doing my planned critique of Henry's 60 Minutes profile for PAR

My sympathies. Might be easier to just focus on the decor of his wee bach..

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:46:25 +1200

Well, I’ll quite happily withdraw from the discussion if I’m being destructive – and no, folks, that’s not a flounce.

No, Craig, you have more right than most of us to be here in this discussion. You are truly valued. But I have made a couple of moderation calls where…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:44:37 +1200

I actually have more problem with mansplaining

I'll be happy never to hear that fucking idiotic word again. But hey, it's just me.

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:41:44 +1200

I was just concerned that a good and productive discussion was not going to be helped.

Well, I'll quite happily withdraw from the discussion if I'm being destructive — and no, folks, that's not a flounce. I've got a piece to re-write from scratch in an hour, because I'm increasingly…

Sacha

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:41:36 +1200

it's all that black – absorbs all the light and traps the heat – then radiates it out to the surrounding area, ergo: local warming

Genius

Megan Wegan

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:34:55 +1200

I have my problems with some of the use of “rape culture”, as I do with a bunch of other terms (mansplaining, ‘bingo squares’) that I feel are sometimes used to dismiss people or shut down discussions. But only sometimes.

I actually have more problem with mansplaining, as it is…

Russell Brown

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:34:25 +1200

Thanks. I have similar qualms. And yes, only sometimes.

I…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:29:46 +1200

And that essence makes them the custodians of everyone’s morality, which is why they aren’t allowed to be sexually agressive – or in some respects sexual at all.

I believe this is the "internal chastity orb" Emma and I cackle over occasionally.

I will watch that doco when I am…

Emma Hart

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:27:15 +1200

I do have serious misgivings about the careless use of the phrase "rape culture"

I have my problems with some of the use of "rape culture", as I do with a bunch of other terms (mansplaining, 'bingo squares') that I feel are sometimes used to dismiss people or shut down…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:26:07 +1200

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:15:47 +1200

Could we please have a local Godwin’s law where you lose when Paul Henry or Michael Laws are invoked as the Moby Dicks (possible pun) of New Zealand.

I'll quite happily not heap that insult upon the injury whales already have to endure. Anyway, where that dim-witted duo are concerned…

Megan Wegan

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:07:35 +1200

The thing is, so many things go into what we term “rape culture”. It isn’t just the physical act itself, the victim-blaming and slut-shaming. It’s the idea that women are, on some level, to some people, property. To be taken, to be shared, to be, as someone up thread mentioned,…

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 09:58:23 +1200

Could we please have a local Godwin's law where you lose when Paul Henry or Michael Laws are invoked as the Moby Dicks (possible pun) of New Zealand.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 09:46:37 +1200

Perhaps, just perhaps, rapists won’t rape when we all live in a media culture where men like Henry and Michael Laws aren’t enabled – and rewarded – for derogating women like Stephanie Mills who don’t conform to their heterosexual white middle class cis-male privileged idea of how “real” women look,…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 09:26:20 +1200

I do have serious misgivings about the careless use of the phrase “rape culture”, and I thought yours was careless.

Well, that’s your call. I did have a rather precise point to make which you made it crystal clear would be deleted on sight.

I’ll repeat something Emma said at…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 09:16:18 +1200

Cloister home...
I’d blame the nuns for global fucking warming if I could figure an angle...
...it's all that black – absorbs all the light and traps the heat – then radiates it out to the surrounding area, ergo: local warming. Not too mention all that driving around on Vespers!…

nzlemming

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 08:42:00 +1200

I’m only just recovering from seeing Hilary Calvert on Backbenchers

How long does it take for TVNZ to put that stuff up on demand?