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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Up Front: Or It&#039;s Who We&#039;re Drinking With...</title>
		<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/</link>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
			<language>en-us</language>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=276386#post276386</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=276386#post276386</guid>
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						<p>I am delighted to say that I've just arranged to do an interview with the lead researcher on this, Frank Pega. I directed him to this piece, and he was delighted by the "insightful commentary". </p><p>So. If any of you have brilliant and insightful questions you think I should be…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:17:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Islander</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=276032#post276032</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=276032#post276032</guid>
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						<p><q>especially to GLBTTIF experience of the workplace. Found next to zilch. So, PSA and Vic uni have started a research project.</q><br />I  would also be seriously interested – especially if you could include asexuals (I realise we are rare – but we are.)</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 22:11:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=276004#post276004</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=276004#post276004</guid>
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						<p><q>So, PSA and Vic uni have started a research project.</q></p><p>Yeah? I'd be interested to hear more about that.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:15:21 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kirsten W</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275905#post275905</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275905#post275905</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						You're right.  There's pretty much no funding for sexuality research.  Did a scan to see what's been done post homosexual law reform and BORA to look at whether those bits of legislation have made any difference, especially to GLBTTIF experience of the workplace.  Found next to zilch.  So, PSA and…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2012 09:19:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275612#post275612</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275612#post275612</guid>
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						It's still fresh in my memory, it was earlier this year. I'm still getting random associations flooding back of her at strange times, often brought on by touch. Today was full of them, and also full of touching, and man hugs and every other kind of hugs. Her son, my…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:42:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Sacha</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275590#post275590</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275590#post275590</guid>
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						<p><q>She held on back like a child</q></p><p>That resonates. thank you.</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:53:34 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>kmont</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275584#post275584</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275584#post275584</guid>
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						It is super lovely to hear a male perspective on hugs. I think kiwi men are going to get huggier in time.
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				<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:20:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>kmont</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275583#post275583</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275583#post275583</guid>
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						Exactly this. It is profoundly confusing and depressing. It feels so much more performative to kiss a woman in a bar than you always want it to be.
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				<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 10:14:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275581#post275581</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275581#post275581</guid>
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						<p><q>Presumably more Bis are drinking due to social isolation seeing as they're a smaller proportion of the population</q></p><p>Smaller than straights? Yes. Smaller than gays? No.</p><p><q>are we going to see Auckland (for example) as the getaway city for Bis to go to like Sydney traditionally has been for teh…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 09:59:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Jackie Clark</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275573#post275573</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275573#post275573</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Touch is a powerful thing, as Bart says. I spend much of my life hugging people (and dogs), and you can tell a bit about a person from the way they hug, I find. I have only fairly recently come to an acceptance that other people don't like to hug/touch…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 05:52:21 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Islander</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275570#post275570</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275570#post275570</guid>
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						<p><q> still remember how amazing it was to get my hair washed by someone else after having three days at home alone </q></p><p>Interesting.<br />I have no difficulty with hugging or hongi-ing* &amp; I especially like to clasp/shake/touch hands BUT!<br />I personally cannot stand anyone touching my hair/head.<br />I've cut my own hair…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2012 00:27:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Megan Wegan</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275567#post275567</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275567#post275567</guid>
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						<p><q> She held on back like a child, and listened and smiled, even though I could tell the words weren’t really getting through. It didn’t matter. </q></p><p>When I was little, I loved nothing more than to play hairdresser with my grandmother. I'd give her mohawks and spikes and I think I…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 23:20:19 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Megan Wegan</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275566#post275566</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275566#post275566</guid>
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						<q> Part of that change is generational, partly because I’m now in an artier and more liberal milieu. I also know a lot of people who live with depression, PTSD or other mental illness, and I think many of my friends are aware of the value of Platonic touch (as Ben,…</q>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 23:13:16 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Megan Wegan</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275565#post275565</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275565#post275565</guid>
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						<q> See, I’m looking at it from this perspective. If I’m young, and same-sex attracted, and a woman in a bar is kissing me, how do I know if she’s attracted to me, or if she’s kissing me because she wants a man to find her attractive? Consider, for a moment,…</q>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 23:10:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Pete</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275564#post275564</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275564#post275564</guid>
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						<p>Presumably more Bis are drinking due to social isolation seeing as they're a smaller proportion of the population &ndash; are we going to see Auckland (for example) as the getaway city for Bis to go to like Sydney traditionally has been for teh gays?<br />Being Bi in Cromwell, Blenheim or…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 23:03:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>RaggedJoe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275536#post275536</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275536#post275536</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						I know some Chilean guys who I see at various places around the world for work.  Greetings are always a big back slapping hug, which I generally manage to stuff up with a handshake in the middle.  Whilst it is just a business relationship, it is a really warm and…
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:54:09 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275534#post275534</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275534#post275534</guid>
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						<p><q>I was brought up a bit like that, with middle-class English stiff-upper-lip detachment.</q></p><p>I've never really thought of it as resulting from my upbringing. It's the general social environment as I recall it. It's not like I was hugging and kissing my Pacific Island and Maori mates, or the Chinese,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:38:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Tom Beard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275532#post275532</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275532#post275532</guid>
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						<p><q>So, hugging. Massages. Non-consequence snogging.</q></p><p>That arrived ... a bit later in my life. I obviously hung out with the wrong people at varsity.</p><p>One thing that helped break the ice for me was discovering dance in my early twenties. It was initially a shock to be in physical contact…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:19:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Josh Addison</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275528#post275528</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275528#post275528</guid>
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						I remember hearing that it was the trial of Oscar Wilde that put an end to public touching in British society; that before that it was common for male friends to walk arm-in-arm and so on. Depressing if true.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 15:53:07 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275523#post275523</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275523#post275523</guid>
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						<p><q>Among my geeky cohort at varsity there was not a lot of touching, either</q></p><p>But &ndash; </p><p><q>all that touchy-feely stuff was for the crazy arts students</q></p><p>Oh. Yeah. Called it.  Our group was mostly sciencey boy-nerd types. But there were enough arty geeky girls to offset that, and because of…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 15:13:56 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Jeremy Andrew</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275522#post275522</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275522#post275522</guid>
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						Anyone who's not too busy or cool to watch Shorty might have seen a very good example of the power of a hug the other night...
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 15:01:24 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Tom Beard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275521#post275521</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275521#post275521</guid>
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						<p><q> can't do either one, not for male friends. An overlong handshake is about where it ends. Putting arm around shoulders, sometimes. And any number of jocular male touches &ndash; friendly arm punches, pushes, seizing, back patting, high-fiving. Not so much with women.</q></p><p>I was brought up a bit like that,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:53:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Lucy Stewart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275520#post275520</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275520#post275520</guid>
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						<p><q>We hold hands with lovers, and with children. And that’s it.</q></p><p>I remember having an <em>excessively</em> awkward conversation with my mother, sometime at the beginning of puberty, about why it was no longer okay for me to hold my father's hand in public. I didn't see how it was any…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:16:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>B Jones</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275515#post275515</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275515#post275515</guid>
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						<p><q>She reckoned it was a big part of why old ladies get their hair done so frequently &ndash; it's a legitimate excuse to be touched by someone.</q></p><p>I still remember how amazing it was to get my hair washed by someone else after having three days at home alone with…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:30:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>John Armstrong</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275514#post275514</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275514#post275514</guid>
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						<p><q>I do find it such a pity that our culture has developed taboos around touch. We are tremendously affected by touch, much more than we think. So I find it sad that the act of touching, carressing, hugging have such restrictive boundaries.</q></p><p>I became acutely aware of this during a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:25:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275511#post275511</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275511#post275511</guid>
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						<p><q>But I'm allowed to full-body hug my friends (except those who don't like it, and that's personal not social) but I can't hold their hands walking down the street.</q></p><p>I can't do either one, not for male friends. An overlong handshake is about where it ends. Putting arm around shoulders,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 13:05:39 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275503#post275503</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275503#post275503</guid>
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						<p><q>The idea that every touch is interpreted as a sexual overture is just wierd.</q></p><p>My elderly grandmother (since passed) said a few years ago to me that one of things she most missed since granddad died (over 30 years ago) was physical contact. She reckoned it was a big part…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:46:14 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275499#post275499</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275499#post275499</guid>
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						<p><q>Is there any right or wrong about it? Doesn't seem any more fucked up than, say, the rule that you should never touch a Thai on the head.</q></p><p>My 'logical pattern loving' brain says there should be a continuum of touch, and the more extensive the touch, the more it's…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:23:59 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275497#post275497</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275497#post275497</guid>
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						<p><q>Or at least, ‘holding hands’ in our culture seems a bit fucked up.</q></p><p>I do find it such a pity that our culture has developed taboos around touch. We are tremendously affected by touch, much more than we think. So I find it sad that the act of touching, carressing,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:09:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Megan Wegan</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275485#post275485</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275485#post275485</guid>
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						<p><q>Unless you find that “playing into the patriarchal narrative that faux-same-sex-attraction will get a guy to think you are hot” is annoying in itself.</q></p><p>Hate the game, not the player. Mostly. </p><p><q> There’s also the assumption inherent in the wording “straight girls who kiss each other in bars” that kissing each…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 07:54:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Amy Gale</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275484#post275484</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275484#post275484</guid>
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						<q>There’s a question on (internet dating site) OK Cupid, that asks “straight girls who kiss each other in bars are…”. I’ve never been able to bring myself to look at the possible answers, but imma go ahead and assume that one of them isn’t “often playing into the patriarchal narrative…</q>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 06:41:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>BenWilson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275483#post275483</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275483#post275483</guid>
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						<p><q>Or at least, 'holding hands' in our culture seems a bit fucked up.</q></p><p>Dunno, it's just how it's done. Is there any right or wrong about it? Doesn't seem any more fucked up than, say, the rule that you should never touch a Thai on the head. It sends a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 03:38:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275459#post275459</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275459#post275459</guid>
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						<p><q>A huge part of this is the social conditioning we have that we are unaware of. Snogging is part of sex, holding hands is not, but why?</q></p><p>This is a really interesting question. Or at least, 'holding hands' in our culture seems a bit fucked up. We hold hands with…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:50:31 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Tom Beard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275458#post275458</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275458#post275458</guid>
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						<p><q>Well, no, because I don't find it annoying.</q></p><p>Unless you find that "playing into the patriarchal narrative that faux-same-sex-attraction will get a guy to think you are hot" is annoying in itself.</p><p><q>Well, much</q></p><p>Yes, I suppose there are always ... exceptions.</p><p><q>if indeed it is two drunk girls pashing…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:47:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Megan Wegan</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275455#post275455</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275455#post275455</guid>
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						Well, no, because I don't find it annoying. Well, much. I find the cultural biases behind it frustrating (if indeed it is two drunk girls pashing because someone told them to), but mostly, I don't give a shit who is kissing.
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:19:21 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Tom Beard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275454#post275454</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275454#post275454</guid>
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						<q>There’s a question on (internet dating site) OK Cupid, that asks “straight girls who kiss each other in bars are…”. I’ve never been able to bring myself to look at the possible answers, but imma go ahead and assume that one of them isn’t “often playing into the patriarchal narrative…</q>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:14:32 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275453#post275453</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275453#post275453</guid>
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						<p>My own social conditioning was rammed home really forcefully in the middle east when I saw men walking holding hands &ndash; because that is just normal there.</p><p>Why did I react at a gut level as if it wasn't?</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:12:53 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275452#post275452</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275452#post275452</guid>
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						<p><q>    Is it an improvement that Katy Perry has given permission for (straight?) chicks to snog each other at parties?</p><p>I’ve been thinking about this overnight, and I have mixed thinkings. Yes, it’s more acceptable than it was for two women to kiss, and certainly more acceptable than for two men.…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:10:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Megan Wegan</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275449#post275449</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275449#post275449</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>But for me it contributes to that feeling that that side of my sexuality is faked, performative, done mostly for the benefit of others. It reinforces the idea that bi women are just straight attention-seekers.</q></p><p>And not only is it performative, but that your sexuality exists <em>for</em> the male gaze.…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:15:01 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Brent Jackson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275448#post275448</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275448#post275448</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>... a fully-employed tax-paying property-owning hyphenating member of society</q></p><p>Lol.</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 15:07:29 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275430#post275430</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275430#post275430</guid>
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						<p><q>In some cases, it’s entirely the underlying stuff that’s driving demand for intoxication; in others, drinking problems cause the other problems. </q></p><p>Agreed. Recognition of that duality is important.</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 13:19:52 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Eric Crampton</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275426#post275426</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275426#post275426</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Both can be going on at the same time, Hebe. In some cases, it's entirely the underlying stuff that's driving demand for intoxication; in others, drinking problems cause the other problems. Where alcohol or other intoxicants are used as self-medication for other pre-existing problems, sometimes it makes things better and…
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 12:59:17 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275411#post275411</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275411#post275411</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Is it an improvement that Katy Perry has given permission for (straight?) chicks to snog each other at parties?</q></p><p>I've been thinking about this overnight, and I have mixed thinkings. Yes, it's more acceptable than it was for two women to kiss, and certainly more acceptable than for two men.…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:20:31 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>TracyMac</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275325#post275325</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275325#post275325</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Too right with what George says about so many more people out there who won't/can out themselves as bi because they can get along ok (for how long, I wonder) with expressing one side of that binary. It really frigging is depressing. It was depressing 26 years ago when I…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:09:03 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>George  Darroch</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275301#post275301</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275301#post275301</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q><br />Thanks for the post, Emma, and for once again reminding people that being bisexual is valid and real and sometimes you end up quite excluded. I never would've gone to something that said "lesbian" at their age, because I knew I would be told I wasn't gay enough, or was…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:26:34 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Stewart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275281#post275281</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275281#post275281</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						Onya, Emma, for another insightful post.  Covering both the bisexuality issue and the binge drinking brings things together nicely.  And while bi's might be drinking because of social exclusion (and I am firmly of the "binge drinking is generally a symptom, not a malady itself" persuasion) so many of the…
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:44:19 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Moz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275276#post275276</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275276#post275276</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Those social ills are the symptoms, not the causes, of alcohol abuse.</q></p><p>I read Emma's post completely the other way. I'm interested in how you conclude that (eg) social exclusion apparently due to bisexuality is actually caused by alcohol abuse rather than resulting from it. Do you think people only…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:07:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Tom Beard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275275#post275275</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275275#post275275</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>As for the binge-drinking &mdash; I thought it was anything over 3 drinks a day, so this 5+ news makes me feel a lot healthier ;)</q></p><p>IIRC, for adult men a "binge" is described as over 7 standard drinks in a sitting: lower for women and young people. But a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:05:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Tom Beard</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275274#post275274</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275274#post275274</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Yeah, as a friend put it on Twitter yesterday, their 'binge' is our 'dinner'. Which can be hugely problematic as far as drawing meaningful conclusions goes. But when you look at the quotes, the subjects themselves are clearly talking about 'drinking to excess', getting completely trashed.</q></p><p>That's the thing: while…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:00:41 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Hebe</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275262#post275262</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275262#post275262</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Some of the social ills tallied up for alcohol use often come down to the kinds of things that lead people to become heavy drinkers in the first place.</q></p><p>Eric, without getting into any form of  implied or stated insult to you, I wish to express how totally I disagree…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:26:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Gee</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275259#post275259</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275259#post275259</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q> I wonder (and this is a terribly cynical thing to say) if there was funding for alcohol research, but not sexuality research... </q><br />I read the report when you linked to it off Twitter, and I had the same question... <br />Thanks for the post, Emma, and for once again reminding people…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:17:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275251#post275251</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275251#post275251</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>...desperate need to find a replacement for Imperial dominance</q></p><p>I wondered why I had this occasionally craving to get off my face. Now I know. It's a substitute for mustard-gassing Kurdish tribesman, or other baby-bayonetting type activities.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:06:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275249#post275249</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275249#post275249</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Binge drinking is a symptom of underlying factors, rather than a problem in itself.</q></p><p>Yeah, which is the focus of the research. I wonder (and this is a terribly cynical thing to say) if there was funding for alcohol research, but not sexuality research...</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 16:04:38 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kumara Republic</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275247#post275247</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275247#post275247</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>You have a point here. Binge drinking is a symptom of underlying factors, rather than a problem in itself. Factors like peer pressure (‘whaddarya?’), depression, mental illness and hopelessness play a big part. In Britain, you can add the <a href="http://www.listener.co.nz/uncategorized/the-unbearable-lightness-of-being-english/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">desperate need to find a replacement for Imperial dominance</a>.</p><p>Even wealthy…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:59:33 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Eric Crampton</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275238#post275238</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275238#post275238</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>The 5+ standard is a nice way of getting really big numbers on problem drinking. Sometimes they'll use a 7+ standard for adults, which feels more like binging.</p><p>The $4.8 billion "social cost of alcohol" figure that gets bandied about for New Zealand relies on an assumption that anybody who…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:28:12 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275237#post275237</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275237#post275237</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p><q>Note that most of this lit calls binge drinking 5+ standard drinks in a single session. Or about two pints of decent beer.</q></p><p>Yeah, as a friend put it on Twitter yesterday, their 'binge' is our 'dinner'. Which can be hugely problematic as far as drawing meaningful conclusions goes. But…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:19:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Eric Crampton</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275233#post275233</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275233#post275233</guid>
				<description><![CDATA[
						<p>Nice post, Emma.</p><p>Note that most of this lit calls binge drinking 5+ standard drinks in a single session. Or about two pints of decent beer. </p><p>The problems you note here are everywhere in the alcohol literature &ndash; it isn't just a failing around reporting around bisexual drinkers. Comorbidity between…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:07:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Tim Michie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275232#post275232</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275232#post275232</guid>
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						Add the self-medication for ones mental health from social exclusion and drinking as a social norm to fit in and the damage from frequent use and, well, it's not alcohol tolerance we need but the other kind...
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:05:20 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275231#post275231</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/up-front-or-its-who-were-drinking-with/?p=275231#post275231</guid>
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						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:05:20 +1300</pubDate>
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