Public Address | Cafe | Up Front: Oh, Grow Up

George Darroch

Fri, 05 Apr 2013 14:37:52 +1300

I have a philosophy degree. I suppose that makes me marginally more able to deal with certain questions. I felt a little grown up when I graduated. I felt a little philosophical. I did a history degree, and felt a little more grown up. And a little more historical. I…

Brent Jackson

Fri, 05 Apr 2013 01:05:10 +1300

My son dropped Philosophy this year (year 12), because although he loved the classroom discussions on morals, ethics, and other "big" questions, he was annoyed at having to do Religous Studies and Art History in order to get NCEA credits. I've been told that change is coming, but it'll be…

Stephen Judd

Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:50:47 +1300

You can do Philosophy at school in Australia (or Victoria, at any rate). My daughter did it and loved it. Led to some great conversations at home too. Talking about Nietzsche with 16 year olds is fun.

Tess Rooney

Tue, 02 Apr 2013 15:31:46 +1300

It possibly came about because of intergrated faith schools. Religious studies is a core subject at Catholic schools so perhaps they got NCEA qualifications for it. But I'm only guessing here.

Also yes, philosophy should absolutely be taught at school.

Geoff Lealand

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:57:45 +1300

New Zealand schools are more interesting places than when I went to school....

Geoff Lealand

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:56:03 +1300

There is also basic Psychology taught in NZ schools (eg Avondale College, Nayland College) with NCEA assessment at all three levels.

Emma Hart

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:55:42 +1300

You can teach Philosophy and get NCEA credit under other subject headings, such as Religious Studies and Social Sciences.

Yes, my son will get his first Religious Studies credits this year because of this. Which to me makes it even more ridiculous. Religious Studies is a more acceptable academic discipline…

johnno

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:50:48 +1300

One of the first indicators of approaching adulthood, was finding myself wearing a sensible coat to a gig, in case it rained on the way home. No, not an anorak.

Next was looking around and finding I was with all the other dads near the mixing desk, stroking our beards…

DexterX

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:45:48 +1300

My thinking was more along the lines of the teaching of Basic Psychology including Communcaition Styles, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy and Rational Thinking adn linking this to practical aspects such goal setting, problem solving etc.

Not Philosophy as such or the Philsophy of the Mind – the mind body question.

Geoff Lealand

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:30:07 +1300

You can teach Philosophy and get NCEA credit under other subject headings, such as Religious Studies and Social Sciences. My wife teaches Philosophy under the latter. There is an organisation NZ Teachers of Philosophy at http://nztap.net and apparently they are developing Philosophy NCEA Achievement Standards,

Sacha

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 11:07:26 +1300

you can't get NCEA credits in philosophy

that's ridiculous

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 07:38:33 +1300

e-piffunny?
logic is kinda fuzzy...
aah!
ergo:
Grey Matter...
Ha!

@ }:– )

Other pre-fast-breaking e-piffancies:

Go Easter for less dis-Orientation...

happiness is a warm fuzzy...

andin

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 22:08:25 +1300

My logic is too fuzzy for that.

Yeah well, logic is kinda fuzzy, funny that!

BenWilson

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 13:00:42 +1300

Not in general. You might be able to teach it for journalism perfectly well though.

Russell Brown

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:54:14 +1300

The irony of that is that you are a natural critical thinker, as I see it.

Thank you. But still probably not a natural teacher of it. My logic is too fuzzy for that.

BenWilson

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:43:15 +1300

had been asking me the kind of questions which implied a need for the kind of intellectual framework I’m not well-equipped to provide.

The irony of that is that you are a natural critical thinker, as I see it. Which shows that it's something picked up across many fields already…

Russell Brown

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:09:29 +1300

I think kids can do critical thinking courses in high school now.

Philosophy is taught in some primary schools now, as well as secondaries.

Leo, who hasn't been to school since form one (or whatever they call it these days), had been asking me the kind of questions which implied…

BenWilson

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 12:09:25 +1300

The problem is that, for some reason utterly beyond me, you can’t get NCEA credits in philosophy.

It's been part of the IB syllabus since forever, though? I remember a teacher in Portuguese international school telling me about how she taught philosophy back in 1993.

Emma Hart

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 11:37:26 +1300

I think kids can do critical thinking courses in high school now.

Philosophy is taught in some primary schools now, as well as secondaries. The problem is that, for some reason utterly beyond me, you can't get NCEA credits in philosophy. So the only kids who can afford to take…

BenWilson

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 10:50:20 +1300

I have often wondered why Communication Styles, Behavioural Therapy or Rational Thinking is not taught – that to experience any emotion starts with thought.

I think kids can do critical thinking courses in high school now. I don't know about the psychological ideas you're suggesting, though – they're quite specific,…

DexterX

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 05:01:20 +1300

On the "Oh Grow up" side of things – goings on in the house yesterday were telling:

http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/audio/1303/parliament_today_270313.mp3

Bleah – John Key – infantile – David Carter – dense.

DexterX

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 04:32:59 +1300

Behavioural Therapy should be taught in high school"

I have often wondered why Communication Styles, Behavioural Therapy or Rational Thinking is not taught – that to experience any emotion starts with thought.

This learning should start with the pre teens.

Islander

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 00:26:58 +1300

It can be pretty interesting comparing the behaviours of people who have mental illnesses or other emotional disorders and know they need to deal with this stuff, and "normal" functioning adults who don't, and don't. It'

Or have very close family members – or friends- who have the mental illnesses/emotional…

Ross Mason

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 23:06:38 +1300

Ben:
having begun my second undergraduate degree at the age of 41.

Moz: Comic Sans?

That would make knowledgeable Ben Bookman Old Style or Book Antiqua

Moz

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 22:56:08 +1300

admit I’m a grown up … All the while paying a mortgage, raising a child, managing people and all those other grown-up things

I guess that makes me a child of 40-something :) I haven’t managed anyone or employed anyone since I turned 20, have never owned a house or…

Moz

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 22:41:46 +1300

the font of all knowledge.

Comic Sans?

andin

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 20:23:23 +1300

Those lists of things people should be able to do to be proper… whatever. Men. Women. New Zealanders. Grown-ups. They’re normative and stereotype-reinforcing and they’re always going to make someone feel excluded and inferior.
Whats that called again ?'in grouping' or something. Huddle together to feel safe and warm. We…

Jackie Clark

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 17:33:47 +1300

I often don't feel like an adult. Even though I live a life with a lot of pressure, and stress – as many of us do – I really wish I didn't. My dearest wish is for someone else to take care of it all – train the dog, look…

Russell Brown

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 17:23:51 +1300

But dammit I still wear sneakers!

I bought another t-shirt from the Huffer outlet on Sunday. I feel anachronistically old when I do that.

BenWilson

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 17:20:06 +1300

you're an adult when you've decided for yourself what that means and how you want to answer it.

How many goes do I get?

Andre Alessi

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 17:08:29 +1300

Maybe adulthood is in the same category as other "meaning of life" questions: you're an adult when you've decided for yourself what that means and how you want to answer it.

Sacha

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:59:40 +1300

Emotionally we compare our insides with other people's outsides, a wise person once told me

Sacha

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:57:54 +1300

I'm now routinely being mistaken for a 20-something

youthful complexion

Raymond A Francis

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:45:43 +1300

Have to agree with that
One of the best times I have spent with my oldest son was as an Assistant Winemaker when he knew all and I knew nothing which allowed me to ask why

Sacha

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:44:36 +1300

easy

BenWilson

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:22:22 +1300

Everything else is just details.

Yup. Can anyone else pick the origin of this philosophical phrase?

"Be good, be kind, in whatever you say and do, and keep cool until after school".

Words to live by.

BenWilson

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 16:07:35 +1300

This question is kind of huge for me at the moment, having begun my second undergraduate degree at the age of 41. Nearly everyone else is a pimply teenager. It's quite a strange feeling to have the same mental age as them, as pertains to the subjects we're studying, but…

kalypso

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 15:07:26 +1300

This
An adult should be able to say “Thank you,” “I’m sorry, I fucked up,” and “I need help.”
And this:
I want my kids to be kind in their dealings with others, but also to be able to stand up for themselves.
Everything else is just details.

Damian Christie

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 15:04:48 +1300

I want to be able to say to her, “It’s never going to be that hard again. Adults don’t behave like that.”

Sure, they do, but you're generally not forced to share a small room with the ones who do, for hours at a time, day in, day out, without…

Emma Hart

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:58:13 +1300

when expectations are that parents are The Font Of All Knowledge

I reckon one of the few things I've got right as a parent is frequent use of the phrase, "I don't know. Let's find out!" So yeah, now my kids think google is the font of all knowledge.

Damian Christie

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:56:09 +1300

I see Damian has helpfully defined what a young person is in his blog post.

Well, yes. Sort of. Having just this week had the last birthday I'll have before I turn 40, I'm grappling with the same issues as everyone else – a refusal to admit I'm a grown…

Danielle

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:51:55 +1300

I guess it helps if one lives in a relatively dry climate like Canterbury …

I am less concerned about sweat and more concerned about the residue of... other things. Gah.

tussock

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:51:55 +1300

Thank you. I’m sorry, I chickened out. Also, I need help.

Awesome, now I'm an adult.

/blink.

Geoff Lealand

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:45:35 +1300

You realise we are officially in a situation of drought??

Carol Stewart

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:44:30 +1300

What is most challenging for parents (I reckon) is when your children know more than you do about certain things, w

I find that awesome rather than challenging. I have long ago ceded authority in new Zealand history, bird identification and knowledge of the subtleties of test cricket to my…

Geoff Lealand

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:41:22 +1300

What is most challenging for parents (I reckon) is when your children know more than you do about certain things, when expectations are that parents are The Font Of All Knowledge. My daughter (18) is fluent in Japanese and my son (26) knows more than I will ever know about…

Hebe

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:26:13 +1300

And the not bathing thing????? In summer two showers a day is required I guess it helps if one lives in a relatively dry climate like Canterbury ... one negotiated shower-less day out of seven days makes the other six days easier to manage — sometimes it becomes Stinky Saturday…

Lilith __

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:01:21 +1300

Oh Hebe, Filthy Friday, how hilarious!

I feel a lot more like a grownup now I realise everybody’s just doing the best they can, which is often not that great. And we’re all one mis-judgement away from epic fail.

As a teen I used to think adults must be all…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:58:52 +1300

the most neurotic person

nope, not at all.

And the not bathing thing????? In summer two showers a day is required ... if ladies glow and horses sweat, buggered if I know what my sweat glands think they're up to!

Bart Janssen

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:55:36 +1300

Shame about the body…

bloody knees

Gregor Ronald

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:50:20 +1300

Yep, Angus, you're right. I'm 65 next birthday, but my brain still thinks I'm 25-30. Shame about the body...

Jeremy Andrew

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:49:36 +1300

OMG, I'm not the only one! I'm having my second 21st birthday next year and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up... In five or ten years, the kids will be moving out, and then what? Time for an OE perhaps...

Hebe

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:33:37 +1300

I can't handle the intermittent bathing thing AT ALL. Skipping a day is the *worst*.

Fifty shades of grey has an entirely different meaning in this house.

Lucy Stewart

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:18:48 +1300

Adulthood, as far as I'm concerned, is realising that the buck for your life stops with you. All those skills like cooking and driving are just various reflections of the willingness to take responsibility for yourself, to whatever extent you're capable of it. I'm at an age where a lot…

Josh Addison

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:15:21 +1300

Because if *everyone* is faking it...

Everyone feels like they're faking it, but I think in reality, most of us are perfectly capable and competent at what we do. At 37, I've managed to train myself to ignore that sinking "oh shit, I'm out of my depth" feeling when I…

Angus Robertson

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:12:07 +1300

Inside every pensioner, there is a teenager asking what the fuck just happened?

Danielle

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 13:04:29 +1300

suddenly realised that I wasn’t the only person who felt like they were faking being a grown-up, and at some point I was going to get called out on it

That realisation took place around the time that my fear of flying became kinda crippling. Because if *everyone* is faking…

Hebe

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:37:46 +1300

Can you believe that these days I get the mortality thing and the "not really a grown-up" thing? Am I weird?Same. Pimples and wrinkles, without a gap between.

Hebe

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:29:11 +1300

".... a pit of their own filth when we leave them on their own for three weeks."

From where I'm sitting, with two 15-year-old males (Boys? Nah. Teens? Vaguely patronising and with bad connotations) at home, that goal seems very, very, very far off. They cook very well, play music,…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:28:50 +1300

There was a point where my son was about 3 when he suddenly realised that one day he would die – he suffered an obvious existential crisis and got really really worried, which was eventually solved a few days later by talking through "it's going to be a very long…

Raymond A Francis

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:28:47 +1300

Interesting and your last thought on "pit of filth" is a good start

One of the thing that I have noticed during my life (and I am not on the pension yet so I am not that old) is the rapid lengthening of childhood
When you had to wait till…

Brent Jackson

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:26:52 +1300

As a 16 year old, I wanted to be treated as an adult. We ran our own Venturer unit and were hard on the adult leader who was foisted on us (sorry Barry). So much so that he gave up – which suited us fine. At age 22 I bought…

Russell Brown

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:23:57 +1300

My definition of reaching adulthood was when I suddenly (and seriously) thought about my eventual demise.

Can you believe that these days I get the mortality thing and the "not really a grown-up" thing? Am I weird?

Ross Mason

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:18:35 +1300

My definition of reaching adulthood was when I suddenly (and seriously) thought about my eventual demise. Which was only a few years ago BTW :-). Suddenly, the second half seems to have an end.....which was something that "less than" adults (ie, when I was one) rarely thought about.

After spending…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:15:02 +1300

Well I have two kids, both are now off to Uni and have actually left home – that whole "empty nest" thing is quite real .... they both can drive, feed themselves, budget, get out of bed to go to classes by themselves so I think mostly we've done OK.…

Lilith __

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:08:57 +1300

I have a good friend on the spectrum and he's been long and happily married with kids. He says he's hopeless at relationships, but I don't believe it. He always responds immediately if a friend is sad or needs help. In fact he is MORE attentive than many of my…

Michael J. Parry

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 12:05:48 +1300

suddenly realised that I wasn’t the only person who felt like they were faking being a grown-up, and at some point I was going to get called out on it

Do we ever grow out of that?

Josh Addison

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:58:24 +1300

It does seem that "not feeling like an adult" is feeling like an adult.

David Cormack

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:54:26 +1300

I see Damian has helpfully defined what a young person is in his blog post.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:51:58 +1300

in a pit of their own filth

Damn I guess I really should clean the house this weekend.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:48:28 +1300

I think of all those things to learn saying "I'm sorry" is the hardest and most important of all.

I think I got the hang of it by about 30, not actually saying it, just knowing I should be saying it.

Saying "I Love you" ... out loud ... actually…

David Cormack

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:45:16 +1300

Maybe it's because adult carries with it a weight of responsibility that we don't want to absorb. If we want to be reckless we can. This must mean we're not adults right?

suddenly realised that I wasn’t the only person who felt like they were faking being a grown-up, and…

Emma Hart

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:44:15 +1300

We tend to forget the behaviour towards others that apparent grown-ups justify in themselves when they feel insecure or under pressure.

Yeah, there is careless behaviour that comes from a lack of empathy, and there is vicious behaviour that comes from knowing how someone will feel, and deliberately hurting them.…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:42:25 +1300

A lot of our friends are now starting to have kids

Some of our friends kids are about to have 21st birthday parties!

That means I must be an adult right? I've worn a tie I think twice in my life. I don't own a business suit, but my brother…

Emma Hart

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:41:30 +1300

Are we adults? We don’t feel like adults.

Dude. I'm 50. And I still get that all the time.

"Everybody" does. At some time in my mid-twenties (by which time I already had kids) I had a conversation with friends and suddenly realised that I wasn't the only person who…

David Cormack

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:39:36 +1300

edit at least another two decades…

Russell Brown

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:39:20 +1300

That’s interesting – do you think that some of this might come from having had to confront and analyse his own emotions from a relatively early age?

More likely from innate innocence of the kind of high-school bullshit noted by Emma. We tend to forget the behaviour towards others that…

David Cormack

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:39:12 +1300

Thank god I have another two decades of irresponsibility then.

Russell Brown

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:36:18 +1300

Are we adults? We don’t feel like adults.

Dude. I'm 50. And I still get that all the time.

Kumara Republic

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:36:17 +1300

I’m 34, and my marital status is best described as single but eligible. Yet somehow I’m still 27-30 at heart.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:33:51 +1300

sounds like you keep them locked in the basement…

You say that like it’s a bad thing.

David Cormack

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:32:33 +1300

My wife and I are running into this head-first (not for our children, but for ourselves). She's just turned 30 and I'm a spring chicken of 28. We've had plenty of discussions recently about what it means to be an "adult". We're married, we own a house and we have…

James Butler

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:29:14 +1300

I would say that our younger son, who still has issues with emotional control, in some ways has greater emotional maturity and self-knowledge than some of the “adults” I have had to work for as managers.

That's interesting – do you think that some of this might come from having…

Russell Brown

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:17:18 +1300

With two boys on the spectrum, we find this stuff particularly perplexing. We know they'll develop in different ways, and be "late bloomers", but we really have no idea of where they're supposed to be at. I would say that our younger son, who still has issues with emotional control,…

James Butler

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:12:03 +1300

My wife and I are 30, and we'll have a teenage son next year. Guess which path to adulthood we won't be encouraging?

Public Address

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 11:12:03 +1300

Discussion from blog post.