Nice rant. The conclusion does depend on what constitutes evidence, but I do love how the picture drawn by science of the universe actually IS mindboggling, compared to the oft given claim that God is mindboggling, without actually giving us anything specific to boggle about.…

Well, this is all fun and games till someone loses their faith.

We here at Agnostic HQ were absolutely primed for imminent certainty, jaws agape, eyes wide, breath held, but further analysis revealed the proselytiser…

The way to me, friend, is through prayer. Prayer or bribery.

Preferably bribery.

'Belief' is not next to 'evidence' in the thesaurus, unless you happen to be looking at the antonyms portion in certain editions.

Doesn’t it seem at odds with the gist of Emma’s original post to suggest that a particular belief should be made compulsory reading in schools only because you agree with it?

I guess I prefer to cast this discussion in terms of what we don't know. The fact…

Your soliloquy needs a book or movie written around it, if not a competition for best dramatic delivery, as well.
Brilliant summation.
or beginning…

[but gosh I feel tiny speck of a…

To continiue your Dojo analogy, I think it's more like practicing on a punchbag, or one of those wooden wing chun dummies. No matter how skilled and powerful your strikes, the dummy (being an inanimate object) is…

I was completely wrong.

Tussock your post was the perfect reason to continue arguing with a religious zealot.

Applause.

Oh and a nomination for post of the year!

We do have a post of the year don't we?

Everything. Every single thing in existence is proof that there's no gods. Photons, Neutrinos, Cell Phones, Dark Matter, Cosmological Expansion, Plate Tectonics, the Evolution of Species, Universal Gravitation, everything is chemicals…

I had a horrified fascination in how many loops could be involved, and under what conditions the loop could be broken out of. I'm still none the wiser. Reminds me of the time I spent 5 hours debugging…

As a major guilty party in carrying on with it, I have no objections.

It is considered an elusive and mysterious creature

We'll be good.

Closing it would not be a bad idea, I suspect the silliness will wear off fairly soon.

John Key: "I will return to lift you up"

Laila Harre: "blessed are the little children"

I can't help thinking that The Greens would come out as some kind of Rangi and Papa type spiritualists. But I can't think…

However. I have a column on a much more delicate and…

We've done what beer is each political party like, perhaps we could do what god/denomination.

Yet again, I regret that PAS does not have "favourite" buttons.

We'll be releasing a statement shortly.

I dunno, I pop in and out as the fancy takes me. It's amusing thinking up smart remarks that won't upset Russell too much.

The idea of a democratic collection of…

I find it amazing that such a boring tedious and recycled discussion can go on so long. there is simply nothing more pointless than arguing with a religious zealot, it makes nobody happy and resolves nothing.

Sounds like one that Gareth Morgan would support :)

except here, where you said:

which is a more irrational position given the number of witnesses who support...

Can you explain how your statement is not equivalent to "this factual question can be answered by counting the number of supporters…

Argument from evil. If a deity that is powerful, knowledgeable and good exists, you'd expect there not to be pointless suffering in the world they've created. It's easy to prove there's pointless suffering, therefore if there's a deity, they…

Oh dear. Agnostics everywhere will be shamed by this.

I'm sure you meant "for or against the existance...", because that is after all the more accurate statement.

There's a name for the "no evidence therefore..." fallacy, but most of us know…

FFS, that’s because you just cherry picked the argument off it.
No, I didn’t cherry pick anything, there wasn’t any alternative line of reasoning. A wall of words based on fictions, assumptions, and irrelevances is not an actual argument.

" it is more rational to believe that deity exists than not because evidence exists that supports such existence, but no evidence to the contrary has been shown."

One question- if this ludicrous proposition were true...
Logical…

FFS, that's because you just cherry picked the argument off it. Following the snippet you just quoted are hundreds of words of argument, referring back to the thousands of words of argument that you still haven't done a damned thing to…

You used to be JTB on Realms of Insanity, didn't you?

To which you replied:

"Yes, that is what I think. Since Steve Park’s post covers your entire comeback…

Haven't you run out of feed yet?

Me, also. Regrets.

Because it directly answers your question. That's virtually the definition of relevant.

In which post?

Eh??? Seriously???? It fucking happened an hour ago, how can you have already forgotten? this post. This kind of obtuseness is exactly what I mean by you not engaging. It's right…

"So what do you think that the salient point is that refutes my argument?"

I explained that.
In which post?

Which I then gave a long post on.

So what do you think that the salient point is that refutes my argument?

I explained that.

Generally I go for the crux of the argument and don’t bother with…

Since Steve Park’s post covers your entire comeback before it even happened. 10 hours before it happened.
So what do you think that the salient point is that refutes my argument?

You…

Yes, that is what I think. Since Steve Park's post covers your entire comeback before it even happened. 10 hours before it happened. You cherry picked a piece of…

IOW, how have I (allegedly) avoided enagaging in meaningful debate in that case?

LOL

I think his/her whole line of reasoning is a more general kind of fallacy, the non sequitur. There’s no need to put a deeper or more specific name on…

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I've already said more than I originally intended, and I'm…

ask and you shall receive:
EARTH-DIRECTED X-FLARE AND CME: Sunspot AR2158 erupted on Sept. 10th at 17:46 UT, producing an X1.6-class solar flare. A flash of ultraviolet radiation from the explosion ionized the upper layers…

It's not just about origins. Blackstone describes how the common law survived the Norman conquest, and the religious role of the head of state of…

Swine are much maligned and mistreated,
And that verse can be used by so many it renders it meaningless.

I guess.

Being free to express an opinion doesn't necessarily mean I have to listen to it, respectfully or otherwise. Or respond/not respond, respectfully or otherwise.

True.

Although no-one is actually stopping UT from freely expressing themselves. Even if they're copping some flak here, they have their own blog, which has been linked to at least once. If anyone suggested forming a mob armed with torches and pitchforks to cleanse…

I think that your emphasis on the link between religious belief and the legal system is a kind of genetic fallacy, to put it mildly. Having gone all Voltaire on…

That's your "evidence"?
Try a little harder would you.

That argument can be reversed to demonstrate the opposite, leaving you with two positions that are “more…

Understanding the connection between theism and English democracy involves going back the the advent of kings in the Judaic tradition. If it hadn't been a popular idea at the time then kingship would…

"I’m only interested in English common law, as it applies to NZ"

Right, but not it’s sources

Common law without its sources is hollow.

The connection to Christianity is unavoidable because of the…

mantellum/petasus

I'm sure I once read somewhere that down in Texas, kicking arses is known as "doing the Lord's work".

Perhaps attributable to the size of your sample, you’re trying to pin people down(?). I’m as skeptical about the deeply held…

I'm only interested in English common law, as it applies to NZ
Right, but not it's sources, which you of course immediately disown because they prove your own ranting here to be bound…

You can't prove a negative! So if your only support is numbers of people believe such and such, while a smaller number take…

That makes no sense, most theists are even more emphatic that other theists are wrong than atheists are. There's a famous quote to the effect that if you summarise the opinion of…

That argument can be reversed to demonstrate the opposite, leaving you with two positions that…

Interesting that your god is so democratic. Most of them are more "my way or the highway".

Doesn't that cause problems since numerically more people disbelive in your god than believe in…

Oh I see, it's the law of nature that says kids must attend Bible class at school.

This is the foundation of what we call ethics, or natural law.

You also mentioned natural rights here, saying

The natural rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness can be restated as life, liberty, and the pursuit…

And English common law dictates that kids must attend Bible class? Sounds like rubbish to me.

http://wiki.actsinjunction.info/CommonLaw

If I…

I agree that consciousness creates subjective value and suppose…

If I understand the Christian doctrine even remotely, and you are a Christian, then you can probably feel quite safe about that. It…

But you can't avoid that argument. Language is objective when uttered, in the sense that multiple people can hear the sounds (although it's really very disputable whether everyone, even people with perfectly…

Don’t worry, no-one’s accusing the magic poo monster space aliens of that.

Nice one. I put my hand up for sure as not being the nicest of commentators. I'm more of a fan of robust debate, in which the opponents actually…

Expelliarmus.

IMO the reason that there is no case law is that the defendants appear as persons within the usual jurisdiction (i.e personal jurisdiction aka jurisdiction in personam).

In order to clarify, “person” and “man” are not equivalent terms, even ignoring the issue of gender. The word person originates…

It’s a rather weird argument, because common law isn’t exactly a static beast, which is kinda sorta the entire point. You may beg…

Surely, it's a "lifestyle choice"?

Don't worry, no-one's accusing the magic poo monster space aliens of that.

To be fair, I always enjoying reading your posts Rich.

I think there are two slightly different issues.

The first is the 'objective source of meaning' problem. As I tried to show with references, this is something that many important atheistic thinkers have actively…

We prefer to be called 'people of compulsory masturbatory habits' these days, thanks.

But that aside, I'm not exactly sure what you're suggesting, in terms of how 'us people' should be modifying our behaviour. UT raised a line of argument and a conclusion…

It's okay, I don't have any of that.

Do you know what I have been having trouble with lately? Spooky co-incidences. I was at the lights last week when that old Bob Muldoon quip about emigres to Australia raising the IQ of both countries popped into…

Mmm. Maybe.

For conversational purposes I'm an agnostic, so it seems to me that atheism and theism are just different kinds of unsupportable assumption.

verily

You mean Ugly Truth? A nick that says 'I know more than you ignorant dupes, enough to burst your complacent bubbles. You may queue to kiss my enlightened arse".

Faced with this kind of pest, PAS's shortcoming isn't the debatable wankishness of its habitues. It's the lack…

if you cross their palm with silver

You're not fully getting it, IMO.

But whatever. Feel free to disprove it, rather than ridicule other users or suggest that they be banned.

#teeworthy

I thought the argument that morality needs a universal reference point to have absolute meaning (ie, meaning that is not reducible to physical, psychological or social factors) was well understood. This has been discussed throughout the history…

Although I suspect the knife in this case is more of a spork.

Pig wrestling ,you get dirty and the pig gets annoyed.

I think that you must be able to recognise a…

Not that crap again. Didn't Russell have to ban someone a while back who was dead keen on that angle?

You and me both. I thought he started out arguing with Ben that ethics and morality are only possible if your laws are based on religious admonition (which he calls "natural law"), but every time you try to pin him down on something, he…

The majority isn’t always right – binding referenda are a real danger to minority rights, but that’s usually dealt with by representative democracy and…

Yes, but that's a little different to whether one parliament can overrule a past one. The majority isn't always right – binding referenda are a real danger to minority rights, but that's usually dealt with by representative…

Are you still unable to reconcile Blackstone with your assertion that common law and case law are equivalent, nzlemming?

You are refusing to accept that.

The broken links were not from the wiki. Do you have any answer to Blackstone's account of the history of the common law, given that we now have the "dome-book" of King Alfred the Great?

"And indeed our antiquaries and early historians do all positively assure us, that our…

Using RationalWiki's precis:

"1. If you believe in God and God does exist, you will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven: thus an infinite gain."

Non sequitur. Just rewards are…

I think we've established that that is Ugly Truth's own site, as he was planning to fix the broken links, though that may have been on the other thread.

Without enforcement, there is no law, only pious warblings from the sidelines.

What you're missing is that your definition is incorrect, in that common law is the decisions of judges in courts interpreting appropriate statutes. These may trace back, in some cases, to Alfred's liber judicialis but, as…

You need some more relevant base material.

No, Bouvier's is relevant.

What you don’t seem to understand is how common law came to be

So why don't…

Ah, now there we're talking about natural justice, rather than natural law. Any lawyer will tell you there is a world of difference between justice and law.

Which is:
A LAW DICTIONARY
ADAPTED TO THE CONSTITUTION AND LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND OF THE SEVERAL STATES OF THE AMERICAN UNION
by John Bouvier
Revised Sixth Edition, 1856

150 years old and confined to America, specifically to prove how American…

I never said that common law was the entire body of English law.

LAW, COMMON. The common law is that which derives its force and authority from the universal consent and immemorial practice of the…

Real world kept me busy.

you really need to study how Parliament works rather than cherry pick quotes.
No, I really don't.

http://www.bennion.co.nz/mlr/2003/mlr0803.pdf
Link broken but available via the Wayback Machine. Tom’s a good lawyer and a friend, and I’ve argued alongside him, so I may be a little more familiar with his thought than…

The Tom Bennion and NZ Parliament links don't work.

Thanks for that, I'll fix it later.

The NZ Parliament quote can be found at this page.

External references for http://wiki.actsinjunction.info/Sovereignty/References

http://www.etymonline.com/
Bouvier's 1856 dictionary of law
Blacks dictionary of law, 2nd, 5th, and 8th editions.

External references for http://www.actsinjunction.info/nzsov.html

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/AboutParl/HowPWorks/FactSheets/0/e/7.htm
http://www.bennion.co.nz/mlr/2003/mlr0803.pdf…

The subsequent bunch of stuff you dump to justify the claim that I'm mistaken makes no reference to what you claim I'm mistaken about, which is that the entirety of the legal and enforcement apparatus in this nation will back up the sovereignty of our parliament. A…

You keep quoting this site as if it has some value or authority. I've looked at it. It is not compelling, consisting of self-referential one-liners with no reference to external supporting evidence. I suspect it is your own site.

Lex terræ: /léks téhriy/. The law of the land. The common law,…

Is this a Maori sovereignty argument? Because it looks like that's the logical conclusion, but people arguing that usually use a lot less carthago delenda est and a…

Darn tootin'.
Thanks to the interhosen, we got more popes than catholics.

Do doo be-do-do.

No, I mean aliens. If you want more detail, fine. Thousands of them can fit on the head of a pin. They are immortal and come from a galaxy far, far away.…

You've…

Yup, it's my story. I get to define these aliens how I like. It's on you to show why they don't exist, in a way that doesn't also refute your own imaginary friend.…

http://wiki.actsinjunction.info/Sovereignty
http://www.actsinjunction.info/nzsov.html

No, I told you the purpose. The aliens are making fun of you.

The thing about aliens is…

The state has the right in this country to entirely redefine the law. If it doesn't want to make the source of promises something that…

or variously W C Fields/Fred Allen/Dorothy Parker before him