Not to stretch a point, but I do believe you are right Ben, it’s comical that the thrust of the law prohibits those most predisposed i.e. those with the unbounded energy and flexibility, while pharmaceutical companies profit enormously from our need to perform…

So long as the parents don't push for prosecution. Which isn't everyone being treated equally under the law, not everyone has the same parents. But it's good to hear that good sense surrounds these laws in human…

Emma linked to on the first page

Police national youth aid co-ordinator…

I'm not making that argument. I'm saying there's a balance of goods and harms in it, and trying to put in perspective the harms compared any number of things we do…

Even if no one dies in a year (and we're unusual with HIV, lots of other countries are losing people hand over foot),…

This is all true, but what I find scary is just that the suicide really is that high.

In this country, some stats on that would be awesome. The main killer STD, HIV turning into full blown AIDS, killed no one at all in 2011. I don't know how to find out, really. [[http://www.health.govt.nz/publication/mortality-and-demographic-data-2009|mortality data…

You hear of plenty of people dying from diseases from sexual contact though.

Agreed. Sorry, wasn't trying to make a point there, just wanted to not minimise the struggle for people with sexually-transmitted HIV, or those with serious complications from other STDs.

Yes, it would be a terrible thing to happen. Also very unlikely. Your chances of dying in a car crash are far higher, and we put children in those from before they are even born.

Many things that aren't STDs are serious. Many things that are STDs aren't particularly serious. They don't really hold any special place in the medical seriousness stakes..... To this end the endless…

The consequences of untreated meningitis can be death within 48 hours. Many things that aren't STDs are serious. Many things that are STDs aren't particularly serious. They don't really hold any special place in the…

Christchurch had this when I was a teenager. Was of huge importance to a lot of teens then. It's my understanding now…

It was because their partner, or ex-partners of partners had revealed that they had an STD. Some of it was caution. A lot of it was at the insistence of the partners.…

No, you're quite right Ben you certainly can't, though I would contend that in some cases the recklessness of youth does seem to dull with age to some extent. it's unwise of me to assume, but based on your school's denomination, I…

No you're quite right Ben you certainly can't, though I would contend that in some cases the recklessness of youth does seem to dull with age to some extent. Were your friends being cautious for cautious sake or because they'd failed to…

Can you ever be ready for an STD? It's just one of the risks of sex, highly mitigable by taking precautions, and mostly treatable even if you don't. Nothing about that changes just…

To be honest Ben, I find that a little sensationalised. There are complications which as a 17…

Thanks for reminding me Emma, living here, I had completely forgotten about that anachronism. And thank goodness Judith Collins’ Care of Children Act 2004 was…

... something something feminism.

It's a good book. A good think about what the psychology of a well-ordered scientific society could look like. I'm more of a fan of The Dispossessed though, and other works of LeGuin.

I have heard those swabs…

Duly noted, I appreciate your candor, and I agree that the notion that people are better off being completely protected from dangerous things needs to be challenged, within reason, as for…

I'm certainly not suggesting that 7 year olds should be having sex. Just that the beginnings of their training in something very dangerous can begin very young. I'm challenging the notion that people are better off being…

No, I understand that, that’s why I asked for clarification on your earlier comment. I’d assumed you were talking about teenagers. You appear to be talking about children.

Actually what set me off was Ben’s 7 year old learning to swim, it could have just…

No, I understand that, that's why I asked for clarification on your earlier comment. I'd assumed you were talking about teenagers. You appear to be talking about children.

if we have a nine year old legally…

On this issue I don't have views set in stone, so I like your contribution, it furthers the debate. Yes, flirting with the…

Its parents, and if its parents cannot, the state. Because a child is not a punishment, it’s a human being.

With that sentiment I can’t agree more, so I feel the child whose parents are unable to legally…

No. No, they're really not.

pregnancy is reversible, but who’s to make that decision

Are you seriously asking this question? Because there is only one morally-defensible answer, and I'd hate for you to accidentally get this particular can of whoop-arse opened on…

I think death is a far more serious…

You also don't really hear of many people dying from sex. I think death is a far more serious consequence than impregnation (which is preventable…

Not to overcomplicate, but the thing about swimming is you don’t see too many women emerging from the waves having been impregnated by the ocean. With sex,…

This is true. However, almost nobody knew this, so it wouldn’t have affected many people’s decision-making.

Really? When I was at high school (mid 80’s) it…

Did I do the right thing? Really? I’m asking this in a moral sense, rather than a legal sense. In hindsight, I am not sure at all. In avoiding a harm, I…

Absent the law, I don't know why I'd particularly care what her feelings were about it, unless she brought it up specifically. I may have deeply held feelings about Croatians,…

This is true. However, almost nobody knew this, so it wouldn't have affected many people's decision-making.

People should always try to make sure their partners are…

No one will ever know if that is true. The trauma you are referring to…

You could play that creepy Dragon song and look meaningfully at them, I suppose.

Sorry I haven't read the article in full. This from Emma I read. This Emma I agree with and find problematic. Gender-stereotyped…

There seems to me to be important distinctions here between the various possible…

Has a nice ring to it. Most nicknames for Herpes sound downright depressing.

That's about all there is, really. If they look mature, then I think most "reasonable" people would consider how it might have fared for them, in the same situation. They put it to the thought experiment of meeting an attractive person that…

And we're pretty much all in agreement at least about this? That the best thing about our law in this area is that it's not often enforced?

it is not invariably necessary to…

[Bingo: in Grace v R [2011] NZCA 950, the Crown admitted: "it is not invariably necessary to make a direct inquiry of the young person or to seek independent verification" (at 17). Admittedly…

Surely "asking" is a bare minimum.

You have a defense, but he doesn't, as I read it.

Even weirder, the idea that at the age of 15, if I had flirted with a…

Yeah, I agree. That’s why I think “age of consent” is misleading, because the “age of consent” is generally meant as the age below which you can’t consent. But you clearly can consent if you’re under 16. Your consent just isn’t enough to beat s134, although it…

If you look at s134A, you see that the law has a concept of “consent” for those under 16. It just doesn’t think that’s hugely important.

"Age of consent" doesn't come into it, anyway. Consent itself does, and is clearly important as one of the three…

If you look at s134A, you see that the law has a concept of “consent” for those under 16. It just doesn’t think that’s hugely important.…

To be quite rough, there’s a group of crimes here. One, sexual violation, is what we’d commonly call rape. It’s defined, basically, as having sex with someone who doesn’t freely, actively and informedly consent, and it carries a 20 year maximum,…

What's a better term? Presumably you're not saying adults can have…

I think that's actually one of the stronger arguments against a single line. A lot of physically adult people with intellectual disabilities like sex and consent to it. Ditto people institutionalised with mental illnesses.…

I'm not sure, I don't…

Yes. Also, conversely, one's right to have sex might have little to do with maturity. The idea that an socially immature but physically mature 20 year…

How about a shiny badge instead with LEDs, that could be used as a ninja throwing star, with a secret tracking device ... oh

But we do that with all sorts of things – contracts, operating dangerous machinery, medical attention, (recreational) drug use, military service, you name it. Pragmatism requires a sharp line that's easily…

Some of the arguments treat sex as…

The media hype has largely been generated and actively courted by Kaitlyn's parents, which is another thing that makes me make my 'conflicted' face about this case. But before the circus hit the road a…

Why?

I know. I just thought someone should mention that "pressuring someone into sex" is actually rape.

One of the other oddities is that in NZ it's quite legal to have sex at 16, but not legal to produce "sexually…

Which brings up another complication: "statutory rape" (and I agree with Graham, that's a terrible descriptor) seems to be quite often…

See, I think that is a perfectly valid argument (especially considering attitudes about men always being “up for it”, etc.) But that was diametrically opposite to the argument they were making, and IIRC…

Absolutely. And in some cases, over-age sex is exploitative. Likewise, as Islander points out, non-sexual relationships can be just as strong as sexual ones – including as strong a bad influence. But in neither…

While I agree that underage sex is not necessarily exploitative, in some cases it sure is.

And, frankly, as far as Glee is concerned I'd put…

When you're 35, "she's legal" isn't good enough.

Classic. I wonder how that would go down as a rule in a brothel. Sorry, mate, you're just too old for our girls.

No, I'm not either. If there weren't predatory pedophiles, there wouldn't need to be an age of consent? But there are such people. Perhaps that may change/lessen. Or it could go the other way. To me that seems…

Yep – arguably the most robust defence of ages of consent is similar to that of anti-polymarriage laws, that the intention (never…

Precisely. It's analogous to over protecting children from physical play. It doesn't really make them safer, because they don't learn what is actually dangerous, they don't develop…

I found this column interesting, about re-examining the whole idea of 'age of consent' and its underlying concepts. But one of the…

I think it's more about consent than maturity – that's an incredibly subjective idea. Furthermore, having sex is in itself a driver of maturity, a rite of passage.

I have a strong dislike of the phrase "statutory rape".

Rape is about lack of consent. Underage sex is underage sex.…

I always thought it should be exponential rather than linear, but yeah.

I have had exactly this argument, in a different context. I had sex at fifteen. Nobody should get to tell me that whether…

Nope. The end result of that clause being removed from the legislation was that we ended up with a law that…

The surprising thing about that piece of received wisdom for me is how accurate it actually is to what are generally considered acceptable age differences in Western society (quirks of gender…

Fair enough.

That's just asking for theme cakes.

I ended up in a very bizarre argument a while ago on a feminist website about an episode of Glee, where, as it…

This may not be true. The source for this is Kaitlyn's father. An early quote from Kaitlyn's mother said that while the girls had been friends for years, they…