I appreciate your thoughts and writing about this Steven. Thank you.

Fatbergs.

I didn’t just let it go, because some things are to important.

Respect, Steven.

PS. Thanks from those who failed to live down to their expectations...

Thank you so much for opening yourself up to the introspection…

Thank you for coming here and sharing this with us. I know it can't be easy.

I think it is far more complex and nuanced than that.…

It’s problematic in that if we were able to successfully indoctrinate the masses in ways to avoid indoctrination a whole lot of the world’s problems might be…

"Carl Jung ascribed the root of human evil to "the refusal…

+1. Thank you.

And, the organisations who employ them and give them a legitimised platform deserve an equal measure of scorn.

Enablers.

How very true. I don't see how any of these adults could see themselves as "good and loving" – if they do they are worthless – still thinking only of themselves; their own selfish vanity. They deserve only scorn.

Thank you for this, and for braving this space.

I have yet to see what I consider to be a genuine heart-felt restorative process occur in regards to Centrepoint's history. One which honours and respects the stories of those who suffered.…

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/28397/temple-of-truth-christchurch

It's a tough question, but the basic answer is: power and responsibility. The power imbalance between a child and an adult is much greater than between a child and an older child. Abuse is abuse, no argument, but a supposedly mature adult is…

I did some searches last night, there wasn’t much available, the child-on-child sexual abuse entry at Wikipedia linked to a few study abstracts;

A substantial proportion of child sexual abuse is perpetrated by adolescents and even younger children. Few states and child protective agencies, however,…

Likewise my knowledge is similarly limited to those I've spoken to, which I guess renders my use of the quantifier 'majority' redundant in the larger scheme. For the most these were isolated incidents not experienced serially by the…

is very confronting.

Raises memories and issues and is forcing some of us to travel back in time to when we were vulnerable and at risk and no-one was there to care for us the way we had the right to be cared for.

I'm choosing not to…

Having taken some time to reflect, the issue I have with what you wrote is that a majority of people I have spoken to who were abused as children were abused by slightly older children. The victims were ambushed, there is extremely…

When you put it like that I can’t say I’m completely surprised that you haven’t come across any individual who felt confident in negotiating the indignity of admitting that these features might turn them on. Hairy and smelly, like apes. like hirsute humans, a marked departure from…

Also, I don't think I've ever yet come across a 13-year old who wanted to experiment with someone a whole lot older than themselves – let alone some hairy smelly "old" (by 13-year old…

Which is huge, because many justice systems might not agree with you there. In terms of sexual rights, children are basically at slave equivalency, they are dehumanised, wIth no legally meaningful right of consent and in all that gray it’s hardly surprising that adults can…

I remember someone commenting at the time that Kirk's use of the word "kibbutz" when explaining the ohu concept probably helped sell it to the wider electorate. There seemed to be an awful lot of advertising copywriters around in the 80s who claimed to have been speechwriters for Norman…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohu

To assist people in becoming self-sufficient from the land.
To enhance people's spiritual and social wellbeing.
To reconnect people to the land.
To give…

Indeed. My own commune had (has?) a long-term feud between different groups. Now being a shareholder, trying to maintain good relationships with all parties can be exhausting. But the land remains.

But that's a digression.

Having…

I'd be very interested. Grew up in the States during the 60's and so it would be really interesting to get an outside US take on it. I was less interested/exposed to the hippy movement and more a part of the…

Interestingly, that TVNZ doco gives some insight into this hippy or not question. I only watched it once (warning there for others as it is quite disturbing) but my overall impression was that, aside from what are likely the older/original members…

No so with CP.…

Well, you would know better than I, but I wonder if your idea of what a hippy is is the same as mine? The people on my…

I was extremely discomforted by the jump to blaming the mothers, it felt a…

Comparing the TVNZ doco on Centrepoint – and the more recent doco on Gloriavale (although both lead by convicted paedophiles) there seem to be significant differences. In particular Gloriavale seems to provide separate accommodation for individual family units,…

And then, how many cults and communes are there of this nature?

But parents can leave just as they came.Children don't have that luxury. If the answer they seek wasn't there, why stay? And if the answer was there . Kick them to the curb now.! Why subject children to something that has never…

I think the answer to that might only be found in academic-style research. I doubt many of the parents who might have been…

Yes. Watching the TVNZ documentary done in the early days gives some real…

So, rather me dive blindly into the myriad of hits the google offers on the subject....could recommendations be made…

But I havn’t been able…

Thanks Chris. I've been reluctant to read the thread and was not going to engage, but I feel it's useful to say: thank you for reminding people of this.

ETA, I'm just flabbergasted at the sheer size of Potter's influence on other commune adults. To convince…

Sorry, too late now for me to delete/edit but very happy for Russell/site admin to delete it as I trust your judgement – you are really well read on the topic. BTW. Meant to say, I found that very first link…

http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.aspx?ID=1844

The first wife divorced him because of his initial (i.e. before Centrepoint)…

With you Lilith.

A party vote was called for on the question, That the Crimes Amendment Bill (No 2) be now read a third time.

**Ayes 89 New Zealand Labour 51; New Zealand First 13; ACT…

I'm no good at interpreting innuendo, so really wasn't sure what you were hanging back from saying. But I think I might get it now. I had no idea until steven's above post that the crime of adult woman sexually assaulting a male…

As I said, I understand steven, and not wishing to derail the thread further, perhaps when we’ve moved on sufficiently from 2005 we’ll be able to…

I'm with you on that one – I imagine it is only a small minority who do. And anyway, I imagine paedophilia is a mental illness – one that can do extreme harm to others, but an illness no more or less an illness than haemophlia.…

PS to all my economist friends – I did say most -…

If you don't count this bunch of immaculately academically credentialed social scientists toiling for the Crown.

Well yes, I would. But for a very simple and unscientific reason – there is an easy solution to the problem we…

Good. We need a local context however, given we seem to be leading the international stats in this – and many related – problems. It irks me to think we lead the world in research associated with making cow farts less environmentally…

PS It is a big deal – and it should be remedied/addressed. Which is what my above post was meaning to address.

Bad academia employs Dr Goodyear-smith.

Yes,…

She gets it.

The main work of stage two involves:

Reviewing and/or discussing memories to lessen their emotional intensity, to revise their meanings for one’s life and identity, etc.

Working through grief about unwanted or abusive experiences and their negative effects on…

If it were simply a matter of "sending the police around" that shouldn't be a major problem. After all, they have their methods once they're motivated. As it seems plain that they're not for whatever reasons, I don't believe that it was in Anke…

The last few paragraphs of Anke Richter's article make it plain why, according to her own judgement and the expertise of those she credits, she took the course she did. As it's now in the public…

I singled it out because he still walks and stalks among us;

__On the night before I’m to meet my next Centrepoint informant, I mention this man’s name without further context to a couple who live in his Titirangi…

Of for goodness sake.

No. Please restrain yourself from putting words in my mouth. I am not going to engage with you any further.

It is, I agree. Which is why I suggested wider collaboration, with experts in the field.

This is what Anke and Emma have been doing. In the face of a mass of difficulties, including people bizarrely…

What makes you think I have no professional or personal experience?

For avoidance of doubt, I do, and its personal, not professional experience. Look back to the book I linked…

But no, I'm not talking about your mother – and that's part of my point – an overview, a book about Centrepoint for wider media consumption has the potential (in my opinion) to perhaps do more harm than good…

This is what someone above (I think Emma) might have thought of John Potter. He quite likely was exposed to illegal sexual contact (that is sexual contact as a minor with adults) that…

I'm sorry, but what the fuck? You think people get good sex techniques from being sexually abused? What?…

Katharine, I've listened to first-hand accounts by the victims. I'm tired of people insinuating that I'm siding with their abusers. If you want to accuse me of something, please come right out and do so.

I grew…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/73314271/Teacher-accused-of-sex-with-schoolboy-found-guilty

I appreciate that you and others have the best intentions Katharine, but incessant genderising leaves me feeling unwell. I understand that not everyone has yet adopted a world…

Well herein lie a problem. "Interesting" – think what you mean by that.

I don’t disagree that those wanting to be heard should give voice their sorrows, hurts, anguish, anger, trauma etc.if they feel that might assist their own healing. I think there are…

And tbh, some of the interviews Bert barely comes up, and when he does, he's tangential. I guess, I just don't find him very interesting. But all the people around him, the bystanders,…

I'm a bit uneasy with this notion of "utterly in thrall"? I interpret that as you…

Perhaps there are fewer female perpetrators of child sexual abuse, but CP demonstrates there still are some, and…

The police interviews, while failing to secure any arrests or close the commune, drove the abuse underground.

A genuine fan!

Membership of the club based on what?

You've omitted a fairly important comment from FSG's description of her time at Centrepoint.

"Subsequent trials for sexual abuse leading to convictions of Bert, my husband John and five other members of the community related to events in the late 1970s and early 1980s. John left the community in…

The Fringe is being fanned....

Not STIs in general but gonorrhoea specifically. And it seems she is correct.

"It is important that all cases of N gonorrhoeae in children be fully investigated for sexual abuse,…

http://goodyearsmith.com/

She and others have made the point that there can be a reluctance by some to appear as expert witnesses in cases of alleged child sexual abuse. That is unfortunate.

FGS says:

"I have acted for both the Crown and the defence as an expert…

New Zealand is a very tiny country.

How many degrees of separation?

How many stories get into the media because the protagonist 'knows' someone in the industry?

I've…

And I found this quote from the SST article interesting:

(Goodyear-Smith was charged with perjury in 1992; she writes that she was acquitted.)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/features/4069062/Conflicting-interests

Use of parentheses theirs.

Regarding FGS....

Who appointed this woman to this post?

Why?

Kinda brings the entire faculty into disrepute.

PS...I am an inveterate googler...I did NOT for…

Colour me surprised, her husband is active in ‘MRA’ circles,…

Do you think she's been able to maintain credibility through…

At my intermediate school in the late 80's, the Centrepoint bus lined up along with the bus to Dairy Flat and Paremoremo. Our school swimming sports were hosted at Centrepoint. It was part of…

I’d only had a vague recollection of the name Centrepoint or Bert Potter when I read this thread – so googled for a better background and one of the…

I say it's all part of the same story because it's related to the broader question of who gets to tell their stories, when, and what it means for victims and perpetrators when the case is put in the media again decades later. These…

http://notmyshame.squarespace.com/

Strong women.

This is not justice....this is enabling.

I wasn't referring to what might be more valid (from an investigative journalistic perspective for the…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

Powerful stuff, oxytocin.

Sexual predation/abuse and non-sexual physical violence have different pathologies. It is important to make the distinction. I was referring to the former in my earlier point about women…

I did have a…

I will say one more thing. I don’t know that this type of story is a path toward healing for those that need and deserve healing. I’d rather see a book on…

You're welcome – and you too, steven.

I would like to say alot more about the Metro article but it would likely be offensive to the author and others here, so I’ll leave it at that.

Evil is never evil, when it looks in the mirror. You have been looking into these people's mirrors.

I certainly second that!

I’d rather you spelled every single word wrong than you not be here Steven :-)

I was waiting for someone to spell it out. Thank you.

All and every hallmark of a sexual predator...with the added…

Interesting point. But I’d add that Bert wasn’t of the hippie generation – born in 1925, he was a 52 year old sexual predator by the time he formed Centrepoint. I have no doubts he had offended well before that. The hippie generation…

You say “There will often be a tension…

She's one of the ones. So is Louise, on whom the article focuses. Louise, while she struggled, wanted her story told. Anke's interviews led to her receiving an apology from the woman I talk about in this…

It would also come up in any clippings search on the subject of the Centrepoint crimes, which is precisely what anyone doing any…

I read and re read that article Anke, then did the google search thing on some of the names.

High price indeed for victims and whisleblowers when some of the perpetrators and enablers, instead of fading into total obscurity as would be appropriate, maintain…

Anke, Emma –

Perhaps I should emphasise the flipside a little. Quite…

I don't think it read that way. I've covered the work of the…

My query was kind of rhetorical. Some years ago I was offered…

Yes. I knew lovely people who were peripherally involved with Centrepoint. What we might now call alternative lifestylers.

Forming an embrochure with the lips and blowing a raspberry on the clitoris. It seemed funny and enjoyable then, creeps me out a bit now, for obvious reasons.

This came up in the interviews, and I have to say, I am curious.

It’s hard to credit now how accepted and acceptable Centrepoint was within a wider hippyish community. It had a proximity in perhaps the way the Mr Asia scene…

We use that expression...but what does it really mean?

FWIW...media reports at the time of the shitstorm constantly referred to the "charismatic" leader. This word always has negative connotations for me now.

Some of my best friends, etc...

Ahem... I prefer the term "fading into the background" rather than "slinking off" (sounds slightly more dignified somehow).

For the record, it…

I hope their stories will be told, and thank you to you and Anke, for trying to make them heard.

I hope you, and Anke, are doing ok, and that…

Rare quality writing in the Herald...http://www.nzherald.co.nz/canvas-magazine/news/article.cfm?c_id=532&objectid=11529162

It is impossible to encounter evil unscathed.

More impossible to encounter this manifestation of evil where the perpetrators and enablers still exist in our world....unscathed.

Brave Emma. Brave Anke.

Strength and healing to…