Steven Judd:
"For boys who had been through the juvenile justice system, compared to boys with similar histories without judicial involvement, the odds of adult judicial interventions increased almost seven-fold," says study co-author Richard E. Tremblay...

Thats a good study thanks. There is also a similar idea of "deviance amplified"…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2607013/School-for-scandal

There's been a myth abroad for some time that free-market policies somehow raise the general IQ, and the needs of the vulnerable can be wished away. Much of the present bloated jail population is due to this cynical nonsense.

Kerry:

You're quite right, it is due to that cynical nonsense. We…

"For boys who had been through the juvenile justice system, compared to boys with similar histories without judicial involvement, the odds of adult judicial interventions increased almost seven-fold," says study co-author Richard E. Tremblay, a professor of psychology, pediatrics and psychiatry…

. . . possibly up to 70% of male prisoners have an anti-social personality disorder and 50% of prisoners with major mental health issues don't get any sort of treatment. Clayton Weatherston anyone? He's mad as a snake – what will prison do to him?

People with intellectual disabilities are…

Happens anywhere when constitutional conventions are blatantly challenged.

It was a speech to the Women In Law Society, in honour of Shirley Smith, first woman law lecturer in NZ, not a press release. The most pertinent parts of her speech, to me, were about mental illness – possibly up to…

Craig Ranapia: Someone might also like to ask when the Government abolished a basic principle of British justice: That people properly charged with crimes are entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law?

Could've beendrugs... the passage of the Misuse of…

I would have been amazed if Power had not reacted that way, regardless of what sense Elias made. Happens anywhere when constitutional conventions are blatantly challenged. I doubt she is surprised.

Recommended reading for the week: Otago Law lecturer Andrew Geddis on pundit.co.nz.

3410, are you saying things would have gone better with the censors if Mr Milk had sharper teeth?

Please bear in mind that I'm a fairly dull-witted sort of fellow. With your help, the penny has now dropped.

Well, unlike, say, Milk , in Lesbian Vampire Killers , the nasty lesbians get their comeuppance. With stakes.

Dude! They're vampires!

I found it interesting that Simon Power got curmudgeonly over Dame Sian Elias' comments about early release of prisoners etc. Amazing how the Chief Justice isn't worthy of respectful attention,…

In lo-tech news, "Samoan film censor opens door for lesbian vampires" says the Harold. And then chooses a screengrab of a male-female couple to illustrate the story.

Well, unlike, say, Milk, in Lesbian Vampire Killers, the nasty lesbians get their comeuppance. With stakes. There's probably nothing in the least Freudian…

Maybe if there was another 1981,

1981's an interesting one – I was out protesting for that and have recently completed a history paper where I covered 1981, both anecdotally and big picture, in a seminar. In retrospect, 1981 was simmering for a long time, even General Kippenberger harrumphed about…

When the citizenry feel threatened and afraid, they're much more likely to agree to, or at least not resist, intrusive, limiting measures "for your own good".

At what point would law and order politics jump the shark? Maybe if there was another 1981, or if we had our equivalent of…

It's well past time we stopped using 'paedophilia!' as a way to shut down discussion.

Yes, that strategy is much the same as using possible terrorism to massively increase public surveillance. The UK seems especially OTT.

I also think govts, including our own, allow certain types of crime to go…

As for the "safe adults" thing, it riles me a bit because for years, even as qualified registered teachers, we weren't allowed to so much as change a child's clothing without witnesses.

At about the same time, my partner was a volunteer at our children's kindergarten, running the library there.…

I feel that kind of thinking – "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about' style – is very thin edge of the wedge.

Well, given that the Home Office has had a string of high profile cases where highly confidential information about citizens had ended up…

I feel that kind of thinking – "if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about' style – is very thin edge of the wedge. I don't know about your kindy, but a few years…

UK Home Office and education officials simply cannot understand why anyone wouldn’t want to…

We understand that Internet NZ is happy with our plans

it says

Internet NZ has requested further information which the Department will provide.

Understood. As for any lingering shame, I hope that some day soon Ellis will receive some form of full exoneration & apology. Until then, Lynley Hood has done a phenomenal job of putting the truth on record.

I agree. time for class...

he Digital Child Exploitation Filtering System, funded with $150,000 in this year’s Budget, will be operated by the Department in partnership with ISPs, and will focus solely on websites offering clearly objectionable images of child sexual abuse, which is a serious offence for anyone in New Zealand to access.

$150,000…

Sorry if that was unclear Joe, The Peter Ellis mention was in no way about him per se but by the damage done to him and the children in the process of using the children as pawns in the whole nightmare.

Understood. As for any lingering shame, I hope that…

To be clear, I do not believe that filtering will stop people who are even slightly motivated to find this stuff.

Sacha's hit it on the head here. What's being blocked is a list of URLs. Web addresses, to put it another way. It's not blocking email traffic, peer-to-peer applications,…

Also of images of adults who are understood to be depicting juveniles.

This is an area I do have concerns with, because it's a not-unpopular fetish.

Also, what's a child? If it's 'anyone under the legal age of consent', what do you do with images of fourteen year olds produced…

Speaking of which
http://books.whitcoulls.co.nz/lost-girls/ISBN9781891830747

...

I have seen complaints about the use of the phrase "child sex abuse images" to cover images where the abuse is considered no more than the taking of the photograph. Also…

/me kills self in shame.

Does the DIA expect or require ISPs to inform their customers that their internet connections are being filtered. Do you have any…

there is a contradiction between the implicit claim that filtering works to stop people seeing stuff, and the claim that a list of said stuff cannot be circulated lest people use it to see stuff.

To be clear, I do not believe that filtering will stop people who are even…

“If we did, inevitably some people would visit them in the interim, effectively facilitating further offending and making the Department party to the further exploitation of children,”

That implies that at some point in the future the list would be made available, which would be good.

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say there, Mark, but I find the implications distinctly distasteful and just plain *wrong*.

Because it's easier to vilify than get to the heart of the problem. Not until the sickos are seen as people will we have any hope of truly…

Any international proxy server will however. Relatively easy to arrange.

I agree. That's why I followed that paragraph with:

"Alternatively, if the filtering isn't robust and is easily evaded, the whole thing is pointless. Unless it's a way to collect potential offenders' information for later investigation..."

I mean, I understand…

The loquacious version for the less technically inclined: your computer is not secure. Not even slightly. The ease with which malicious software can be installed on your computer cannot be overrated.

Sounds unlikely. Even if you had images on your machine, having malicious software which put them there would be…

Someone on Slashdot a couple of days ago was claiming that your actual traders of kiddie porn post encrypted DVDs to each other, which strikes me as plausible.

Arrests have been made in Australia which involved staking out a PO box and waiting for someone to take delivery of actual…

But hang on. Those sites are blocked. That's the whole freakin' point. How can it matter if we know what they are? If the filtering scheme…

A male spotted hyena which attempted to mate with a female which succeeded in driving it off, eventually turned to its ten-month-old cub, repeatedly mounting it and ejaculating on it. The cub sometimes ignored this and sometimes struggled 'slightly as if in play'. The mother did not intervene.[56]

Infants and…

Why bother?

Too keep some gravy trainers in lattes and plush offices till the cows come home. Oh to have that job....as Mr Lock said

"There is a difference – a big difference – between a people and those who rule them."

sincerity.

And even if you did run across it, and quickly backed out, then suddenly got searched by the police and had a couple of images in your cache, the police are quickly going to realise that you're not the person they're looking for.

Hundreds of images in folders, different story.

…

Which raises the question of whether you're still a shore girl or a westie.

The 'which kind of Aucklander are you?' Facebook quiz informed me that I was a westie, and we know how reliable those things are.

(Anyway, I was born in Venezuela to a Cajun father and an…

That's what happens in Britain. Here in NZ you'll get one of these. Our system will at least be honest.

Can't quite get my head around this, So if you click on the unpublished URL, you will be redirected to the warning screen telling you why the site is blocked.…

But in a decade of pron-surfing and writing and commenting, I've never run across any child pornography, not once.

And even if you did run across it, and quickly backed out, then suddenly got searched by the police and had a couple of images in your cache, the police are…

You can take the boy out of the Shore, Kyle, but...

Which raises the question of whether you're still a shore girl or a westie.

I know nothing about how paedophiles collect their material, but I wonder how much this software will stop. If it's torrented or emailed in zip files then this system won't do anything?

... or if you get it through a web proxy in Ruritania. Motivated people can get round it.

I know nothing about how paedophiles collect their material, but I wonder how much this software will stop. If it's torrented or emailed in zip files then this system won't do anything?

I've seen a '90% peer to peer' figure bandied around, but no basis for it. But if you…

Tis true, lived here almost as long as in Auckland now.

You can take the boy out of the Shore, Kyle, but...

Regardless of media, 'objectionable' is a subjective term, and I sometimes have problems with the way it's been applied.

K, fair nuff. That is consistent :)

I understand Sacha's point about the list, if published, becoming a menu for perverts but how can they consider (if indeed, they are considering)…

My thoughts too. Child pornography that requires the abuse of actual children is obviously abhorrent, exploitative and illegal, and I don't think anyone here would support it.
..
But there's a middle ground – say, drawings or animations of child sex abuse that appear intended to arouse desire in paedophiles…

It's about protecting the process from potential abuse, when it's all happening behind closed doors.

That's the real problem: secrecy automatically begats suspicion, and deservedly so. Just look at what the Australians got away with before someone leaked their list.

Oh, and speaking of the Australians, their scheme [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goEEbsEDEM4&feature=player_embedded|seems to be…

I should say, in case it sounds otherwise, that it's not…

Is that last question ripe for its own Ministerial or OIA request?

Might I have spent the last couple of days trying to frame weird indirect questions that might actually get answered? Like, asking about what's NOT on the list? Or OIA-ing them every couple of months and asking if…

I wonder how often (or just how many times) one would have to transgress before being regarded as…

That's what happens in Britain. Here in NZ you'll get one of these. Our system will at least be honest.

Seems from the details provided in the link that the menu will be made available on the internet dish by dish. Looking for bestiality? heck no this site has been…

Kyles from Otago

Argh. :)

I was just curious why you'd argue against blocking objectionable material on the internet. Is that an argument you'd use for all media?

Kyle, I've listed my actual problems with this scheme in the article. None of them is 'because it's blocking child pornography'. Regardless of media, 'objectionable' is a…

In China there's a forest of blocked sites, it's not going to…

Is there an arrangement anywhere that works?

this stuff is pretty bad and keeping people from inadvertently stumbling over it is probably in their interest.

as a primary focus. Question I have is as Emma mentioned; the DIA will be keeping a log of people who try to…

Kyle, that was in response to Tess's initial comment

OK. I was just curious why you'd argue against blocking objectionable material on the internet. Is that an argument you'd use for all media?

which is why you'll never see a book with an M15+ sticker on it.

Must remember Kyles from Otago where even personal correspondence is run by the Censor...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10584138

Doesn't this apply to everything off the internet as well? Shouldn't they use the same standards that the censors use in relation to books, magazines, dvds, computer games etc?

They do, as Emma notes, already use different rules for different media, but they use the rules established by the Censor.…

Would it matter if they blocked all the objectionable material that they could? I'm not really seeing a downside here.

A position Tess herself has backed away from. However, when you say:

the same standards that the censors use in relation…

But 'objectionable' is a subjective term. As Craig suggests, what about 'objectionable' material that's used for academic or theraputic purposes?

Doesn't this apply to everything off the internet as well? Shouldn't they use the same standards that the censors use in relation to books, magazines, dvds, computer games etc?

As…

Unless one of the incriminating pictures was the desktop background or something, what the hell are computer repair technicians doing checking out the contents of a customer's hard drive?

Start, Recent Documents... That's perfectly legit if you're making sure the computer's working properly. Or even opening My Documents and seeing…

there are Hindu paintings showing a queen mating with a white stallion for a ritual

It may have been sexual activity, but I think you'll find that it wasn't mating.

On the other hand, maybe that's where the centaurs came from....

Having been shown people having their throat slashed by an inconsiderate flatmate, and hearing the gargled last gasps for breath, I'd have to disagree with you there Emma.

A few years ago, after the invasion of Iraq, a flatmate thought it was a good idea to show me a video…

What kind of repairs were required? How well was the incriminating material hidden?

I've heard endless iterations of this, and I'm very curious. Unless one of the incriminating pictures was the desktop background or something, what the hell are computer repair technicians doing checking out the contents of a customer's…

Don't worry, I will ... though I may wait until I'm home before searching :-)

Well if you are determined it's the asvamedha sacrifice.

describes, depicts, expresses, or otherwise deals with matters such as sex... likely to be injurious to the public good

Richard Worth?

Anyway, looking at the act I'd have said it covers BDSM in an only slightly more specific way to how it covers "sex" in that section. But I don't not…

The release of the filtering list (particularly in an electronic format) would facilitate access to images of child sexual buse images. I am therefore withholding this information in terms of section 6(c) of the Official Information Act (where the release of this information is likely…

But if you haved two porn films of the same degree of explicitness, and one's vanilla porn and the other's BDSM porn? One gets restricted and the other gets banned?

I wonder whether there may be three scenarios:

– BDSM shown clearly as consensual play

– Acts of bondage, coercion…

The pictures of it that I have seen were in a book in a university library. So you'll have to find your own :)

Don't worry, I will ... though I may wait until I'm home before searching :-)

It appears that in practice some matters are considered automatically bad, but this would not be one as far as I can see

Well, yeah, the 'degree' clauses should mean that, say, a serious film that involved a couple of BDSM scenes for obvious SLAPS value wouldn't get banned. But…

Jpgs plz :-)

The pictures of it that I have seen were in a book in a university library. So you'll have to find your own :)

That's all BDSM material. All of it. BDSM practice is LEGAL.

Bear in mind that you're in the "consideration is given to the extent, degree and manner" section there. The relevant bit of the act being that it doesn't just deal with the matters the law mentions, but does so…

For example there are Hindu paintings showing a queen mating with a white stallion for a ritual and there are ancient Greek images on pottery that are pornographic.

Jpgs plz :-)

So no. I change my mind. Whilst I want some things blocked I do think we should be very…

* As in "normal people don't know about depraved shit like that..."

I refer you to section 132A.

I stand corrected, which I pretty much expect as a matter of course from Graeme. I'd looked here, on the Internal Affairs website – and other pages on that site where they talk about what their job is.

That's an ambiguous construction. Just how dodgy was that flatmate?

ha. The flatmate was ok....a little morbid...the subsequent cactus trip on the other hand was far from ok, No one wants to be chased through the good people of New Brighton's sections at 3am by imaginary murder. But when the…

... if you look at the legislation that governs censorship in New Zealand, nowhere is child pornography separated from other objectionable material.

I refer you to section 132A.

Having been shown people having their throat slashed by an inconsiderate flatmate, and hearing the gargled last gasps for breath, I'd have to disagree with you there Emma.

Sorry, so poorly worded; the throat wasn't slashed by the flatmate. The flatmate thought it would be funny to show me the…

No-one's asking you to be. But if other people are enthusiastic about reading Justine or perusing Tiny Nibbles or watching Reservoir Dogs, they shouldn't have to rely on other people being enthusiastic about it before they're allowed to.

All these things are legal.

Actually I have been thinking further. For…

I think the decision to withhold the blacklist has a credible foundation (basically, that releasing the information would enable criminal activity), but it is worth a shot.

Definitely. And if it fails, that's what WikiLeaks is for.

And yes, the response then was timely, thorough and generally excellent. It's the…

Having been shown people having their throat slashed by an inconsiderate flatmate

That's an ambiguous construction. Just how dodgy was that flatmate?

Having been shown people having their throat slashed by an inconsiderate flatmate, and hearing the gargled last gasps for breath, I'd have to disagree with you there Emma.

Mark, I don't mean in watching, I mean in dialogue. Hence the phrase 'somebody think of the children'. The Blackout copyright campaign…

I'm just not that enthusiastic about pornography or violence, even if it is consensual.

No-one's asking you to be. But if other people are enthusiastic about reading Justine or perusing Tiny Nibbles or watching Reservoir Dogs, they shouldn't have to rely on other people being enthusiastic about it before they're…

Nothing else has the same STFU emotional effect

Having been shown people having their throat slashed by an inconsiderate flatmate, and hearing the gargled last gasps for breath, I'd have to disagree with you there Emma.

strange precedent to set or message to send -child pornography above all else in the danger stakes.

If I were an Evil Genius, and I wanted to institute extremely invasive censorship without stirring a freedom of speech kerfuffle, this is exactly what I'd do. Start off by ONLY blocking child…

And I understand that a lot of people won't. But 'objectionable' is a subjective term. As Craig suggests, what about 'objectionable' material that's used for academic or theraputic purposes? And look at that list:

strange precedent to set or message to send -child pornography above all else in the danger…

I'm just not that enthusiastic about pornography or violence, even if it is consensual.

Someone suggested to me that it might be possible to forward all of your traffic through the DIA filter server.

Easy way to make it all local and save money! :)

please note that in this context 'quick' may mean 'delayed as long as judiciously possible'

Request filed: April 13.
Response sent: April 24.
Total time: 9 working days.
OIA time limit: 20 working days.

That's good service. I'd also note that the response was complete and generally helpful, and that…

How very dare you object?

Would it matter if they blocked all the objectionable material that they could? I'm not really seeing a downside here.

And I understand that a lot of people won't. But 'objectionable' is a subjective term. As Craig suggests, what about 'objectionable' material that's used for academic or theraputic purposes? And…

So no other objectionable material is being blocked?

From Thomas:

The trial scheme was used to filter child pornography including video, photos, stories and drawings. Other illegal material (as defined by New Zealand law) is not filtered.

Emphasis mine.

It is, I have to say, a very good scheme as these schemes go. They are only blocking child pornography sites, and blocking to the level of individual pages and images rather than whole sites.

only blocking child pornography? So no other objectionable material is being…

if I try to access a website containing the book's text or discussion of the same then, Houston, we have a problem?

Who the hell knows? It may be that the DIA is applying a very reasonable SLAPS test to the material to avoid doing so, but really the only…

The child pornography the DIA is blocking also includes material such as drawings or fiction, where no children were harmed in the production.

OK, so I can walk into any bookstore or public library and walk out with a copy of Lolita, but if I try to access a website…

Anyway, couldn't they just publish a list of the *names* of sites (not addresses?) Then they wouldn't be encouraging access to objectionable material (well, not without…

"We have been following the internet filtering debate in Australia but have no plans to introduce something similar here," says Communications and IT…