By all accounts he's been for a while, it's just that now he's at liberty to say it without contravening party policy.

It's quite refreshing that it's been so long I can't remember properly, but I think his previous public position was 'we should let the states decide' and a…

Woman beat young son with ladle
The woman had previously pleaded not guilty to a charge of assault with intent but pleaded guilty to an amended lesser charge of assault yesterday.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2474515/Woman-beat-young-son-with-ladle

Lets wait until the outcome of the Bain trial is released before deciding on that one.

But if you concentrate on thinking of your top All Black team of the 1970s you can make it last six whole minutes.

Going, Going, gone?

Any longer though the tea gets cold.

Any longer you'd just be showing off, really.

Wow. You guys must really be into some Sting-and-Trudie Tantric-sex type stuff.

Nah, mate, that's too weird. But if you concentrate on thinking of your top All Black team of the 1970s you can make it last six whole minutes.

Any longer though the tea gets cold.

I just threw myself on the first vagina I came across. Right as rain in two minutes flat.

Heterosexuality: you're doin' it wrong. It's meant to last twice that long.

You realise I'm filing these away for later use, right?

(I had to. We were on 799 comments.)

Actually, I…

I just threw myself on the first vagina I came across. Right as rain in two minutes flat.

Heterosexuality: you're doin' it wrong. It's meant to last twice that long.

Wow. You guys must really be into some Sting-and-Trudie Tantric-sex type stuff.

Right.....?

I just threw myself on the first vagina I came across. Right as rain in two minutes flat.

Heterosexuality: you're doin' it wrong. It's meant to last twice that long.

(If you found this advice useful, please consider making a donation.)

People may turn to gay relationships if their original relationships don't work out.

And it even works the other way — after I caught my first live-in boyfriend fucking my (ex-)best friend in our bed, I just threw myself on the first vagina I came across. Right as rain in…

Yeah, having lived through a depression and two world wars did not in any way interfere with my grandmother's being a judgemental bitch.

For sure, there is no guaranteed link between having seen plenty and being cool with it all.

I'm reminded now of the last time I visited my…

Yeah, having lived through a depression and two world wars did not in any way interfere with my grandmother's being a judgemental bitch.

Snap! (But the other one, very Catholic, was totally right on. Go figure.)

So I guess we're left not being able to draw conclusions about individuals on…

It's so conventional to pigeonhole those older than us as somehow knowing less than we do, when as you say, they've pretty much seen it all.

Yeah, having lived through a depression and two world wars did not in any way interfere with my grandmother's being a judgemental bitch.

OTOH,…

Now for some reason I'm thinking about Ursula LeGuin's…

I'm constantly surprised that people are still opting for marriage in NZ, now that CUs are available. Why wouldn't you go for the non-discriminatory option, given the choice?

I wonder whether some people have a lingering sense that if they get CUed then their grandparents (etc) won't understand the significance.…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXPcBI4CJc8

It's about full participation in the guts of the business of being human.

I just want to repeat this because of how perfectly you have nailed it.

Joe – I felt being a bit snarky was a fitting response to someone whos critique of her writing of love and inclusiveness resorted to addresseng her sex life.
She has to deal with the Patriachy of the Catholic Faith constantly and is a shining light of hope and change.

…

Taking such a myopic view of religion isn't becoming.

Isn't becoming? FFS! Now we have to be polite and look nice when discussing a fundamental human rights failure, a failure that is positively embraced by many religions.

Taking such a myopic view of religion isn't becoming.

That's a really strange thing to say. This thread isn't about religion, it's about gay marriage. Religion has only been discussed as it relates to discrimination against gay people. Tess's presence meant the emphasis was going to be on the Catholic…

Joe, might want to read that again (but put the chip down first). She is being explicite in her expression of truth, couched within a religious perspective.

JT, I responded to your post in good faith. From your semiliterate and feebly snarky reply I've gained all the insight I need…

that's what happens when countries pass marriage equality laws: straight marriage goes up, as ordinary people (I surmise) find marriage now more relevant to them, because it's evolved to be more in touch with its society, more inclusive.

That's true for me (in theory, at least; in practice I have…

Giovanni, that is a rather confused statement about Church infallibity & a pardon.

How so, thinking person? The pardon is there in order to restore the infallibility. Since the Church was so obviously and spectacularly wrong about Galileo, they tried to fix their own history by rehabilitating him (instead of apologising…

Giovanni, that is a rather confused statement about Church infallibity & a pardon. One negates the other, but will resist taking on all of…

Taking such a myopic view of religion isn't becoming. Can I suggest a little Sr Chittister?

Specifcally what? A search of the site you've linked to yields this passing mention of same-sex marriage, but fudges the issue by talking in very general terms about the need for god's love. A…

Exposing wrongs is a right thing to do.

Oh, definitely. Shall we talk about the memo that the Vatican sent in the eighties threatening civilians who testimonies against priests in a civil tribunal of excommunication, and of a sin greater than sexual abuse on the part of a priest?

Although,…

Benetvision exists
to encourage the development of
contemporary spirituality
from a feminist and global perspective
through the works of Joan Chittister.

http://www.benetvision.org/Ideas_In_Passing/index.html

Exposing wrongs is a right thing to do. I wait patiently for…

I wonder what they'd do if their God came down and said, "You're misrepresenting me..."

Probably the same thing they did last time that happened: nail him to a tree.

And that's what happens when countries pass marriage equality laws: straight marriage goes up, as ordinary people (I surmise) find marriage now more relevant to them, because it's evolved to be more in touch with its society, more inclusive.

I suspect there's probably as many people that go home and…

Re the Huckerbee interview: I absolutely disagree that "marriage" means what they say it means, but pretending for a moment they're right: what would change if the word changed? Is it a case of, "My marriage wouldn't mean what I thought it meant"? Given that the people "defending" marriage…

Double entry accounting?

Okay, I'm pretty sure accountants don't do that sort of thing.

Normal accountants don't do that sort of crap so they wouldn't know the other meaning?

But Emma – don't you know nice girls don't do that sort of thing?

I believe I have been told that, rather a lot.

Double entry accounting?

Okay, I'm pretty sure accountants don't do that sort of thing.

A wee search has explained this (to me) as Giovanni having a few unresloved family issues I'm sure he was teased about as a kid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozef_Tiso

http://www.spectator.sk/articles/view/31550/2/archbishop_prays_for_tiso.html

To be fair, in those days the involvment of two people probably counted as group sex. Everyone was doing it, basically.

Very good, Giovanni.

Oh basic maths skills...

To be fair, in those days the involvment of two people probably counted as group sex. Everyone was doing it, basically.

I'd still like an explanation of who exactly was doing the begetting circa Cain's generation, but that could be a threadjack of truly biblical proportions.

going on since Adam and Eve

Skillful implication of biblical approval, I thought..

"This kind of thing has been going on since Adam and Eve," he said.

Oh basic maths skills...

Heh!

"Adam and Eve and Pinch Me went down to the river to swim. Adam and Eve were drowned. Who was saved?"

The first time I heard that, when I was about…

He said stories from the rugby league world had given group sex a bad press.

"This kind of thing has been going on since Adam and Eve," he said.

Oh basic maths skills...

When someone on TV is seriously infuriating you, go get your checkbook straight away and make a donation to a counter-cause.

I knew, some years ago, the father of a staunch conservative Anglican family who used to do that. It was when Paul Reeves was head of the NZ Anglican…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz1GqFWNHOU

People may turn to gay relationships if their original relationships don't work out.

Man.

Who do I donate this toaster oven to?

Lindsay's relationship with Sam has made me seriously reconsider my own sexual orientation.

It certainly sets the bar for a healthy, adult, enjoyable relationship.

Children are no longer influenced by their feelings, they are influenced by the media (just look at Lindsay Lohan)

Oh yes. Lindsay's relationship with Sam has made me seriously reconsider my own sexual orientation.

People may turn to gay relationships if their original relationships don't work out.

Yeah. That's how it works.

Which will be known in the future as 'the gay window'? How bizarre.

I know! How will that work when doing marriage-related form-filling-out official things? If you're a same-sex couple, will you have to produce a marriage certificate issued between such-a-date and such-a-date? I foresee nightmarish bureaucratic holdups.

Also: feh.

while also upholding the marriages that happened in the interim

Which will be known in the future as 'the gay window'? How bizarre.

(NB…

dragging the bride up to the altar and forcing her to sign up etc.

"Excuse me, but before I can conduct this wedding I'm just going to need to check whether that shotgun is loaded."

My partner and I were just discussing what the celebrant is actually FOR and why you have to have one at all.

I presume it does have a role as an independent person at a wedding to ensure that nothing improper is going on – dragging the bride up to…

last night my belle and I happened to be watching an old episode of the daily show(*) featuring an interview with Mike Huckabee. Here's part II, where they discuss gay marriage.

When it first aired, this interview riled me up so much that even yelling at the television didn't help.…

Back a few pages

Missing link to the Huckabee interview above, here.

Very helpful, thanks Gio. I am coming to appreciate why the lack of traction in my point, now…

Emma, feel free to do the same.

Done and doing.

So, if I'm reading this right, Deborah, Russell, and Gareth: you broadly agree with the view I've developed, that marriage is something the state could get out of almost completely?

From a legal standpoint, marriage is pretty much…

Emma, feel free to do the same.

but there's no "the institution of marriage" thank god.

Well...I have this image in my mind of some Monty Pythonesque big brown forbidding building, with low steps and faceless windows, into which two separate lines of people are marching, one from each side of the building, and inside they go…

Well I kinda think he can :>

Not by virtue of being a mechanic (I was careful to include that).

And yeah, I'm happy for anyone to be the guy, girl, computer terminal or ewok upfront; have your wedding performed however you see fit, I say.

– presuming that the…

Yes.... but to the extent that Father What'isname is performing a role mandated by the state, then he needs to perform that role in respect of any couples / trios / quartets etc. who come his way and ask him to to the job.

OK, I follow the point now.…

I know of no way in which fair-haired people can be prevented
from falling in love with dark-haired people; and I do not believe
that whether a man was long-headed or round-headed ever made
much difference to any one who felt inclined to break…

aka – a calculus of covenants!

WHO would ever settle for LESS!

The point of the state should simply be "sign the contracty bit and give it to us". I see no need for anyone to have to manage that process – if you choose to have Father Whosawhatsit do it then all power to you.

Quite. Otherwise we'd be facing the…

we still needed a celebrant, and apparently a witnessed ceremonial declaration of intent

It's another hang over from religious marriage IMO. The state can only allow people that "really mean it in some illdefined and clearly inaccurate way" to marry. That was the priest, the celebrant is the "secular" alternative.…

I don't see why my mechanic couldn't be the guy "up the front" at a wedding – presuming that the only state recognition of marriage is an official form signed by both partners with appropriate witnesses.

My partner and I were just discussing what the celebrant is actually FOR and…

Should he, by virtue of being a mechanic, be able to grant me a civil marriage? No

Well I kinda think he can :>
I don't see why my mechanic couldn't be the guy "up the front" at a wedding – presuming that the only state recognition of marriage is…

Should he, by virtue of being a mechanic, be able to grant me a civil marriage? No

Well I kinda think he can :>
I don't see why my mechanic couldn't be the guy "up the front" at a wedding – presuming that the only state recognition of marriage is…

for me that's crossing the line from acceptance of "marry whoever and however the f*ck you want" to actively dictating how someone should (or shouldn't) get marriage because you dislike their religion.

I want to be married by my mechanic. Should he, by virtue of being a mechanic, be able…

That gives that person a particular standing within the state. That is, it gives religion a particular standing within the state. I'm agin that.

Fair enough, but for me that's crossing the line from acceptance of "marry whoever and however the f*ck you want" to actively dictating how someone should…

i am only after an ever closerand more intimate inspection of the fundamental difference between the formal and the institutional, or if you're up for a tipple of ac-yak, the play between the synchronic and the diachronic – and simply put, what…

if that is not evidence of the most lazy, bilious & dire exercise of a purely resentful imagination vastly divorced from all fact, fable, legend and tradition generating Culture then hey. see you in hell with Monty Python's Flying Circus, aye!

And you are living in what part of the nation…

the point that the 'education' of so many new zealanders i meet seems to me to have proceeded from, or at least been eclipsed by, so much fall-out from the the tongue of Eric Idle or someone?

and is this flicking…

well how are people feeling about I/S's plan to amend the Marriage Act?

Sounds good to me. 'Though very roughly I think that the state ought to get out of the marriage business altogether, and only maintain a register of people who have formed households, or something like that, for…

for me it's about opening up the institution of marriage to everyone in whatever way they see fit. So long as you sign the official bit of paper somewhere, it shouldn't matter if that's in a church, a backyard or a gang headquarters.

Nah... I see that as…

Seriously be happy when that lot die off, too.

There are more than enough replacements from the successive generations to keep the traditions of ignorance, suppression and intolerance that this lot call their wisdoms and teachings alive

do be a good fellow and point me to at least some of your historical sources

Since the last time you wandered around this point it was flicked away with little effort by several people, be a good boy and do your own reading.

And Kyle, I know how you feel. My initial purpose in writing this column was to just…

I fear however we've left behind 'the gays' and their need to be treated like the rest of us and either have marriage, or have it done away with as a civil institution.

I think that's because for most of us, it's a no-brainer. The only issue is how to…

I fear however we've left behind 'the gays' and their need to be treated like the rest of us and either have marriage, or have it done away…

Everybody stay right there & don't post too much!

Heh, I have some gay porn I need to knock out this afternoon anyway.

do be a good fellow and point me to at least some of your historical…

Gah – have to run back to uni & then a meeting... Everybody stay right there & don't post too much!

Tui billboard.

the imams, many of whom are stupid old men, grossly out of touch...

Seriously be happy when that lot die off, too.

If anything Tess, as polite as she may be, has underlined my distaste for the Catholic Church. The calm,…

For me, there are parallels with how challenging disabling stereotypes falls largely on the shoulders of those who are least resourceful and connected. I'd rather see that load…

there are two of me

Just imagine the shit she gets. :)

Certainly a useful rhetorical step along the road to enlightenment for many people, albeit not a good place to stop and down tools?

In some cases, yes. Sometimes – and I in no way want to imply that it's the case here – politeness itself becomes a weapon, when you're…

It's not the words that offend me, but the underlying sentiment.

Certainly a useful rhetorical step along the road to enlightenment for many people, albeit not a good place to stop and down tools?

'Some of my best friends are Emma Hart.'

Yeah, it could work.

Oddly, this morning has included the discovery that there are two of me. That explains a LOT.

Yeah, it could work.

That's why I really don't care that Tess has been nice and polite. Give me Craig's vitriol any day. At least it's honest.

Which is more or less what Craig and I said back on page 1. I've had the experience of discovering that an acquaintance was using me in…

Jesus is playing favourites.

And I'd also like to give a, uh 'big shout out' (as I believe teh kidz say) to Gio's swan song a page or two ago.

Yes indeed.

One small thing – I'm really not comfortable with the term 'lapsed catholic', in the way it's been casually used here. While…

Hot dang, Deborah, you write like the enlightenment personified.

This was post #666 – I'm sure there's a Dan Brown novel in that...

please, please, compliment me on my sincerity, and my effort, because, really, those things ought to count

Yes, bravo, Deborah. That crystallised a lot of half-formed thoughts that have been swirling around in my head for the last few days. Especially this bit.

I accept the Church's teachings.

Lets be…

But I also appreciate being able to debate/converse/discuss in a civilised manner with people who disagree with my position.

Sure, Mrs. Skin, but as they say, there's a fine line between charm and smarm. While I appreciate that you may benefit from the intellectual exercise, I find it rather annoying…

please, please, compliment me on my sincerity, and my effort, because, really, those things ought to count

Goodness, yes!

That goes for pretty much everyone who's posted here. And that includes Tess.

I hear what you're saying Deborah, and I agree to a large extent. But I also appreciate being…

I reread my way through all of this thread before writing this (please, please, compliment me on my sincerity, and my effort, because, really, those things ought to count) ...

As we used to say back in the day, maximum respect.

@Deborah

Yes... but I can't help but think that people spouting bigotry and hatred rely on our good manners not to call them out on it. As long as everyone is polite and civilised and above all nice in their manner, you can say quite vicious and nasty things.

.…

I disagree with you, but really appreciate your detailed explanations of your beliefs and how you apply them.

(Though I cannot comprehend why any intelligent person would choose to align themselves with the Catholic Church...).

Thanks,
Brent.

There needs to be a far more probing analysis of the structure of authority within the Catholic church, and the culture of deference and obedience expected of lay people towards priests. These bred…

Just as it is unfair to taint all clergy by the actions of a few, the same goes for gay activists:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1178354/Gay-rights-campaigner-led-double-life-leader-paedophile-ring-carried-catalogue-child-abuse.html

Yeah, that's the same. That's exactly the same. See the way his organisation…

Just as it is unfair to taint all clergy by the actions of a few, the same goes for gay activists:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1178354/Gay-rights-campaigner-led-double-life-leader-paedophile-ring-carried-catalogue-child-abuse.html

Yeah, that's the same. That's exactly the same. See the way his organisation covered up for him, and actively concealed and enabled his abuse? See how their instinct…

Do you accept people having any form of sincere belief in the Divine?

Yes. I think it's weird but I accept that it's genuine. But that's a very different thing than having a sincere belief in a religion. Also I have trouble with sincere belief in Vatican dogma from an…

Interesting book reviews Tess, seeing as they're from a world that I'm not too familiar with. Coughlin's a clever writer, but again, primarily an apologist for the recent papacy. It's hard not to see his repeated blaming of institutional abuse on already disgraced bishops as a rather…

If it was priestly celibacy that caused the sexual abuse, why is the Anglican Church dealing with the same issue? I've given a link to one case, but there are more.

A warning for anyone who may get upset by…

What I'm saying Tess is this – why could you not raise your children with a firm set of moral guidelines and connected to their spirituality without resorting to a church?

The moral guideline part I understand. But how could I raise my children connected to spirituality? Part of experienceing…

Remember it's Catholic children who got abused, so your average pew sitter is NOT happy.

…

Hi Jackie, I'v been thinking of you since my "lawfully wedded wife" has been doing the early childhood education degree. She is planing to do like you.

Oh good! We need more good 'uns. Keep encouraging her – it can be a bit of a mind fuck at times. It…

Why can children not have access to a spiritual life without the church/place of worship thing? Just asking.

Not sure if you read it, but I did try that and I personally found it unfulfilling. I'm not saying other do, but I did.

I was very drawn to Hinduism, but…

Hence you get all that Jesus as the lamb of sacrifice saving us from death symbolism.

The word "Easter" has pagan origins, as do all the…

I don't particularly see why anyone would want to get married who isn't religious.

I've been wondering why…

Warning: this link could be triggering for survivors of sexual assault and rape.

"The greatest of evils"

And there is a Bishop that needs to go, NOW.

– shakes head –

This is exactly why there is so much anger from lay Catholics, because some Bishops just persist in not…

One of the problems (so I have heard) under John Paul II was the accusing priests of sexual misconduct was a classic way that the KGB tried to remove priests in Poland. So he didn't believe it. I just don't think…

"The greatest of evils"

Please cut them some slack, even know you most likely don't know who they are.

Oh God yes. These poor people have been damaged in ways that are likely to affect them for life and most won't have come forward.

Whilst I think certain actions are sinful, I have no…

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=6165&var_recherche=sexual+abuse

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=5967&var_recherche=sexual+abuse

How about providing a link to one of these catholic blogs that offers constructive criticism of the policies of the current papacy?

http://ncronline.org/news/accountability/irish-abuse-report-demands-decisive-action

Diocesis of Florence mean anything to you?

No. The reports that I know of are from the English speaking Catholic world. America and Ireland for the most part. But also New Zealand and Australia. As far as I am aware, these are historical claims of abuse, especially from children's homes…

Please, can you stop reading my words in the worst light possible.

How about providing a link to one of these catholic blogs that offers constructive criticism of the policies of the current papacy? On an issue that you might personally feel some sympathy with. It's something you've been conspicuously…

I assure you, no one is happy that serial abusers were covered up for.

Were? Diocesis of Florence mean anything to you?

Remember it's Catholic children who got abused, so your average pew sitter is NOT happy.

Wow, that was dodgy in about fifteen different ways.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

Ah, so you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs then. That seems awfully cynical.

I was making an observation, not claiming it was okay.

Please, can you stop reading my words in the worst light possible.

If 'faithful' catholics were to constructively criticise the church's authority...

You obviously don't…

If anything I think it's really hurt those priests who are good men.

I wasn't clear enough here.

The greatest harm has been those children and their families who have been so deeply wounded. This harm has been perpetrated by the abusers and then covered up by leaders who should…

That gays make bad parents even though research tells us otherwise

I did not say that.

Where ever there are vulnerable children or adults there will be people who take sexual advantage of that.

Ah, so you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs then. That seems awfully cynical.

Just as it is unfair to taint all clergy by the actions of a few, the same…

But I HAVEN"T insisted that. I have said, over and over and over again that people must be free to do what they will in this regards.

Actually, that's a far cry from what you've said at many points in the thread. That gays make bad parents even though research…

I'll go back to playing nice.

Yes, we have had a problem with sexual abuse.

Is it all sorted now?

I bloody hope so, my oldest son is an altar boy.

If anything I think it's really hurt those priests who are good men. I've seen my boys rush up and hug the priest and he…

Otherwise it's that NIN Kirk-Spocking video...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1178354/Gay-rights-campaigner-led-double-life-leader-paedophile-ring-carried-catalogue-child-abuse.html

Pedophile sex, Tess, your church is well known for it.

Yes, we have had a problem with sexual abuse. OTOH so have all the other churches.

http://www.reformation.com/

And lets not forget sexual abuse in education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education

I mean really... Where ever there are vulnerable children or adults there will be…

If I could say it slower for you, I would.

Each and every person has to choose for themselves, including my children. Would saying it _again_ help?

Shouldn't you rather be knocking up a hairy undergarment and mortifying yourself through prayer and fasting for the sake of steven's misguided soul?

We're not into hair shirts, we do bare feet, we are the Discaled Carmelites after all, and you need to call Opus Dei if you want to…

I mean seriously, do I need to make you a t-shit that says "feel free to disagree with Tess" and make you wear the damn thing until the point hits home?

In your dreams. Shouldn't you rather be knocking up a hairy undergarment and mortifying yourself through prayer and fasting…

Until such time as a future Vatican decree might endorse the consumption of rocks on Friday (stranger things have happened). Then the obsequious and grovelling 'faithful' will, as always, comply.

Well, that's not really your problem, is it.

So people can debate it, even legalise it, you can call rocks "fish", or call trees "sky", but it doesn't make it so.

Until such time as a future Vatican decree might endorse the consumption of rocks on Friday (stranger things have happened). Then the obsequious and grovelling 'faithful' will,…

It's your insistence that they should apply to the rest of society that makes you bigoted.

But I HAVEN"T insisted that. I have said, over and over and over again that people must be free to do what they will in this regards.

I mean seriously, do I need to…

The definition of marriage that Catholicism subscribes too is about the meaning of heterosexual sex within conjugal bonds. It…

Yet those ideas about life would have been mainstream until recently.

Along with the mistreatment of women and children, slavery, war... viva la traditional values! But, to reiterate, nobody begrudges you your superstition or your obscurantism, Tess. It's your insistence that they should apply to the rest of society that…

Homosexual sex, masturbation, contraception, abortion have all been…

From what you say you are actively seeking to prevent conception by timing of intercourse. That sounds awfully like contra-ception to me, and I'm sure there are other church teachings about the moral similarity of actively and passively committing sin,

Did you read the link I gave? Here's a quote…

That's from the Catechism, number 2352 which is all about masturbation.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P85.HTM

Read for yourself…

From what you say you are actively seeking to prevent conception by timing of intercourse. That sounds awfully like contra-ception to me, and I'm sure there are other church teachings…

You can have any number of sincere beliefs you like. That doesn't make the content of the belief true.

Or any less monstrous.

And how do you explain Catholicism/Christianity prior to feudalism?

I'm not trying to explain – I'm offering an example of actual medieval Catholic belief, as espoused by the all-pervasive church.

The fact that they were themselves a feudal landholder I'm sure had absolutely nothing to do with it (and ditto…

That's because most of them use 'artificial' contraception. (Most US Catholics do, anyway. Something like 70%, I think.)

I'm no stranger to working out my own cycle, actually, so I'm sure your method works fine if you dedicate some time to it. But saying it's not contraception is just doubletalk,…

Tess, how's the Atheist Inquistion treating you?

:) Fine, thanks for asking. So far my comfy chair has been tolerable.

I'm no theologian and I disagree with a few issues the Church Teaches. For me the value of religion is in communion and the teachings of the gospels, social justice…

The sincerity with which a belief is held is no indicator of the truth.

Sure. I agree with that. There are young earth creationists who are totally sincere, but I think they are wrong as well.

My point was whether or not Idiot allowed for any sincerity in religious belief,…

And you all seem to think that Catholics can't space their family or choose the number of children they want – they can.

That's because most of them use 'artificial' contraception. (Most US Catholics do, anyway. Something like 70%, I think.)

I'm no stranger to working out my own cycle,…

Do you accept people having any form of sincere belief in the Divine?

You can have any number of sincere beliefs you like. That doesn't make the content of the belief true. It's just a belief. By analogy, many children have a sincere belief in Santa Claus. That doesn't make…