it wasn't that long ago that common or garden variety criminals spent up to 18 months on remand awaiting their trials. A month is pretty good going, really.

its still too long. what exactly is it that the legal system is doing that requires so much time.
They can write…

Sure, I have no problem with keeping an eye on them; very sensible. Armed raids and locking them up without trial for a month is another matter altogether, especially when only 5 at most of the 17 were making such threats.

It wasn't that long ago that common or garden…

There is no excuse for sitting people in jail without being charged.

They all have bail now as far as I know.

Sure, I have no problem with keeping an eye on them; very sensible. Armed raids and locking them up without trial for a month is another matter altogether, especially when only 5 at most of the 17 were making such threats.

as much as I think the core of the…

When you're talking about 'killing white people for practice', stockpiling guns and honing your ability to ambush cars then you're the sort of person the police should keep a very close eye on

Sure, I have no problem with keeping an eye on them; very sensible. Armed raids and locking…

close up 12 nov tame iti interview??

Check out the eating media lunch style interviewer and his pen, the weird cutting of interview/translation/question, the interviewers superior knowledge attitude, Iti's barly controlled…

What do you want from me? Ten Hail Marys?

Bloody Marys would suffice although any other form of cocktail maybe suspect.

It is a shame this more moderate message…

Agreed – it's about a nutter/s who need a tap on the shoulder & any arms they may have removed. Not ninjas terrorising school kids.

The only successful terror campaign was done by farmers releasing the calicivirus. I felt betrayed at…

Be surprised if the arms charges go ahead now.

Fantasist fools – It is the kind of dribble that goes on at gun clubs et al.

When you're talking about 'killing white people for practice', stockpiling guns and honing your ability to ambush cars then you're the sort of person the police should keep a very close eye on.…

Why discuss armour-piercing bullets to go through stab proof vests? – They're not bullet proof & there's a big water-melon on top.

That Auckland dude isn't stable & anyone thinking popular rebellion is possible in…

So ... Dominion Post has revealed the secret evidence. It's pretty shocking. I still agree with Jon Minto, I think. why let it grow? Why didn't the police step in and talk to Tuhoe elders or Tuhoe police reps before the nonsense intensified?

Since Minto claimed that the taped evidence…

I had no idea that Tuhoe harboured…

And I’m a second generation Wigger/Nigger lover. Beat that.

I remember being grossly embarrased when my Mother, back in the 60s, gave a bag of old clothes to the road sweeper, who happened to be a Sikh, the look on his…

Steve I couldn't find what I was looking for in the Police Act- any pointers?

I've just read through your posts and can't figure what exactly you were looking for, unless it was the arms act you need?

Neil: I usually resist the temptation to respond to argumentum ad hominem but I have chosen to be flattered by you thinking I’m a recent convert(and it gives me the chance to show off). I’m glad I’m…

Kyle – some wiki magic:

The police returned fire and a two minute gun-battle ensued in which one policeman was shot in the ankle by a stray bullet that passed through the crib.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramoana_massacre

This is what can happen when cops…

I'm not sure, but I had thought that the…

I'm not against firearm ownership and see a real need to increase the destruction of pests. I really would like shooting courses to be part of firearms ownership & a greater restriction on weapons. Even a…

Speaking of which, Kyle, I think you are being disingenuous that in the context

I know that they have powers to do with mental health, what about a spaz who knowingly puts themselves in danger?

to mean

"an idiot who decides to ignore the helpful police officer who is telling…

Don't…

I would like to see chapter & verse of the Police Act (if you've got it & the time to spare)

Teh Police Act 1958 ;-)

AS – I agree on military…

That is interesting. Can you find the reference?

I can't remember where I saw it, i remember that it was a NZ publication. It was one of those figures that sticks in your mind.

A S
Semi-autos & bolt/pump action alike have the same class of licence. (I'm pretty sure – but I don't have one).
We have far too loose laws in regard to firearms.
150 firearms were stolen from a Christchurch address, including many pistols. Only 50 have been recovered so far.
There…

You know something of police incompetence with firearms then Steve?

You did say licenced, not competent

Johnno or A S – Can you tell me if the "police" who conducted the raids were licenced to use their firearms?

Ok I was being picky but if you had meant what you…

There is probably all you want to know here
.

You know something of police incompetence with firearms then Steve?

Here's HRW on Greece – any comparisons here?

Human rights abuses in Greece involved freedom of speech, discrimination against minorities, physical abuse of detainees and…

And talking of shame. Kyle

what about a spaz who knowingly puts themselves in danger?

hardly a socially aware statement, I cringed.

Spaz: One who is considered clumsy or inept.

Though I used it to mean "an idiot who decides to ignore the helpful police officer who is telling him/her…

I assume the reason this is the usual term is to avoid the negative connotations of the word racism, which has become such…

I don't disagree with that, but he was working with the definition that you provided, so you could be big about it and admit that it's "positive racism" rather than ignoring the fact that he's turned your words against you quite successfully.

It seems I should have clarified that 'positive…

Hmmmm

The image you're linking to appears to be a launcher attached to a gun; the launcher on its own would look much less ominous.

Yes, but in fact possession of a grenade launcher is a much more serious crime. A grenade launcher of any description is a restricted weapon,…

Tuhoe Waikaremoana Trust manager Tama Nikora said his people had been…

Well, we have a number of issues.

– do we know the police have actually found one?
– if so, do we know who it belonged to?
– if so, was it a dodgy-could-be-used-for-grenades one…

Hmmmm

The image you're linking to appears to be a launcher attached to a gun; the launcher on its own would look much less ominous.

If he kept it in his pocket then it would be good for making a real mess of some parts of his body that he was probably quite attached to.

I never said he was smrt.

Oh well, that's quite all right, then, if they routinely illegally detain people and wantonly destroy property while using psychological intimidation.

Well illegally detain people and wantonly destroy property is your interpretation. If there was a civil case then it's entirely possible that the police weren't breaking the law by…

Popular in US survivalist circles, in part because below a certain calibre they don't qualify as firearms.

Wouldn't seem to be much good for hunting, though.

I had a boyfriend once (a lot of my worst stories start like this) who constantly carried a 'thermite grenade launcher' around in his…

– and a 'grenade launcher capable of firing flares -

Apparently Tame Iti's partner had a car, that was capable of carrying all kinds of stuff, WMD's, Terrorists and very disturbing things. She also had a cellphone capable of sending messages to enemies of the state. The police, thank god,…

Aren't they essentially the same thing, differentiated mainly by the ammunition used?

Yep.

Popular in US survivalist circles, in part because below a certain calibre they don't qualify as firearms.

Wouldn't seem to be much good for hunting, though.

Can anyone point me towards any reliable breakdown of what the police found or is this information not yet in the public domain?

I don't think this information is available, which is part of the problem. Maybe this is because it is before the court?

I honestly honestly think that…

'grenade launcher capable of firing flares – which sounds a bit like a flare gun and doesn't sound very scary at all.

Aren't they essentially the same thing, differentiated mainly by the ammunition used?

What exactly did this stockpile consist of? How many unlicensed weapons were confiscated, and from how many different locations?

I'm kind of curious about this myself – I've heard varying reports; one of which claimed the police had only found 3 rifles, while early media reports described huge caches of…

especially evidence of the stockpiling of weapons

What exactly did this stockpile consist of? How many unlicensed weapons were confiscated, and from how many different locations?

It's getting silly and, in the case of "stormtrooper" verges on the offensive. And I'm sure the old bloke in Ruatoki was treated somewhat insensitively by the police, but was it really "like what the Nazis did to the Jews"? No it bloody wasn't.

Aye. That's hyperbolic.

I'm inclining towards…

You see, there we run into problems. Because, for example, it would flag things like targeted health spending or the Maori seats in Parliament as racism.

Your examples are often referred to as 'racism' by those who oppose them and as 'positive discrimination' by those who support them. Both sides…

I believe racism is commonly defined as 'treating someone differently solely on the basis of race'.

You see, there we run into problems. Because, for example, it would flag things like targeted health spending or the Maori seats in Parliament as racism.

"Racism" is a word that, generally speaking, has…

Faceless men with machineguns raiding NZers houses at dawn: we HAVE stepped ove some sort of line, surely?

Has anyone ever asked why the AOS etc wear the balaclava? Will we all be feeling a little bit silly if we leap up and down frequently, about faceless ninjas only to…

This is scary. The detail of the "commando gear" that's most disturbing is the facial covering.

Mr Williams said the interviewees, mainly women, told stories of being ordered out of bed in the early hours of October 15 by police toting guns and wearing black commando gear.

"They were herded…

...classing people being awkward in their attempts to be culturally sensitive ... [and] the "commodification of indigeneity", which I assume means something like "people thinking stuff is hip because it comes…

Mr Williams said the interviewees, mainly women, told stories of being ordered out of bed in the early hours of October 15 by police toting guns and wearing black commando gear.

"They were herded into…

It's getting silly and, in the case of "stormtrooper" verges on the offensive. And I'm sure the old bloke in Ruatoki was treated somewhat insensitively by the police,…

given than there's actual damaging, specific racial discrimination that does exist in the world and it's nice to have a word for it that isn't so generalized as to be effectively meaningless.

Now I see the reference to Antinomy.

Ok. To say that someone is of a particular race is,…

challenging yes, inflammatory no

I just don't see anything about what Jackson and many others are saying is in anyway challenging. Jackson and Sykes are lawyers and have a penchant for cheap amateur theatrics which can beneficially to their clients and entertaining at times but it's not constructive politics.

I'm sure, Finn, that members of your family could tell you about prejudice and mistrust and forms of alienation expressed in intonation, bearing, gesture and careful attention to vocabulary.

'Racism' is not something that can be identified…

Quelle surprise.

well we're bound to disagree on his one but I think the PM has it right. The terrorism laws are inappropriate for what Iti was up to but the laws which should be used have a number of failings. There's no good reason why intercepts shouldn't be able…

Seriously folks, every time I hear this my mind boggles. Do we really need to go into the huge list of reasons why locking down this part of Wellington would be very difficult, expensive and futile? Let's try a few samplers:

I think if the police thought there was an…

Johnno a wager for conviction or that they found a zippo lighter?

__Prime Minister Helen Clark says allowing intercepted telephone conversations to be used as evidence in a wider range of crimes is one possibility to avoid the need for terrorism laws to be used in dealing with future cases such as the Urewera raids.

Helen Clark said the Government had…

Their failure to lock down Abel Smith St supports this explanation.

Seriously folks, every time I hear this my mind boggles. Do we really need to go into the huge list of reasons why locking down this part of Wellington would be very difficult, expensive and futile? Let's try a…

Johnno – we know there were no firearms found in Wellington.
The Police would have leaked it already if there were.
More fundamentally they raided non-violent activists & there never were firearms there

We'll have to wait for the court cases to see if you are right. Would you like a…

Somebody tell me how to do those fancy indent things so I at least don't LOOK like such a noob. Or tell me where the instructions are.

have a look to the left of the reply box.

Hey Finn was it you who was going to get back to us with details about when the police last locked down a township? I would still like to know that.

Kowhai, it was. I'll need to have a conversation to get you some background there, and the person I…

The various news reports about the Abel Smith St raid and the Police's own press release say they were looking for "firearms, ammunition and people". So it would seem that they did not know that there were no weapons in Wellington.

Either that, or they knew perfectly well that there…

Is anyone asking the obvious follow-up: Because it sure seems beyond credibility that Police haven't been (selectively) leaking like the proverbial sieve.

Craig, is the obvious follow up "who benefits most from this latest leak"?

The various news reports about the Abel Smith St raid and the Police's own press release say they were looking for "firearms, ammunition and people". So it would seem that they did not know that there where no weapons in Wellington.

The police did use the AOS to raid one…

You sound like a recent convert. I don't know who’re preaching to but you might find that a lot…

Police are putting TV3 under scrutiny over some of the information it has broadcast since last month's anti-terror raids.

A preliminary investigation has begun into whether the network has any documents relating to Operation Eight – the…

"Police Terror Raids" is poetic justice.

Thanks Shep. Honest partnership is what…

Finn you picked the weakest part of Moana Jackson’s argument to criticise out of the context of the rest of the discussion. This is exactly the way evidence gets misconstrued!

I posted the point where it became clear that unsupported assertions were being made at a faster rate than he…

More fully Jackson states:

“In a…

If they knew there were no weapons in Wellington, they wouldn't use the AOS there.

The various news reports about the Abel Smith St raid and the Police's own press release say they were looking for "firearms, ammunition and people". So it would seem that they did not know that…

In relation to evidence which is not admissible not being made public, this is not a “fallback position”. Inadmissible evidence is inadmissible because it does not meet the rules of evidence and therefore doesn’t COUNT as evidence.

I think you missed Tracy Watkin's point.

Her focus wasn't on the evidence…

"It simply does not have enough information to either trust that the police acted within the public interest against a very real terrorist threat,…

On the other hand, it's dead quiet before 6 AM or so. And I recall police locking down blocks in town during the day for reasons as trivial as accidents and bomb…

Was this racist?

Yes.

The Police Commissioner was correct in stating that people of "many ethnicities" were arrested. However the way they were arrested shows a marked difference in terms of race.

For example the Maori community of Ruatoki was the only community that was…

I'm sure in hindsight the police might regret not just using the plain Crimes Act, however that's hindsight.

The police have admitted that they couldn't use the Crimes Act, because no crimes had been committed (excluding the alleged firearms crimes). That includes conspiracy to murder, and conspiracy to commit an…

I presume it was a response to the showing of 'Out of the Blue' the night before.

Saw it on theatrical release, and it's no dis to anyone involved that I couldn't really face a second showing. However, the person who put together the horrible promos (I've seen trailers for…

We are now in the worst of all worlds. The solicitor-general, in ruling that the police evidence did not meet a high enough threshold to prove terrorism charges, has, in effect, ensured that some…

My son and I took our dog out to Aramoana Beach on Sunday morning. There was an installation near the entrance to the beach of driftwood and flowers. I presume it was a…

Today Mr. Harold Bored, deputy assistant conspiritor of threat assement guesswork issued the following statement.

"It is with grave concern that I feel I must issue this statement. I have been informed by the New Zealand Police B.S.T.S.U (better safe than sorry unit) that there may be…

I laughed out loud when Ron Mark snarked that Keith Locke had supported the rise of the Khmer Rouge and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. It was completely irrelevant and completely relevant all at the same time.

To take a really low blow, perhaps I can snark that when Keith…

I laughed out loud when Ron Mark snarked that Keith Locke had supported the rise of the Khmer Rouge and the Soviet invasion…

perhaps it's also worth thinking about the notion that we're the beneficiaries of centuries of social, political and cultural evolution where people's fates are supposedly no longer decided by Star Chambers, feudal lords or homicidal mobs.

pity these centuries of advance haven't solved the issue of institutional racism, or majoritarianism…

I suggest you go to the library, and find a copy of Dame Rebecca West's The Meaning of Treason. I think she put it quite beautifully when she wrote these words:

Since the traitor's offense is that he conspires against the liberty of his fellow countrymen to choose their…

I think it is a mistake to allow the possibility that terrorism legislation could be misused to override the reality that people who plan politically inspired violence need to be stopped.

Believe it or not, WH, I am right behind you there.

And the converse applies too. It's a mistake…

What did Sam Buchanan have to say about the side of police that Pakeha don't see? He has 'copped it' previously so to speak, did he talk at all about the raids on the house in Wellington?

He made the point that when he was scruffy punk rock youth with…

Is Trotter talking about the NZ Army?

"People who think it's OK to train young Maori men to be bodyguards for the Americans in Baghdad."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sundaystartimes/4269114a25945.html

and have a nap.

To think that a person has tagged himself as a terrorist by accurately relating that he is being pursued by the state under the Terrorism Suppression Act...

No, that's just how all the headlines about "terror raids" came about. Nobody tagged themselves anything, just as the police didn't tag people…

I don't get your point at all.

Pretty much what Stephen said.

To think that a person has tagged himself as a terrorist by accurately relating that he is being pursued by the state under the Terrorism Suppression Act...

I can't be the only person who finds people who repeatedly open responses to other people's seriously argued posts with "Ha ha" very obnoxious.

I presume this refers to me. I count two cases of opening with 'ha ha', only one of which was a response to someone's seriously argued…

As soon as the raids became news, the police had to talk about them. If they were asked with authority they conducted searches, would they have got away with saying "we can't say?"

This just…

I can't be the only person who finds people who repeatedly open responses to other people's seriously argued posts with "Ha ha" very obnoxious.

Perhaps so, but you've got to admit, the idea that "the first evidence of the use of the TSA" was someone publicising their being subject to…

The crawling around in the bush stuff could be done legally with paintball guns .

For the weapons training, those without previous convictions could have obtained gun…

the numerous police raids on and since October 15 appear to have been fishing trips by officers hoping to stumble over evidence of a plot that they had not managed to find in the previous year of intensive surveillance.

It seems possible…

Well actually I would side with the police there. It isn't illegal to hang out in the bush and do group exercises. Unless they had clear evidence for firearms charges or some other obvious offence, what could the…

"The problem appears to be a mixture of poor judgement, preconceived ideas and organisational vested interest."

I liked his backstory to the raids. Trouble is I don't know how dispassionate he is. Having seen John…

I'm out…

I don't know. Maybe by getting the warrant under the TSA in the first place?

I'm going to say this again, because it's not getting through clearly.

If the police believe these people are involved in terrorist type activities – ie, preparing/planning for a terrorist action – then why wouldn't…

I do think that it's particularly concerning when members of the agency tasked with upholding the law deliberately and flagrantly break it.

Yeah I agree with that. It'd be interesting to know if the leaking was done by some individual down the structure, or if it was a deliberate decision…

I think I'm going to freak out a bit

Ha ha, best understated quote ever.

It's my understanding however that the first evidence of the use of the TSA was when one of the people raided made a copy of the warrant available publicly. How is that the police's fault?

I don't know. Maybe by getting the warrant under the TSA in the…

I also agree that leaking goes both ways.

I do think…

It is the misuse of power of the state that creates "terrorism" (I hate that word) in the first place.

That's an interesting point Sara. I was trying to think of exceptions – terrorists totally unjustified by repression – but the only ones I could come up with off the…

I'm really happy to posit counter-factuals at people whose default assumption is that if the police accuse you, you're probably guilty.

Which I haven't said.

Also, I'd like to hear all the evidence in a criminal trial, not drip-fed into the media by leakers trying to vindicate themselves.

Well I…

We can't establish that, so we're going with trespass on morgue charges, but we'll mention all this inadmissable evidence of necrophilia that we.ve gathered, but won't show you, anyway.

Well no doubt the defence will be looking into the argument that their clients cannot get a fair trial now that…

... isn't the logical thing to take a neutral stance and say "I don't know who's in the wrong here?" (and follow that up with "I'd like to hear all the evidence so I can come to a fair conclusion"?)

I'm really happy to posit counter-factuals at people whose default…

Do we have a logo? A badge? What's our mission statement? Do we have an official name? CaSagfM Group is a bit long-winded... ;)

We have not been presented with any evidence anyone has been up to anything like terrorist activity. All we have had is sensational leaks of supposed,…

However, that's only a possibility. I refer you again to the presumption of innocence, a point you seem to have trouble with.

Kyle, conspiracy to murder is a criminal act, as is attempting such. Please stop constructing straw men.

Go back to the original post. They seemed to me to be arguing against arresting people until they had committed the actual act of murder. I found that strange, as it seemed logical…

Please unsubstantiate the claim that you've been engaged in terrorist activity, not to mention child abuse and any other icky smear I can come up with.

Well presumably if you had evidence of that, you'd take it to the police and they would, or wouldn't act on it. I could…

And we all complacently think that NZ is different and sound and sensible, but you know, the US constitution and all their traditions and institutions haven't been enough to…

My avant-garde art agents have spent 18 months gathering evidence that he has been organising secret necrophiliac training camps in the Southern Alps.

Unfortunately, the evidence we gathered was under the Necrophiliac Suppression Act, which requires evidence of actual tampering with dead…

And I believe there's an appropriate balance between doing that [using non-terrorism laws in NZ], and civil liberties. We've had conspiracy crimes for ages in NZ, I've never…

The SG said "almost" impossible to apply to domestic circumstances – So in fact he is saying it is possible, its just complicated and the standard is high – as it bloody well should…

but as some one who is centre-left and spent a bit of time confronting Police in demos

I've been arrested twice – once protesting at a national party conference, once after getting sick of being pushed around by the NZ police at the CHOGM protests in 1995

Is this the…

I think that's how all warrants work isn't it? You get a warrant under the arms act, because you believe someone is breaching that act. You get a warrant under the crimes act, to pursue someone under the crimes act.

You're completely missing my point, Kyle. I'm saying…

I suspect you might not be entirely right about that, Kyle. Take, for example, the group "Peaceful Tomorrows" which is:

Well that doesn't counteract my point webweaver. I'm not arguing for the Patriot Act, nor indeed am I in favour of NZ's anti-terrorism laws. The Patriot Act is a pile…

And I'll restate again, while none of the suggestions about terrorism have been substantiated, I'm not aware that they've been unsubstantiated yet.

Please unsubstantiate the claim that you've been engaged in terrorist activity, not to mention child abuse and any other icky smear I can come up with.

Meanwhile, the Labour party has presided over extensions of state powers of surveillance year on year, and the best the agencies entrusted with them…

If you're planning to murder, it's down to Clark or Key and you're going to flip a coin on the day, there probably isn't a conspiracy.

Well, that's the way to organise your terrorist cell then.

And, Andy, straw men mate. I think there was possibly one person who could've…

Umm, yes. I don't have a problem with conspiracy crimes, or attempted murder crimes etc.

And I suspect the familes of victims of terrorism would probably tend to agree.

And I say...

I suspect you might not be entirely right about that, Kyle. Take, for example, the group…

Because I privately scoff in derision at your apparent belief that the police are not basically an arrogant, conservative, bullying organisation with enough power to think they should have more and should exercise for the "betterment" of this society

I scoff at you, blindjackdog, and the hypocritical chardonnay liberalism your…

If on the other hand, I mutter vague threats about wanting to kill…

However, what it says is that you look at the argument, not the person making it.…

Kyle, do you want laws that catch criminals before they've committed their act?

Umm, yes. I don't have a problem with conspiracy crimes, or attempted murder crimes etc.

And I suspect the familes of victims of terrorism would probably tend to agree.

Unfortunately, it's not just artists who…

Nicky Hager, Jane Kelsey, Moana Jackson and David Small

I doubt you will agree with me Stephen, but as some one who is centre-left and spent a bit of time confronting Police in demos etc perhaps you might consider my views well meaning, these people are mad. I find it…