Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: Why a renter died from turning on a light, and what we could do

Kumara Republic

Sat, 12 Jul 2014 13:45:23 +1200

I’m sure many landlords would despise any such idea and fight tooth and nail against it, claim things like a giant waste of money and warn that nobody would provide rental accommodation if they were being forced to obey the law, yadiyadiya.

When market segments like housing operate like cartels,…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 12 Jul 2014 09:07:56 +1200

Every gas appliance I have ever bought has it clearly stated that qualified gasfitters must instal and maintain the appliance. Every salesperson has made it clear that a gas-fitter is essential.

However, they also tend to state, from memory, that failure to follow these warnings may result in serious injury…

Chris Waugh

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 18:55:21 +1200

Law enforcement is normally only applied after something goes wrong.

Yeah, I dunno about that. They do education campaigns to try and persuade people to not drive drunk and/or slow down... Ideally the various government agencies should start with education/information campaigns, then administration designed to actually make it easy for…

Chris Waugh

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 18:50:23 +1200

qualified gasfitters must instal and maintain the appliance.

I did once hide behind a concrete wall as two very unqualified people used a cigarette lighter to figure out if a gas bottle was leaking.... Then there was the time two downstairs neighbours tried to figure out whether their gas bottle…

Jeanette King

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 16:55:18 +1200

"Why a renter died ..."

My inner pedant yells "tenant"...

at least you didn't say she passed away ....

Hebe

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 16:40:26 +1200

In this specific case, it was entirely reasonable for the court to have reached the conclusion that he ought to have known, because the guy’s a drain-layer. Working with plumbers/gas-fitters is a routine part of his job.

Every gas appliance I have ever bought has it clearly stated that qualified…

izogi

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 15:59:36 +1200

That’s what we have law enforcement agencies for.

Law enforcement is normally only applied after something goes wrong. Sure you could report a dodgy landlord, but in renting situations where your livelihood’s on the line, and when your next rental might strongly depend on good references from your current landlord,…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 15:44:27 +1200

Did he know he needed a qualified plumber/gas fitter? Maybe, maybe not, but the courts thought that he ought to have known and have convicted him.

In this specific case, it was entirely reasonable for the court to have reached the conclusion that he ought to have known, because the…

ChrisB

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 14:50:26 +1200

As Mark has alluded, this seems more like a general "she'll be right" problem rather than a landlord problem. It wouldn't have been any less tragic if it was a home owner who did this to their own family property.

If you look at Energy Safety's statement, they…

Mark Graham

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 14:34:08 +1200

There are greater issues around building and building maintenance here than just those of being a landlord. The govt has made significant changes to the Building Act which moves responsibilities away from councils and to homeowners and builders. Builders should know these but there has been limited education campaigns to…

Moz

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 14:30:44 +1200

Did he know he needed a qualified plumber/gas fitter? Maybe, maybe not, but the courts thought that he ought to have known and have convicted him.

Which is what I think they needed to do. I've seen enough poor repairs and just plain illegal stuff that I've got no real…

Moz

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 14:18:21 +1200

The IRD has guidelines which are easily accessible by googling something like "income from boarders

You mean the link I put in that message? Yes, and a key requirement of "boarders" seems to be that I'm providing food (and furniture?), which I'm not. So those rules don't apply as far…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 13:52:13 +1200

In theory rent paid by not-on-the-lease tenants to the leaseholder is taxable income, but the rent paid by the leaseholder is not a deductable cost.

It's not income, it's a contribution to a shared cost. Do you have to account for income and expenses if one person buys a meal…

Allan MacLachlan

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 13:21:57 +1200

And those enforcement agencies didn't help with identifying his lack of compliance either. He plumbed in his own gas appliance when he didn't have the qualifications to do so. Did he know he needed a qualified plumber/gas fitter? Maybe, maybe not, but the courts thought that he ought to have…

Chris Waugh

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 13:05:03 +1200

So, he didn’t meet the current standards, why would he then go further under a new regime? While you can have a whole lot of rules, regulations and standards for landlords to comply with, that doesn’t mean they will comply with them.

That's what we have law enforcement agencies for.

Allan MacLachlan

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 12:57:04 +1200

And by “rental property” I mean “the home you live in”, because the complex cases are the share houses.
It doesn't have to be as complicated as you describe: The IRD has guidelines which are easily accessible by googling something like "income from boarders" and you get to this site:…

Allan MacLachlan

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 12:29:11 +1200

One problem with the tax situation is that for many people the tax department is saying on the one hand "you have an income-producing asset, pay tax" but on the other "your asset does not qualify as an investment so no costs are deductable"

Where do you get the idea…

Moz

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 12:12:44 +1200

Of course, there will be much wailing and bitching from those who will insist naughty landlords will avoid registration, that the "good guys" will be penalised,

The rental bond lodgement law would be a good guide to that, I think. The penalty for not lodging is high enough that I…

Moz

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 12:05:02 +1200

could IRD’s question about rents received potentially be used to identify many landlords?

Oh, absolutely. And by rights it should. I'm firmly on the side of making landlords operate responsibly for both reasons, as it happens. I've been renting and in share houses for 25-odd years now and I'm a…

Moz

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 11:42:04 +1200

I’ll take your word for it that this isn’t possible

I've asked an accountant at a social event and their (unofficial) advice was not to discuss it with the tax department. In Australia if you own the house then broadly the costs are deductable and the [[http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/different-income-taxed/rental-income/boarders/incometax-boarders-flyer.html|NZ situation seems…

izogi

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 11:30:32 +1200

In theory rent paid by not-on-the-lease tenants to the leaseholder is taxable income, but the rent paid by the leaseholder is not a deductable cost.

Interesting and I’d never thought of it like that. If someone went to the effort of documenting a share situation for tax purposes, I’d have…

TracyMac

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 11:30:03 +1200

I don't see the equivalence here. If you're a sole leaseholder in a shared house, you're not "receiving rents" for the asset you own. You're merely the channel for money that actually does end up in rents to the property owner.

If anyone who actually is a property owner uses…

Moz

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 11:02:33 +1200

The is most blatant in the…

izogi

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 10:17:09 +1200

As a result there’s no way of knowing which people are landlords.

This avenue might be trumped by privacy or information sharing issues, but doesn’t IRD ask a very specific question on the standard IR3 – q22 I think, unless it’s changed – about whether you received rents? That would…

George Darroch

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:34:43 +1200

When we increase the responsibilities of landlords this will become even more important. For example, we will require them to insulate their houses, and install and maintain long-life fire alarms. Houses lacking these also kill and injure people.

We've realised the connection between housing and people's health and wellbeing, and…

Public Address

Fri, 11 Jul 2014 09:34:43 +1200

Discussion from blog post.