I hear ya Kyle, but I wouldn't want Mugabe to be able to silence NZs media. Just that it's not able to be reported here if suppressed is all we can really do.

Well I don't think you'd make it a blanket rule. But if you made it like extradition…

I wouldn't subject anyone to that kind of trauma; much as I'd admire a woman with the courage to take it on..

ITA agree, and let's remember we're talking about The Sun here. Russell is being very generous indeed when he says they would "try and shame" her; if they…

I'm kind of glad you mentioned Tea Ropati's case Sofie. I find it upsetting seeing him and his wife on the front of the women's mags proclaiming his innocence, it must be so so much worse for his…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4607982a10.html

Jimmy, no drinking mate; not a drop. Now, could you just go over there and put on your steiny tracksuit and join the boys for the Lion Nathan-sponsored corporate event to launch Steinlager-classic?

But to be fair... The ABs management seemed to be taking all the…

Third incident here. No police involvement in this one.

And now it is three incidents apparently. He's been charged in relation to the incident that Lucky Mulipola just dealt with. 3 in 3 months, there must be a prize for that. Hopefully some of the senior All Blacks give him…

I'm pretty sure someone at Lion Nathan was on the phone after the six o'clock news, suggesting that Cowan shouldn't be photographed with a Steinlager logo across his chest for a while.

Hah! I can imagine the phone calls that rapidly followed any coverage! I wonder how long before a…

I don't think he was set up, his photo ended up in the paper because they print it once a week anyway.…

Third incident here. No police involvement in this one.

James: Thanks for that, and I stand corrected. And fair points well expressed at 7.01 Paul. I know I can come across as a bit (well, a lot) of a Puritan inquisitor where alcohol-related offending or plain assholery is concerned. But…

I think it's two in as many months.

Was there the trespass notice incident (as opposed to police) as mentioned in D-Scream?

And I'm not wanting to discount 'substance abuse', but I sometimes wonder about whether it's drink exacerbating anger/the belief that fisticuffs is an appropriate solution. Say like Hayden…

I don't think three D&D charges in as may weeks is really something any prudent employer would class as a trivial "mis-deed".

I think it's two in as many months.

Re the ABs "responsibility"; they have a residual responsibility, almost pastoral care, given the fame and attention granted along with the place on the bench. Perhaps I'm overstating it, but a 20-something year old with shite loads of dosh and…

IMO, sacking him altogether wouldn't be appropriate both because of the nature of his mis-deeds but also because it would absolve the ABs from their responsibilities to him to get his sh*t together.

Err... I don't think three D&D charges in as may weeks is really something any prudent employer would…

Most of my dealings with the cops have been in the context of civil disobedience of varying degrees (on…

She said that Police themselves have said they think 60-80% of rape complaints are false

If she's got that correct that's very concerning. Do you remember if she said where it came from?

She said that Police themselves have said they think 60-80% of rape complaints are false, and if they're coming from that mindset then it's hard already for women to be taken seriously.

Urgh, that is the most depressing thing I've read in ages. And it's been a depressing week.

I'd…

One of the things that bugs me about media reporting around rape is the much much higher reporting of false allegations, as opposed to coverage of genuine ones.

Because it's an exceptional event. I could complain about child-molesting stories not noting that most people aren't child molesters, too, but it's…

And I'd also point out that just because you might set out to get a shot of your boobs with a famous person, for a payout, does not mean you can't be raped.

Agreed.

I only meant to note that Shand's advice was probably as much about about the risk…

It's is true, however, that in some countries, England particularly, the media have actively encouraged, if not commissioned, people to try to capture celebs in compromising positions: Shane Warne being one of the most recent and high-profile ...

by a Kiwi lass no less:

WARNE'S MAIDEN
She's the Kiwi 'sexport' who…

I had the same conversation over coffee at work yesterday. It's a pretty common thing.

Way too common. It really is unacceptable that the way the media has reported this conflates the two women in most people's minds. I would say that it is just lazy reporting but I think…

Last night this topic came up at pre-pub-quiz dinner. One person was surprised to learn that the alleged rape victim and "Angel" were two different people. He thought it was a bit strange that this woman would claim rape and sell her sex story to the tabs.

I had the…

Trapperazi warnings? How about telling international rugby players that we take rape seriously in this country, and that they are not above the law?

The latter may be true, but Trapperazzi isn't as ridiculous as you (and some others) obviously think. The UK News of the World are notorious for…

. I got so mad when One News referred to it as a "sex romp" last night.

And this would be why I've just given up on the TV news. It's just a glossy colour version of what I heard on National Radio at 7am, only with less content and…

I've thought about whether I should reply to your comments as there's not really anything I disagree with – these are demeaning terms, I agree, and the overall portrayal of this situation has reflected a not-so-latent sexism.

It's is true, however, that in some countries, England particularly,…

Even worse on those forums is the use of the term, 'roasting' and 'spit…

I've just been back through my browsers history and couldnt find them... I'd have guessed I saw them at the News Of The World's story that was reputedly a paid interview... but they just…

Sure guys are warned, Tana didn't do himself any favours in Christchurch but don't be an abusive drunk & you'll be fine.

several years back, wasn't there some attempt to whip up a scandal about some hurricanes (?) or all blacks (the group allegedly included Tana anyway) & the mistreatment of a…

"New Zealand team boss Darren Shand revealed All Blacks players were warned to avoid what is known here as the Traperazzi before stories of the England scandal broke.

Tales are rife of…

According to different unreliable sources.....

1) a woman, who has spoken to police, may have been raped in an incident involving up to four players.

2) a different woman had consenting sex with a player that may or may not have been one of…

YEah, no wonder I'm confused.

If 'Angel' was the presumed victim I'm sure the Police would have dropped this case the minute she came out with her Tabloid Tale.

There may well be other possibilities…

They made a point of using quote marks each time they said it.

I suspect they were trying to imply something...

On naming & shaming, by way of occupation.
Anyone else notice the victim stated as a lapdancer & Sophie Lewis aka Angel Barbie, but named as Angel by the Sun is a model.

I wonder how…

One of the named four, is also the one that 'Angel' has named and said could not be involved....

I see many possibilities...

1) Newspaper has made a mistake, or is reporting false…

Just to be devils advocate here,Lucy, What would the Sun call her. You don't know her name ,do you?And I'm sorry but that is all it is so far, a Sex allegation.

You can be damn sure that if she was an accountant or a factory worker that wouldn't be…

Where they offer you a feature
On stockings and suspenders
Next to a call for stiffer penalties for sex offenders

http://www.billybragg.co.uk/releases/singles/between_wars/between4.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1331738.ece

And the Sun keeps it classy as always by describing them as being at the centre of "sex allegations", and consistently referring to the girl by her profession. Charming.

Yeah I noticed that too. From the Sun:

The players involved feel under pressure and angry. They are single guys who…

The names of the four players are now public though the matter remains confused.

And the Sun keeps it classy as always by describing them as being at the centre of "sex allegations", and consistently referring to the girl by her profession. Charming.

The downside to that 'tude is you may just find more people saying 'OK then..." than you'd like.

Exactly what I've done. David posts some stuff that I find interesting however. He's clearly well informed and comes from a different perspective which makes some of blog interesting. What's frustrating however,…

Craig, I think David's 'management model' is dependent upon throwing out the odd thread that's designed to create a swam of beligerants spewing abuse.

Paul: I think those people would go off if Farrar posted something as inoccuous as 'Flowers pretty, sun warm, me happy." Otherwise, I'm sure he and…

sorry can't recall where I heard this over the weekend but (poss TV3) it mentioned that the guys in question were single without wives or girlfriends and that disquiet amongst the remaining players was surfacing as they wanted their names cleared for the benefit of family etc.

The English Rugby…

Is he responsible for this level of intolerance; no. Should he enable it;…

I think he all too often sets up threads that lead to incredibly predictable commentary and I don't think he can avoid some responsibility for that.

Paul: I've said myself that in Farrar's position, I'd just set comments to full moderation and tell about a dozen or so individuals
(including…

'I wish these allegations had bee brought before the court, because as things stand there's still a cloud hanging over some of our lads and that's not fair'.

I will be... interested... to see if any of the English players break ranks and name names. There are five players, after…

Sue said:

Can i reccomend nobody read kiwiblog on this, i did after what paul said, and i pretty much threw up after reading the comments.

I should have said that myself, sorry. And sorry too, to Simon G.

Finally, Craig:

Paul: Can…

The way the players are treated?

Yup — because, Lucy, I just don't believe that kind of behaviour just comes out of the ether. Look at it this way, I go to work and am expected to meet various standards of professional conduct, not least among them I don't harass,…

"If the mildest allegations are true, the actions reveal something seriously amiss in the squad, its attitude, its hierarchy and the way the players are treated,"

And that was Stephen Jones

Make of this what you will
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:England_rugby_training_at_bath_arp.jpg

Football hooligans, anyone?

It's always tough on the hooligans when your team isn't in the tournament

They really do think we're angry little colonials, don't they?

Well, RB, it would be nice if some folks didn't try so damn hard to live down to it all. Remember when the AB's being knocked out of the World Cup lead to a holocaust of national mourning and domestic violence?…

Yeah, and unfortunately the major thing likely to dissuade her from making a complaint, assuming there's one to be made, is that the English press will doubtless orchestrate a smear campaign in favour of "our poor boys".

Probably not unlike the one that's starting to emerge already – although it's…

An English rugby official says a rape allegation against four players was "designed to destabilise" the tour – and suggests Kiwis' bitterness at their early exit from the Rugby World Cup might also be a relevant factor.

I saw this article this morning too and thought "stay classy England". Even…

I've always got the option of turning my attention elsewhere for the next four to five months.

we all know that isn't true.

you're drawn here craig, drraaaawwwwnnn heeree.

heh.

although... pot. kettle. etc.

meh.

Just like I did. And I don't believe she deserves the contempt being heaped upon her.

Yeah, and unfortunately the major thing likely to dissuade her from making a complaint, assuming there's one to be made, is that the English press will doubtless orchestrate a smear campaign in favour of…

An English rugby official says a rape allegation against four players was "designed to destabilise" the tour – and suggests Kiwis' bitterness at their early exit from the Rugby World Cup might also be a relevant factor.

The original article is here. The official quoted seems to…

What I don't see is racism, bigotry, misogyny etc. But I see that almost every time I visit Kiwiblog (in the comments threads), and I think that's far worse than getting nasty about John Key, or whatever.

Well, Simon, I don't actually think being in public life means you're asking…

What I don't see is racism, bigotry, misogyny etc. But I see that almost every time I visit Kiwiblog (in the comments threads), and I think that's far worse than…

Craig, you're fond of appearing bipartisan, but balance is not a substitute for truth.

Simon g:

You've presumed to tell me the contents of my own mind.

You've also, however nicely coded, called me a partisan hack, a liar and an apologist for people I hold in nothing but contempt.…

and Julie…

There is no "loony left" equivalent of Kiwiblog, there is no comfortable home for racism, misogyny, and general bigotry, and unless Tom has been cloned a hundred times over, and has been pouring filth on every…

Craig, there is no comparison whatsoever between commenters who habitually dwell on Kiwiblog and those on PA, and you damn well know it.

Simon G: I wouldn't waste my piss on Tom Semmens if his head was on fire. While he tones it way down on PA, he's certainly not…

I'm suspecting perhaps we should draw a line between commentators and friends?
ok those are two very different things

they're going to be getting the shame-making Big Gay Uncle Craig lecture about respecting themselves, respecting others and not letting anyone pressure them into doing a damn thing to the contrary.

Mutatis mutandis, sounds like what I will be doing with my daughters, Craig.

Farrar himself might not be a misogynist, but his mates are.

Paul: Can you please leave me out of that pathology? I sure wouldn't want to see Russell (who I also consider a friend and a honourable and decent man) judged by certain parties hereabouts.

If you ever needed convincing of the tragedy that is kiwiblog, the thread on this issue is conclusive proof; imagine the most sexist crap you've ever heard and you pretty much have it. Farrar himself might not be a misogynist, but his mates are.

God, I just read it. Really…

thank god for here.

Case in point, everyone! Consenting to a quiet drink does not entail…

What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you.

Wow, what a tosser making excuses for his frankly average rugby team.

Assuming that a sexual…

In short: What Lucy, Deborah, Anjum, Sue, Danielle, and a number of other people already said, about consent, about women, about men, about sex, about rape.

What concerns me most about this current situation is the…

That was kind of my point; that men are responsible for their own actions, and the women-as-gatekeepers thing is a damaging myth because it tells a story where all men want sex all the time and so can't be held really responsible where sex is involved.

Agreed Lucy – it…

But l do think men are responsible for their own actions.

That was kind of my point; that men are responsible for their own actions, and the women-as-gatekeepers thing is a damaging myth because it tells a story where all men want sex all the time and so can't be…

I’d say he’s just got a good idea of what your average Daily Telegraph reader would lap up.

Stevens is the prop who got completely worked over by Tialata of all people; particularly in Auckland.

Heh heh, thanks. I actually knew who he was.

What I meant was: is he a fevered genius or a complete arsehole? :)

The problem isn't the argument that women need to take more care in where they get drunk and who they do it with ....................

Lucy I do agree with most of what you said in this post so withdraw the comment on your responsibility. But l do think men are…

Stevens is the prop who got completely worked over by Tialata of all people; particularly in Auckland.

What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you. (italics added)

There is a siege mentality out here and that's what makes it so difficult…

I think he should've gone with "no comment". We're all speculating on a serious allegation, based on next to no information. By comparison, who cares what the idiots at the Sun or the Daily Mail think.

Mark: The Sun and The Daily Mail don't "think". They also seem to have…

There isn't too much I can say about the investigation by the police. As a squad we have taken a decision that we will not discuss the details in public and I have to abide by that.

To me, this means that entire squad has a question mark over its…

What I can say is that when you come to play rugby in New Zealand you are not just playing the All Blacks, you are taking on the whole nation. Everyone is against you. (italics added)

So the girls were in on the whole thing? Brilliant deduction!

Only a fevered…

The South Africans used the tactic of throwing attractive women at the All Blacks frequently on the 1970 tour there.

Allegedly.

(and that might even have included "no comment")

I think he should've gone with "no comment". We're all speculating on a serious allegation, based on next to no information. By comparison, who cares what the idiots at the Sun or the Daily Mail think.

Writing in the UK Telegraph, Matt Stevens (England prop) plays the victim:

There isn't too much I can say about the investigation by the police. As a…

I took Graham Henries reported comments not as support for the English behaviour, or even solidarity for accused "brothers"... but merely not being wanted to be seen as taking shots at them.....

Quite. There will have been a bunch of English journalists walking around with chips on their shoulders. If…

(Note: during sex any vomit is too much)

Not just sex... pretty much any endeavor actually.... except pelicans and helicopters.

And if she has stated that to the Police, shouldn’t that be enough to press a charge?

A statement to the police is not a requirement to arrest and charge someone, though obviously it normally happens and helps the police. Domestic violence in particular for couple of decades now it's…

And rightly so too :)

"Misdemeanor". Classy way to talk about rape.

Obviously what was meant was NOT the corrupted legal definition (of an offence of limited seriousness) but the "true" one (plainly and simply, a misdeed).

it's not even going to be risk-taking for good sex.

Amen. My first drunk sex experience ended up with way too much vomit, but that's a story for another time. (Note: during sex any vomit is too much)

Although the girl who sold her story said she had the best…

I don't know, this one where drunk sex with strangers is good clean fun and god knows how many unplanned pregnancies, STD infections, and rapes occur because of it is pretty horrific for me. And generally speaking, it's not even going to be risk-taking for good sex.

God yes. The…

when did it happen because the only coach I heard speak on the matter was Steve Hanson

Friday – NZ Herald; links (and my earlier comment/question) here

A reasonable compromise might be:

If the allegations were true then the rugby players should be censored.

What, not prosecuted?

In the absence of proof we are better to let matters take their course and wait until a misdemeanor is proved.

"Misdemeanor". Classy way to talk about rape.

In fact, I questioned what the hell Graham Henry was thinking when it appeared that he was doing this.

I forgot to ask about this, when did it happen because the only coach I heard speak on the matter was Steve Hanson. quite early on he said (to the effect…

And if she has stated that to the Police, shouldn’t that be enough to press a charge?

BTW, this brave new world of no…

Can we accept that women quite properly leap to the aid of their sisters and men to defend their brothers.

Nope.

In fact, I questioned what the hell Graham Henry was thinking when it appeared that he was doing this.

You ain't my brother when you're acting like an ass.

And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.

The career of Melanie Griffith (Film debut — Body Double, exhibit A for…

featuring a kickass performance from a very hot leads Melanie Griffith and David Andrews

Whoops, sub-editing FAIL. I was originally just exhorting the hawtness of David Andrews, when I realised that Melanie Griffith fair sizzles as well. Oh well.

As a heterosexual male I agree with Craig.

Are you seriously not seeing the difference here between me claiming to take responsibility for your personal sexuality and my statement about the way society in general seems to view women and sex?

And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.

I think it's relevant because (a) it's a fantastic, fun movie featuring a…

yes it is – I think that if you don't you leave yourself open to misunderstandings and you may commit rape without realising it – you need assent from your partner (as does he/she from you).

I don't entirely agree with this.

I'd like to think that consent is more…

I don't believe that this is any kind of exoneration but is it something to consider? Is it accidental rape?

I think mutual drunkenness is a really, really tricky one. The trick, really, is to be aware of the situation before you go into it. Like Paul suggests: get full…

Can we accept that women quite properly leap to the aid of their sisters and men to defend their brothers.

Nope, in another high profile rape case in the States (the details of which escape me now), women tended to believe the accused (men), while men tended to believe the…

While I agree that this would clear up a hell of a lot of grey area, the reality of it seems like some kinda futuristic Sci-Fi scenario.

"My dear, my I gently fondle your testicles?"
"The left one only, please. I don't feel I know you well enough for both."

Yes you need to talk – and at a difficult time when you're both trying to be too cool/not too crass, and are…

some kinda futuristic Sci-Fi scenario

And it is actually the opening scene of Cherry 2000. The story of which involves a man discovering that a real woman is better than a robot. I'm not sure if that's relevant to this or not.

Everyone chiming in with an opinion based on half baked 'knowledge'.

Thank you Nick for stating the obvious. It was about time someone did

Lucy, you are not responsible for "policing" my sexuality.

As a heterosexual male I agree with Craig.

A reasonable compromise might be:

If the allegations were…

yes it is – I think that if you don't you leave yourself open to misunderstandings and you may commit rape without realising it – you need assent from your partner (as does he/she from you).

While I agree that this would clear up a hell of a lot…

It would just be nice if everyone took a little more responsibility for their own alcohol/drug consumption and sexuality.

Are you asking 18 year olds to that or us? Because if you want youth to do it, I think you've got a heck of a task.

(I just realised I…

And that's me as a 33-year-old woman. I wouldn't even want to imagine what the situation would be like if I was 22 years old and pretty.

You plenty pretty for me, and I'm going to stop right there before things become impossibly creepy. :)

Michael Laws even wondered aloud…

But I agree there's an issue what if you're both too drunk to give consent – are you both guilty of rape?

I wanted to add another angle: if the hoi polloi are so keen to blame this woman (18?) because she should have known better then ...

Should we also tell our daughters to STFU when they come home from…

I had a read through and these comments were what struck me:

The problem is that the first response to this sort of…

Cos it seems like it would be really difficult…

Just as an FYI, Lucy, you are not responsible for "policing" my sexuality.

Please believe me when I say I never thought I was. :P

I guess I'd better let the other people involved know about this.

No need, I've phoned the police on your behalf.

Deborah:

Not saying "No" does not equal consent.

Obviously, but then Paul:

not saying "yes" means no – that means you have to ask and get a reply – if you can't ask the answer is probably no.

Finally I'd add if the other person can't make that determination…

There's a critical mass dimension to this too; one or two arseholes might not be enough to make a group go feral, four or five does but.

that's pretty much it. i used to work dispatching taxis, and hen's nights were *feared* by most drivers.

but again, not excusing the…

It's part of the whole thing whereby women are seen as the gatekeepers of everyone's sexuality

That's a good analysis Lucy.

Which basically puts women in the category of "there for sex". And that kind of atmosphere doesn't lend itself well to thinking about women, especially women you're having a…

There's a critical mass dimension to this too; one or two arseholes might not be enough to make a group go feral, four or five does but.

take my word for it, this isn't even exclusively a sports thing.

i've know gangs of public servants who behave the same way...

Hmmmm, not all blokes, nor blokes in groups or teams, are sex offenders. I play sport and have had nights out with my team when reasonable quantities…

In most cases we say that the person drinking too much isn't absolved of responbsibility for their actions – in fact, it may even be considered to aggravate them (driving, for example).

And being drunk isn't an excuse for raping someone, exactly!

If you were trying to make the other…

there's also huge pressure to be a Team and All Guys Together, you know, bros before hos. Which basically puts women in the category of "there for sex".

take my word for it, this isn't even exclusively a sports thing.

i've know gangs of public servants who behave the same…

rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

Meh. I think it's men in team situations full stop. There's lots of unsavoury stories about all sorts of male sports teams.

This is sadly all too…

I think it's men in team situations full stop

actually if we're talking about dodgy behaviour it's people in group-think mode full stop.

group-think encourages people to do all kinds of stupid and/or outright vicious things

rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

One suspects that this has something to do with the simultaneous homoeroticism of a bunch of men in shorts groping each other combined with the extreme homophobia…

but there are all these noises about the guys being guilty of rape.
but no formal charges from a complainant
however the police are investigating, is this a normal thing for police to investigate something without charges being laid?
or do the police think they have enough information that they…

But as Deborah said: not saying "yes" means no – that means you have to ask and get a reply – if you can't ask the answer is probably no

Finally I'd add if the other person can't make that determination (even if they say…

rugby players, or 'thugby" as they call it in melbourne, seem to actually fulfill the negative stereotypes much more than other men though.

Meh. I think it's men in team situations full stop. There's lots of unsavoury stories about all sorts of male sports teams.

thank you for such eloquent posts

The Duke lacrosse team also threw up some interesting dynamics. University groups and academics at the school assumed the team were guilty and vilified them.

Not just at the university. It became a bit of a cause for all sorts of groups who appeared to regard a bunch of upper…

I have no idea about how law works, hopefully someone legal can step in

but there are all these noises about the guys being guilty of rape.
but no formal charges from a complainant
however the police are investigating,…

There are people into consensual polyamory and all that sort of thing. How is it different from any other unconventional sexual behaviour? Isn't it discrimination to suggest that it's intrinsically wrong?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with consensual group sex – whatever floats your boat, etcetera – but I think it's…

Not saying "No" does not equal consent.

Consenting to lap-dance does not entail consenting to sex.

Consenting to having sex with one man does not entail consenting to have sex with other men.

Consenting to having sex with one man at one time…

What is it with men who want to watch each other having sex with a young woman? Do they ask her if that's okay? What exactly is that about?

There are people into consensual polyamory and all that sort of thing. How is it different from any other unconventional sexual…

I'd be angry if the All Blacks were to act like this on tour. They'd be representing their country, and I wouldn't expect them to celebrate a defeat with binge drinking and dubious sexual behaviour.

Dan Carter and Ali Williams were two of the All Blacks also drinking at the…

More athletic looking men are more attractive to women, but have more testosterone which can make them more aggressive.

I am catching a noisome whiff of evolutionary psychology...