So do we have an inferiority complex or a superiority complex?

Not everybody. But there are more than a few with an insecure need to declare that we are "the -st in the world" at some particular attribute.

It's a convenient mythology. See the way NZ is advertised in Australia.

BUT thinking we know everything and the rest of the world is inferior or owes us a living and not being curious about other cultures is really boring and bigoted, imho.

So do we have an inferiority complex or a superiority complex? (It's not that I disagree with your main…

I've often wondered: are the people of other countries filled with such endless angst about their own provincialism and insularity? Or do they just not give a toss?

i live in Tokyo. Japan is quite insular in many ways. not much immigration or emmigration. language that is only spoken here.…

1. up to the end of the second world war, the vast majority of immigrants to nz were from britain and ireland. there were very tiny minorities from places such as central europe, nordic countries, the balkans and southern china.

And Australia. Australian immigration in the 19th century and early…

We're not the only ones afflicted with a great desire for recognition.

And on the other end of the scale, there are nations that are fearful of losing their dominance.

Danielle, I reckon think of our nation as a teenager. In a world mainly full of grown-ups.

All nations have insecurities, at least all nations that I've seen. Most are recently defined, in transition, and at least in some way incoherent. We're not the only ones afflicted with a great…

Me too. I've certainly detected something of that insecurity in Singapore, mostly around the issue of whether the world perceives them as a real country, rather than a glorified airport.

An insecurity likely born out of the post-independence race riots, and addressed by imposing a form of soft-totalitarianism and conscripting…

are the people of other countries filled with such endless angst about their own provincialism and insularity?

Danielle, I reckon think of our nation as a teenager. In a world mainly full of grown-ups.

I've often wondered: are the people of other countries filled with such endless angst about their own provincialism and insularity? Or do they just not give a toss?

Me too. I've certainly detected something of that insecurity in Singapore, mostly around the issue of whether the world perceives them as…

I think your comment proves mine. Kiwis didn't start to travel until very recently. We float in the middle of nowhere with no point of comparison upon which to grow. We are a reflection of oursevles.

I think that you're partly right, but that it's slightly more complicated than that.…

The only difference is that the immigrants don't assimilate like mofos.

Erm. Don't they? It's always taken a generation for that kind of 'assimilation' to occur. I think we're suffering from presentism to assert that sort of thing about current immigrants. There is nothing new under the sun, blah blah.

I don't think we should repeat the mistakes of the Anglo-Canadians and the English and allow excessive immigration to wrest control of our destiny from ourselves.

See, that's really daft. Whatever few Anglo-Canadians feel this way are now forced to hide under their beds and wait for death. The horse…

(wealthy? Really?)

Do you know what the median income is in this country? By the sound of it, no, you don't.

which I think is where you're angling

I'll remember that the next time I cut a check to the Labour Party or pay my sub.

I think you're quite…

Steve, there are plenty of kiwis around with the attitudes you encountered and found distasteful. It's commonplace in these parts. I truly hope you make your own place here and come to call it home.

And Canada, for all its officially recognised multiculturalism, is still getting to grips with Anglo-French…

I certainly did not intend my words to imply a generalised judgment of all UK migrants. That's why I specified it was about UK migrants i had met. Perhaps some more information is required.

I live in a very conservative…

Few working class members travelled.

Actually a couple of generations of young men got to travel quite extensively, not necessarily voluntarily, and meet all sorts of nice, and not so nice, people in some very exotic locations.

Not all of them came back to share the experience.

One of the things I liked most about the years I lived in London was the diversity of faces and voices (I don't think that's unconnected to Britain's continued cultural vitality). It was actually a relief to return to New Zealand and find our cultural homgenity breaking up.

Parts of…

I like being able to claim 6th generation illegal immigrant status in NZ. The founding ancestor was a shipjumper.

You seem to have a well-organised family tree. The last of my foreign-born male ancestors jumped ship in 1869, aged 13. More desperation than destiny.

And only the retirement of at-least-4th-generation NZers whose ancestors were drawn to these shores by a genuine sense of destiny.

I like being able to claim 6th generation illegal immigrant status in NZ. The founding ancestor was a shipjumper.

Only if they support people's retirement. We could compost them or something.

And only the retirement of at-least-4th-generation NZers whose ancestors were drawn to these shores by a genuine sense of destiny. Anyone in your family tree who arrived on an assisted passage, merely to "fuel economic growth", like those…

Surely "dirty smelly hippies" are part of diversity, too?

Only if they support people's retirement. We could compost them or something.

(see, also "dirty smelly hippies").

Hey man, that's like totally unfair you know. Save the whale, don't use water, man.
Where's my lentil stew.

Done! Next?

Large parts of Nelson I believe (see, also "dirty smelly hippies").

I can't think of any British migrants I've met who don't scoff at "how we give it all away to the Maoris" and no longer feel at home in the UK.

And you've not met me and my family (and about a dozen of the immigrant people I work with...)…

One alternative would be to cede Tauranga

Done! Next?

our precious social security system, something my parents and grandparents built with the sweat of their brows, would be unlikely to survive the strains of an encounter with mass migration

Complete and utter crap. New migrants (because they are generally younger and better skilled than average) lower the mean age…

I can't think of any British migrants I've met who don't scoff at "how we give it all away to the Maoris" and no longer feel at home in the UK.

You obviously haven't met me.

Also, I can't parse your double (triple?) negative. Do you mean that *all* the…

The only thing that exempts Tom S from deserving a therapeutic digital tarring & feathering is the crack-brained stupidity of his racist posts.

I was erring earlier on the side of assuming Tom was not expressing his position clearly, given that it seemed a bit off tone from his other discussions…

I had a lift from an Auckland taxi driver who was one of the Tampa people... true to good old NZ recognition of overseas qualifications a high level financial/economic analyst in Afghanistan gets to drive a cab in Auckland

I guess that's better than being driven to self-mutilation in one…

This is the country that took in the Tampa refugees when Howard was attempting to milk political capital from the issue in "multicultural" Australia

I had a lift from an Auckland taxi driver who was one of the Tampa people... true to good old NZ recognition of overseas qualifications a…

better than that

LOL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqH_0LPVoho

I'm so disappointed that everyone seems cool with this abusive outburst. I thought we were better than that.

While I wouldn't phrase it quite like Stephen W, I'm right on with the sentiments. The only thing that exempts Tom S from deserving a therapeutic digital tarring & feathering is the crack-brained…

and to Tom S: fuck you, you anglophile, xenophobic, ignorant, white supremacist piece of shit

I'm so disappointed that everyone seems cool with this abusive outburst. I thought we were better than that.

You took the words I really wanted to say right out of my mouth but I didn't want to start off on this site with that kind of language.

a regular commenter on this site spends a couple of hours and four comments on a Sunday lunchtime spewing out National Front/BNP-type drivel.

Come on now, it was more Richard Prebble than Kyle Chapman.

You often here that they now feel strangers in their own land. I don't think we should repeat the mistakes of the Anglo-Canadians and the English and allow excessive immigration to wrest control of our destiny from ourselves.

You'd think people would have got over the Conquest by now.

(Seriously,…

For a number of reasons, refugees are usually a huge gain to NZ. It surprises me that the number is kept so low.

After the well-publicised issues with some of the Somalis who arrived here, it's not really surprising that our politicians aren't so keen on refugees. The plane hijacking…

This is the country that took in the Tampa refugees when Howard was attempting to milk political capital from the issue in "multicultural" Australia.

Technically speaking, yes. But there's a bit of political creativity engaged in by Labour politicians, pleased to speak of "our proud humanitarian record".

New Zealand took…

If nothing else (and obviously there's a lot else) the idea that it should be more desirable and advantegous for New Zealand to establish connections with Italy as opposed to, say, China or India, seems laughable.

But not any less. I'd hate to think we would choose immigrants based on…

It's such a pity that racism predominates in employment – speaking from the anecdata of friends who arrived as immigrants and refugees, who arrived weighed down with qualifications and…

there was quite a degree of prejudice against Dutch immigrants. It was felt that they worked too hard.

And yet now, if you are looking at a house, what you want to hear your builder mate say is "ah, built by a Dutchman."

It's a shame the Dutch attitude to…

When are you next back, Jolisa? A get together we shall have

Not for a wee while, I hope (see other thread, re optimism). But I shall look forward to this.

And I seriously mean no disrespect to your work: pre-school teachers are as gods to me (and my littler…

Having said which, our surge in migration over the last couple of decades was certainly not negotiated beforehand, so unresolved fear (and Winston) is to be expected.

And in fairness, multiculturalism seems to come across as an ivory-tower luxury to those whose jobs have just been offshored to Bangalore or…

wrest control of our destiny from ourselves

Comes down to who we think "ourselves" is, and whether we acknowledge it changes over time.

enjoy both Vegemite and halva

And a measure of progress might be knowing never to combine them.

Having said which, our surge in migration over the last…

allow excessive immigration to wrest control of our destiny from ourselves

Actually, rereading this utter twaddle has inspired me to say: dude. You know that people have been saying almost precisely this in NZ (and Australia, and the USA, etc) for well over a century, right? Over and over and…

What, they changed the language while I was away too?

Don't ask me, once I wrote kindy and was severaly frowned at.

'Twas meant with respect and masses of nostalgia...

from the kindy front-lines

Oh noes! You wrote *kindy*!

Now in Canada's large cities it's somewhat amusing to hear people speaking English. Fourth generation Canadians are seen as an amusing relic.

This is both untrue, and unamusing.

English is the most-heard language in every large city except Montreal.

I meet Canadians of every generation between 1 and about 10…

I can't think of any British migrants I've met who don't scoff at "how we give it all away to the Maoris" and no longer feel at home in the UK.

Am I allowed to be offended yet ?

Their solution? Vote Labour.

Yeah, a lot of us made that mistake.

what culturally deprived NZ needed was a big influx of West Indians.

Guess he never went up the East Cape, then. plenty of hybrid Rastamen up that way.

I think one of the reasons many people in NZ…

Someone I knew who was a high-ranking kiwi bureaucrat spent a decade working in the UK and on return was full of dire warnings about NZ "heading the same way" with regard to immigration.

As Britain goes, so we go. Or should, eh? Personally I'm inclined to dismiss much of…

Italians. I don't trust Italians. And Catholics – which most Italians are. Nothing in the points system allows us to leave them out. We should have a national conversation about that.

Well those dreadful chattering classes seem overly fond of things Italian, which is probably a big negative.

I think you're quite wrong. Brasch and Fairburn et al did, and were shaped by, their OE in the 1930s. Before that, Mansfield left and didn't come back back, but Maori chiefs were doing their OE to Britain 150 years ago.

Yes, but they were exceptional. Brasch & Mansfield came from…

Wait, we should have a democratic discussion about having a 'white nation'?

As I'm sure you know, we had a White New Zealand policy 100 or so years ago. Waz not so grate, aksually.

I suspect that if you asked most New Zealanders are more than happy with migration from the white Anglosphere. If that is the case, we need to discuss that. Because if that is what the majority want, then so be it.

Wait, we should have a democratic discussion about having…

For example, i think it is prudent to discuss how much – if any – Muslim migration we want here BEFORE we have a huge Muslim minority, not after.

Although maybe we should reset the whole thing and let the Maori decide. What the heck, they might have second thoughts…

Most people that run this country (wealthy baby boomers) grew up not knowing anyone from different cultures and didn't travel much when they were young. There is still a serious fear of the unknown.

I think you're quite wrong. Brasch and Fairburn et al did, and were shaped by, their…

Let's be honest here – the Scandinavian countries whose comprehensive welfare systems and progressive policices we so admire can only afford to do so because they maintain a cultural and ethnic homogenity and they strictly control immigration.

Tom, maybe you would like to add some facts to that "honesty". Not…

(We could make all the boomers work until 70, it…

We've never had an honest discussion around numbers or preferred origin of migrants. I suspect that if you asked most New Zealanders are more than happy with migration from the white Anglosphere. If that is the case,…

qi gong on
him, to open him up and transmute his angry
energy, and mine, into benevolence......, and then
they fell silent as…

I embrace that this dialogue represents our growing as a nation, and as people.

Yes. Can I recommend "Race You There" for anyone who hasn't read it yet – on Tze Ming's site along with other articles about ethnicity and identity grounded in this country.

Statistics NZ are also doing…

I would dispute, however, that NZers didn't travel until recently.

I am not sure about this, I wonder if anyone has done any real research. I have a suspicion that the "traditional" Kiwi OE is a product of the air travel revolution from the seventies on and relates more to…

Canada has the highest per capita net immigration rate in the world and still manages to be quite admirable.

Except of course for that fact that Canada is much of a country at all anymore. it isn't much of anything really, it is more an historic accident that sort of…

The truth is that non-white and non-English speaking immigrants to this country feel no particular sentimental loyalty to NZ. Most of them I speak to, and I speak to many, want to move to Aussie/Canada/USA.

then I would suggest the feeling is mutual amongst a large body of New Zealanders…

Let's be honest here – the Scandinavian countries whose comprehensive welfare systems and progressive policices we so admire can only afford to do so because they maintain a cultural and ethnic homogenity and they strictly control immigration.

If you're going to "be honest", look up some numbers. Canada has [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Canada#Immigration_rate|the…

The truth is that non-white and non-English speaking immigrants to this country feel no particular sentimental…

Meng Foon is Mayor, of all places, Napier.

Meng Foon is Mayor of Gisborne.

Most people that run this country (wealthy baby boomers) grew up not knowing anyone from different cultures and didn't travel much when they were young.

Is that statistically true? My anecdata gives a different impression, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, of course.

In a way, NZ was late to the party on immigration, and for lack of a better analogy, it's effectively had to pressure-cook its way to multiculturalism. We've had to do in just over 20 years what Australia has done in about twice…

It was on that basis that I felt Shearer's election was a failure. Helen got the nod and it was a big deal that it went to a woman. Then it reverted to a physically capable, heterosexual, white, educated and wealthy male. Yipdee fucking shit.

Because, like, Lee should've been…

Remember Tze Ming writing about the first Banana conference, and Russell about the one after. Note that Russell's link to her speech still works.

Professor Spoonley is among speakets at this weekend's Rising Dragons, Soaring Bananas International Conference.

I just want to note that this surely deserves a prize for coolest conference name for 2009.

For further enlightenment:
Jyotsna Pattnaik – Learning about the "other": Building a case for intercultural understanding among minority children

[[http://www.coe.uga.edu/quig/trueba93.html|Henry T. Trueba
– Healing Multicultural America: The…