Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: TPP: Error Correction

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 02 Mar 2014 07:45:44 +1300

powerasites…
If the TPPA goes through we will be laid open to the predations of the great corporations – most of whom pay little or no tax if possible – how does that benefit us?
Twenty-six of the most powerful American corporations – such as Boeing, General Electric, and Verizon…

Jan Rivers

Mon, 24 Feb 2014 09:20:18 +1300

"But the point Patrick was making is that Australia and New Zealand already have several such treaties in place."
To be fair Patrick didn't make this point in his article which was part of the problem with it.
He said that prosecutions could occur without the TPP already which is…

Chris Waugh

Fri, 21 Feb 2014 11:13:25 +1300

Stop pedalling the bicycle and release the text.

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 21 Feb 2014 08:12:30 +1300

...for comic readers.
lest we forget a homegrown classic of the genre:
Comalco – Power Junky comic.
By Pete Lusk & Ron Currie for CAFCINZ (now CAFCA)
Showing how giving we were back in the '70s and we all know what's gone on since then...

Ross Mason

Thu, 20 Feb 2014 19:51:16 +1300

Here is a TPP explanation for comic readers.

Forget it. David beat me and I didn’t realise it

GAh. I must read ALL the posts!!!!!

David Hood

Thu, 20 Feb 2014 18:14:19 +1300

As someone outside of the U.S., I find aspects of this "what is wrong with the TPP in comic form" somewhat ironic.

http://boingboing.net/2014/02/18/comic-book-explains-why-the-tr.html

nzlemming

Thu, 20 Feb 2014 14:46:24 +1300

So, taken in context, Patrick is quite right, the TPP would not add a new category of legal risk for New Zealand; it would simply extend an existing mechanism further

The mechanisms in place do not allow US corporations, where most of the multi-nationals are based, to sue the New…

Daniel Kalderimis

Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:05:32 +1300

Mark – I feel compelled to correct an impression left by your response to Patrick's point 2. You are correct that a corporation may only sue a state under international investment law if there is an applicable treaty in place. But the point Patrick was making is that Australia and…

nzlemming

Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:59:31 +1300

I’d say this was the work of someone deeply ignorant of the NZ electricity generating industry, as well as a sloppy researcher.
And that’s simple stuff compared with TPP negotiations!

But quite typical of a wordsmith for hire.

ChrisW

Wed, 19 Feb 2014 13:05:19 +1300

Genesis: Error Correction
I must admit to curiousity in knowing the genesis to this "opinion piece". Smellie describes himself as ...
I see Pattrick Smellie managed communications for Contact Energy a few years ago. So no doubt he was the electricity industry expert/ principal of BusinessDesk responsible for…

Stephen R

Wed, 19 Feb 2014 09:51:27 +1300

and we must regularly remind ourselves of
just how excellent the US Justice System can be

That's one of the reasons that the idea of privately run prisons make me queasy. The other is the lobbying of governments by private prisons to increase sentences.

It should never be the case…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 19 Feb 2014 09:38:01 +1300

Entryism. New word to me DeepRed but it seems to fit the National strategy. And how can it be combatted? How about a bit of Exitism?

The Clark Govt managed to pull it off with Christine Rankin, even after she tried to take it to the courts.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 19 Feb 2014 08:40:29 +1300

and we must regularly remind ourselves of
just how excellent the US Justice System can be
A former county judge from Pennsylvania has been sentenced to 28 years in federal prison for reportedly abusing the criminal justice system by illegally jailing thousands of innocent children for cash. Mark Ciavarella Jr.…

Sacha

Wed, 19 Feb 2014 06:41:59 +1300

The TPP is not a free trade agreement. Quite the opposite. Yet the current bunch of giggling lads we've elected will sign our future away for a pat on the head from uncle sam.

Gordon Milne

Tue, 18 Feb 2014 23:22:32 +1300

The WTO should be the preferred model for free trader thinkers.

The fact that the USA continues to arrange bilateral agreements right, left and centre just shows how anti free trade it actually is.

NZ has not fared well with its open markets. Other countries have taken a more insular…

Ianmac

Tue, 18 Feb 2014 21:58:33 +1300

Entryism. New word to me DeepRed but it seems to fit the National strategy. And how can it be combatted? How about a bit of Exitism?

Kumara Republic

Tue, 18 Feb 2014 20:44:08 +1300

This seems to be the way that this Government works. Make quiet changes at the top and use the incomers to "modify" the organisation. ACC. NZNational Radio. This means that the population will not rebel because the changes are too subtle to react to.
Pharmac is a proudly supported institution…

FletcherB

Tue, 18 Feb 2014 18:39:21 +1300

What could screw Pharmac is rules requiring “Openness” of their criteria for funding, in their negotiations with Big Pharma, and allowing big pharma to appeal funding decision criteria.

So the people who are negotiating in secret, and insisting that it must remain secret... and that the public can't have a…

Ianmac

Tue, 18 Feb 2014 11:29:06 +1300

FYI Pharmac has recently had a major restructure of its management team. Staff are reportedly in shock as to which managers were let go and who got their jobs. I’m led to believe that none of the of the top 3 people with responsibility for and experience at managing the…

Sacha

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:38:32 +1300

that's potentially a problem

it certainly is. either everyone is outside the tent or everybody is inside it.

B Jones

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:35:46 +1300

We may be unaware as to whether a piece of legislation is consistent with the tpp, but we know that legislation exists and can decide whether we like it or not.

I don't think a yes/no rubber stamp at the end of the process is an ideally consultative way to…

B Jones

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:25:20 +1300

I'm not arguing it's either, presuming it's happening. Perhaps they've seen a slice of something relevant to them. But if, say, fonterra did a presentation to the nz govt about what they'd like the TPP to look like, I bet they'd be unhappy if a copy showed up on nestle's…

Don Christie

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:22:42 +1300

The key thing that will cripple Pharmac is patent related extensions. Also allowing new patents if an existing drug has a new application.

That would severely reduce the availability of generic drugs to NZers and drive the cost of drugs up to the sky.

Jan Rivers

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:06:43 +1300

I too was concerned at the inaccuracies in the opinion piece, and the plain lack of research.

Here are a few other points

Pattrick’s allegation that people concerned about the legislation are saying the TPP is a done deal. It was in fact the Minister himself who gave the strong…

Sacha

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 21:39:23 +1300

But presumably the US corporations consulted at every turn will already know what is being withheld from everyone else for 4 years. Why is that right or good?

B Jones

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 17:57:48 +1300

And also, countries can withdraw from treaties if they want. It's actually really hard for a government to do something that binds future governments.

B Jones

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 17:53:22 +1300

Keeping the background negotiations secret for four years is not the same as keeping the details of the agreement secret. The background's interesting but not enforceable, just like draft legislation isn't enforceable.

Dave Lane

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 15:01:56 +1300

Some might be interested in this precedent: PMI (Philip Morris tobacco corporation) has sued the government of Uruguay for its anti-smoking legislation (health warnings must cover 80% of the packaging) under the auspices of the Switzerland-Uruguay Bilateral Investment Treaty (BIT) at the World Bank’s International Center for Settlement of Investment…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:45:59 +1300

That’s not my fear. I think they know that Pharmac is generally well regarded by New Zealanders. What could screw Pharmac is rules requiring “Openness” of their criteria for funding, in their negotiations with Big Pharma, and allowing big pharma to appeal funding decision criteria.

That would cripple Pharmacs ability…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:37:00 +1300

Pattrick Smellie, Director, is a highly respected business journalist and co-founder of the BusinessDesk news service, which provides business news to all mainstream media outlets in New Zealand and the Australian Associated Press. Pattrick has worked on both sides of the media fence, as a press secretary to the then…

Stephen R

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:20:50 +1300

I have no doubt that given an excuse like the TPP that National would disband pharmac in second.

That's not my fear. I think they know that Pharmac is generally well regarded by New Zealanders. What could screw Pharmac is rules requiring "Openness" of their criteria for funding, in their…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:20:49 +1300

However, I'm not going to get into it with him on Twitter. He's right that it's too difficult to discuss complex issues there. But, if he's any sort of journalist, he should be able to figure out how to sign on to PAS to make his points.

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:14:38 +1300

I must admit to curiousity in knowing the genesis to this "opinion piece". Smellie describes himself as "a Wellington-based journalist, and co-owner of Content Ltd, a journalism and content wholesaler" so I'd be interested in knowing who commissioned this piece.

Kumara Republic

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 14:00:23 +1300

And the US will not and will never open up its agricultural markets in a way that impacts its farm lobby. So we aren’t going to get a better price for milk powder.

The farming lobby in America is probably more powerful than even the NRA. Same goes for the…

Hadyn Green

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:54:46 +1300

From the Smellie piece:
Back in the day, when Trade Minister Tim Groser was just another diplomat assisting World Trade Organisation negotiations, he had to run a committee involving five big nations on a deadlocked issue.

Applying the "dark arts of trade negotiation", he inserted a different minor error into…

Emma Hart

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:45:00 +1300

pretty hard to respond to a column on Twitter.

Oh, if only there were some place other than Twitter where he could respond.

Bart Janssen

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:40:15 +1300

What pissed me off about Smellie's article was not the detail but rather the whole premise that the only people objecting were the ones who didn't really know what grown ups actually did when they went to work and he was going to kindly reassure us to stop worrying and…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:36:53 +1300

With respect to Pharmac.

This National government is the only government to have use political pressure to overturn a pharmac decision. Motivated almost solely by lobbying from a pressure group that went door knocking to get votes and donations for National.

This is also the government that has several times…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:34:27 +1300

I’ve been told that the proposal includes keeping the fine detail confidential from the public for around 5 years, but I’m just looking for a source on that, so I didn’t include it in the article.

Matthew Holloway has kindly provided a source and clarified that it’s 4 years, not…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:32:17 +1300

Pattrick Smellie's responses so far:

"@publicaddress well, seeks to rebut...."

"@publicaddress pretty hard to respond to a column on Twitter. Broadly: most of what are labelled errors are actually matters for argument."

"@publicaddressand to be clear: we will get a much better TPP because of the activism and scepticism: [[http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/opinion-analysis/9423596/Important-milk-deal-signed-on-sidelines-of-Chogm…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:30:28 +1300

Here's a pretty good analysis of some of the issues and an action group that was the source of it, I believe.

Steve Curtis

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:29:06 +1300

As a further comment about trademarks and patents, the High Court agreed with the Commonwealth that registering trademarks merely prevented others from copying the mark and didnt make it real property.They referred to a previous judgement:

"Delusive exactness is a source of fallacy throughout the law. By calling a business…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:09:59 +1300

But if you were trying to mislead ….

You may very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.

Steve Curtis

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:02:50 +1300

" The bogey of corporations being able to sue governments is not only overblown, but corporations can do that now, without a TPP.'

The example of Australia causes some confusion, since Philip Morris has tried both approaches there.
The High Court (their Supreme Court) ruled that the government didn't breach…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:55:50 +1300

thought they were relying on that nation’s agreement with Hong Kong?

O gods, second correction on the same point. Quite right, my bad. I was right the first time, but with the wrong country. Australia did not sign up to the US demands for the tribunals when they signed their…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:52:03 +1300

Presumably its terms will be made public once it’s signed: it won’t have any impact before that.

I've been told that the proposal includes keeping the fine detail confidential from the public for around 5 years, but I'm just looking for a source on that, so I didn't include it…

Sacha

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:48:44 +1300

what the tobacco industry is doing in Australia at present

thought they were relying on that nation's agreement with Hong Kong?

B Jones

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:40:05 +1300

The guts of it seems to come down to what level of openness the TPP will have before it has any impact. Presumably its terms will be made public once it's signed: it won't have any impact before that. At some point after that, the govt will put its terms…

Andrew E

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:43:07 +1300

And I'll ingest more caffeine, so I don't miss the sarcasm in future... :-)

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:34:58 +1300

I agree with you about the secrecy, Mark, but ‘nothing to hide, nothing to fear’ is not a valid argument in relation to the surveillance. The point is that governments should be accountable to their people, not the other way around. And that in order to have a legitimately representative…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:33:10 +1300

The only quibble I have is with the statement that members of Parliament are not representative of the population as a whole. Sure, in the socio-economic sense, but we elected the buggers.

Umm, I think I did say that, Tracey:

Smellie can’t (or won’t) tell us how many NZ politicians…

Andrew E

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:25:30 +1300

If they have nothing to hide, surely they have nothing to fear. That's the excuse that governments are using to apply more surveillance to civil society – it's just as validly applied to them.

I agree with you about the secrecy, Mark, but 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' is…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:25:16 +1300

That's a good place to start. Robyn, it's a multi-national treaty that started life as a much smaller trade agreement between 4 nations – NZ, Brunei, Chile and Singapore. As hopes for ACTA started to fade because of European intransigence, the US decided to join in and try and do…

TracyMac

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:23:54 +1300

The only quibble I have is with the statement that members of Parliament are not representative of the population as a whole. Sure, in the socio-economic sense, but we elected the buggers.

Brent Jackson

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 11:09:34 +1300

Have you read the wikipedia article on it yet ?

Robyn Gallagher

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:46:40 +1300

Could someone please give me a brief explanation of what the TPP is and why it's so important. I've seen many tweets on the subject, but when I ask, no one seems to have the time to describe it. Like, pretend I know nothing and go from there.

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:39:20 +1300

A slight correction to point 2 – corporations can sue in court, under the laws of a country, which is actually what the tobacco industry is doing in Australia at present. What the TPP would allow them to do is seek judgements against governments from a private tribunal, made up…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:16:06 +1300

Just what are we going to be exporting there that's going to make so much money?

And the US will not and will never open up its agricultural markets in a way that impacts its farm lobby. So we aren't going to get a better price for milk powder.…

Public Address

Mon, 17 Feb 2014 10:16:06 +1300

Discussion from blog post.