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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: The Voyage: Dutch Disease – Fatal to Innovation</title>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
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				<title>Andrew C</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260948#post260948</link>
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						<p><q>A bad idea for several reasons:</q></p><p>At least part of the idea of a Financial Transaction tax is to STOP the speculation from happening in the first place (slims margins).  So the fact it moves away etc and doesn't generate lots of tax doesn't mean it hasn't done its job,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2012 10:49:44 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kumara Republic</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260947#post260947</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260947#post260947</guid>
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						<p>Further to add, Norway was one of the few countries to have averted the Dutch Disease – by establishing the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Folketrygdfondet</a> sovereign fund – and they’ve never looked back.</p><p>Like him or hate him, Tony Benn had <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20100216214529/www.thefirstpost.co.uk/5523,news-comment,news-politics,with-a-sensible-oil-policy-britain-could-have-been-as-rich-as-norway" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">similar plans</a> for Britain’s North Sea oil revenues, and Norm Kirk here in…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jun 2012 09:57:32 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260821#post260821</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260821#post260821</guid>
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						<p><q>$350k? Seriously? I would have thought it MUCH lower than that. Would be interested in a reference.</q></p><p>It was in a break-down of how various household compositions have been affected by National's tenure. Green Party, I think.<br />And lower? Really? 1% in the US is about USD750k. Our 1% level…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2012 10:36:56 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260803#post260803</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260803#post260803</guid>
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						<p><q>Am I being naiive?</q><br />Well you're definitely not one 'i'ed about it...<br />" &ndash;  )</p><p>But you lost me at 'magic money' <br />after that it feels like a shell game...</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2012 08:49:17 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Terry Johnson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260800#post260800</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260800#post260800</guid>
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						I wonder if a different tack on property might be possible and I'd like to know why this would/wouldn't feasible. Two problems with a property credit boom are that we wind up as a country paying billions overseas in interest and our dollar rises hurting our exports. Now hypothetically consider…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2012 00:03:11 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rob Stowell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260790#post260790</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260790#post260790</guid>
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						<p>I wish I could see past my narrow self-interest on this one :)<br />We are classically ‘asset-rich, cash poor’. Not because we sank loads of money into property: it’s a family property, and it was bought way-back when land prices- for marginal farming land- were very low.<br />Due to the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 21:18:41 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260783#post260783</link>
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						Yep, I agree there is a need to address Maori Trust owned land &ndash; that is tricky.  And conservation land as well, and I am sure there are others.  There would be SOME exemptions.  Though I'm not sure how they would be chosen.  There are Maori trusts in the North…
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 19:28:46 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260782#post260782</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260782#post260782</guid>
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						<p>$350k?  Seriously?  I would have thought it MUCH lower than that.  Would be interested in a reference.</p><p>But it also speaks to my concerns &ndash; we concentrate all our efforts on income without really trying to identify wealth beyond that.</p><p>I also think most of that 25% would be better…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 19:24:34 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Islander</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260781#post260781</link>
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						<p><q>Maybe I live in too simple a world, but I reckon there is a good way to identify the 1%. They own all the land.</q></p><p>Nope. Kai Tahu *as an iwi* own a lot of South Island land &ndash; but we are many.<br />We sure as shit arnt any part…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 19:19:36 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260780#post260780</link>
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						<p><q>I reckon there is a good way to identify the 1%. They own all the land.</q><br />Maybe, maybe not. Our 1% is actually a very low-level club &ndash; income of a mere $350k will gain you entrance. We pay our politicians so much that the PM is a member by…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 19:13:22 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260779#post260779</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260779#post260779</guid>
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						<p><a href="http://www.victoria.ac.nz/sacl/cagtr/pdf/tax-report-website.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.victoria.ac.nz/sacl/cagtr/pdf/tax-report-website.pdf</a></p><p>Here is the Tax Working Group's final report from 2010.  They came down favouring land tax though at a lower level than I would aim it.  They suggested .5% land tax could raise up to $2.3b.  I would aim higher with the intention of lowering other taxes (income or…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 19:07:33 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Stephen Judd</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260776#post260776</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260776#post260776</guid>
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						<p><q>I don’t believe forcing anyone who is not wealthy off land they cannot crowbar into constant dollar-making would be the way to change this :)</q></p><p>LIKE</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 18:08:31 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260775#post260775</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260775#post260775</guid>
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						Not much. Just more and funds to central govt.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 18:07:10 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260773#post260773</link>
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						<p>Will have a look when I get home. I think tax working group provided some figures.</p><p>I don't think cgt comes close in amount raised and therefore in ability to change model</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 18:04:55 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Brent Jackson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260772#post260772</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260772#post260772</guid>
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						Don't we already pay land tax ?  Just that it's to local government, and it's called rates.  How would your proposed land tax differ from that ?
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 17:52:23 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rob Stowell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260768#post260768</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260768#post260768</guid>
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						<p><q>In my view a modest but broad land tax would fund sufficient revenue to provide for a meaningful reduction in income taxes and allow an attempt at a ‘different way’ of chasing economic prosperity (as a nation) than the path we are currently on.</q><br />How so? <br />To me it just…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 17:04:40 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260767#post260767</link>
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						<p>How much unproductive land does one person need (or should be allowed to monopolise)?</p><p>I do feel a little sympathy for those who may struggle to pay a land tax on desirable land through lack of sufficient income or other funds, but I feel more sorry for all those who…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 16:52:40 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rob Stowell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260765#post260765</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260765#post260765</guid>
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						<p><q>a land tax would be rated depending on the value of the land so highly productive land would be worth more</q><br />As opposed to a lovely native forest with beautiful views over a lake, say? Not highly productive, but highly desirable to a developer. Land value is dependent on a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 16:39:49 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Scott Chris</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260760#post260760</link>
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						<p><q>A bad idea for several reasons:</q></p><p>Maybe, maybe not. Depends how it’s implemented I guess.</p><p>That argument aside, a more radical notion would be to ‘un-float’ (I hesitate to use the word ‘sink’) the dollar and charge the reserve bank with the responsibility of setting its value relative to the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 16:31:55 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260758#post260758</link>
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						<p>I’ve always thought a land tax would be rated depending on the value of the land so highly productive land would be worth more and would attract a higher level of tax. The counter would be true for marginal land.</p><p>All tax systems have winners and losers. The current system’s…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 16:26:28 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rob Stowell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260751#post260751</link>
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						<p>A land tax also has down-sides. Eg do you tax all land? Equally? <br />It’s not all equally productive. Much of NZ is marginal for farming at best. <br />Should every inch of land that’s not being used ‘productively’ be forced to become productive? Clearing scrub, taking out native gullies, pushing the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:37:22 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260748#post260748</link>
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						<p>Except that the CAP costs <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11216061" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">half of one percent</a> of European GDP, and has a negligible effect on food prices (which are mostly *cheaper* than NZ's "globally determined" ones).</p><p>I think the property bubble has rather more of an impact on the NZ economy than that.</p><p>The CAP is in…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:18:15 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Angus Robertson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260747#post260747</link>
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						<p><q>And I've said it before, but the property bubble seems to be NZ's equivalent of the Common Agricultural Policy.</q></p><p>On the upside, until 2009 you were totally correct.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:07:22 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Angus Robertson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260746#post260746</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260746#post260746</guid>
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						<p><q>The other bidders were looking to pay a fair value for the properties, not to win the bidding at any cost, but now that someone’s set a new benchmark (no matter how ludicrous) it feeds through to the rest of the market.</q></p><p>It doesn't.  The rural property bubble burst here…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:04:09 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260742#post260742</link>
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						<p><q>easily avoidable</q></p><p>In the absence of an international implementation, yes. However it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the G20 will agree to develop one, and if it happens at that level of economic activity it's effectively a global tax.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:34:30 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260741#post260741</link>
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						This was only a few weeks ago, so I doubt they've yet had time to get it going properly.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:31:37 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260740#post260740</link>
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						<p><q> I’ve got friends who had to go begging on fucking Facebook to get a few grand</q></p><p>Did their businesses succeed?</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:30:09 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Rich of Observationz</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260739#post260739</link>
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						<p><q>a Financial Transactions Tax </q></p><p>A bad idea for several reasons:<br />&ndash; easily avoidable. You're taxing an activity that can morph into something else (like a contract for differences) and move offshore at the click of a key. Compare this with a land tax, which, if government controls the land registry,…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:29:15 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kumara Republic</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260737#post260737</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260737#post260737</guid>
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						<q>For starters, banks are still much more willing to lend on property than on anything else. Want to start a business? GLWT. I’ve got friends who had to go begging on fucking Facebook to get a few grand (literally. All they wanted was $5k) in lending because their bank didn’t…</q>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:21:46 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260736#post260736</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260736#post260736</guid>
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						Which is why land taxes are the answer. Changes economics of what you do with land in favour of capital investment and away from low value use or seeking capital gains.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:15:35 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260735#post260735</link>
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						<p><q>But in New Zealand you think property can only go up.</q></p><p>In the absence of a fundamental change in how we address property sale transactions, yes. You point to Crafar, and it’s those kinds of transactions that drive up the prices for everyone else. The other bidders were looking to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 14:06:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Angus Robertson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260734#post260734</link>
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						<p><q>For most of the rest, they hang in there for a couple more years and wait for the market to resume its climb.</q></p><p>It will resume climbing?  </p><p>The Crafar Farms were sold to the Chinese at about twice as much as the next highest bidder was willing to pay.  Property…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 13:50:59 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Matthew Poole</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260733#post260733</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260733#post260733</guid>
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						<p><q>How do farmers farm for capital gain and make a "tax-free" profit when farm capital values decline by 20%?</q></p><p>For the saps who bought right before the drop, they suffer. For most of the rest, they hang in there for a couple more years and wait for the market to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 13:06:43 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Angus Robertson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260729#post260729</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260729#post260729</guid>
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						<p><q>Farming in New Zealand has become more of a property development game; production is a secondary issue, there to service debt up to the point that the current owner cashes out to the next tax-free.</q></p><p>Since 2009 rural property values have fallen by 15 &ndash; 25%.  </p><p><q>New Zealand’s macroeconomic settings…</q></p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 12:33:30 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kumara Republic</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260727#post260727</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260727#post260727</guid>
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						<p><q>Land taxes combined with reduced income taxes. Broad based and universally applied (ie few exceptions)</q></p><p><em>Four Horsemen</em> explored that path, suggesting shifting the tax burden from capital and labour, to consumption, speculation and pollution among other things.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 11:57:39 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kumara Republic</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260726#post260726</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260726#post260726</guid>
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						<p><q>Well, we could start with a Financial Transactions Tax on speculative foreign exchange transactions.</q></p><p>Indeed. It'll work a lot more effectively with G8/G20 backing, though.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 11:56:10 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Sam M</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260723#post260723</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260723#post260723</guid>
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						Land taxes combined with reduced income taxes.  Broad based and universally applied (ie few exceptions)
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 11:12:09 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Ian Dalziel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260719#post260719</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260719#post260719</guid>
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						<p><strong>Dike Ottomanny...</strong><br />aah! <br />That <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Dutch Disease,</a> <br />I thought it was going to be that <br />earlier commodities madness &ndash; <a href="http://www.investopedia.com/features/crashes/crashes2.asp#axzz1x9M33cSX" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Tulips!</a><br />Commodity dell'arte indeed...</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:49:33 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Scott Chris</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260711#post260711</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260711#post260711</guid>
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						<p><q> What would we need to do to start transitioning to a more logical economic situation?</q></p><p>Well, we could start with a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_transaction_tax " target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Financial Transactions Tax</a> on speculative foreign exchange transactions.</p><p>Printing money would undermine the value of the $kiwi too.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:14:53 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260710#post260710</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-voyage-dutch-disease-fatal-to/?p=260710#post260710</guid>
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						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2012 10:14:53 +1200</pubDate>
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