Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: The purpose of science and its limits https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Ross Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310869#post310869 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310869#post310869 My problem with that is that over 20 years none of the magic has worked. So my thinking is how about we stop doing things that don’t work and simply do the thing that has worked in every other country.

(Being the atheist I am, forgive me, I will have…

]]> Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:06:44 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310856#post310856 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310856#post310856 over 20 years none of the magic has worked. So my thinking is how about we stop doing things that don't work and simply do the thing that has worked in every other country.

Yes. Applies to everything really. NZ tried neoliberalism pretty thoroughly from 1984 to 1999, yet fools…

]]> Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:24:28 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310853#post310853 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310853#post310853 Official business stats would understate R & D conducted too though. I used to have to fill out the quarterly Statistic NZ form and it was so annoying to constantly have to do that you would fill it out as fast as possible and simply put down 0 for R & D… ]]> Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:55:30 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310852#post310852 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310852#post310852 We need more of both, but isn’t our private share less than half what it should be?

Agreed of course. Industry R&D is a third or less of OECD averages. As far as anyone can tell from the experiences in other countries (bearing in mind every country is, well, a whole…

]]> Tue, 22 Apr 2014 09:48:57 +1200 bmk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310773#post310773 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310773#post310773 Official business stats series do not restrict their definition to what IRD (or Steven Joyce) considers to be R&D.

Official business stats would understate R & D conducted too though. I used to have to fill out the quarterly Statistic NZ form and it was so annoying to constantly have to…

]]> Sat, 19 Apr 2014 17:07:47 +1200 debunk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310769#post310769 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310769#post310769 Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:41:12 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310768#post310768 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310768#post310768 Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:13:36 +1200 debunk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310765#post310765 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310765#post310765 Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:16:51 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310763#post310763 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310763#post310763 Sat, 19 Apr 2014 12:56:24 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310762#post310762 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310762#post310762 I think the "private sector" does a lot of R&D

An opinion not supported by evidence, I'm afraid. NZ business has always skimped on R&D compared with other nations.

]]> Sat, 19 Apr 2014 12:54:56 +1200 debunk https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310757#post310757 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310757#post310757 Sat, 19 Apr 2014 12:19:49 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310642#post310642 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310642#post310642 the real issue for New Zealand R&D

is that our private sector has never invested their share

That is propaganda by the governments (Labour and National).

While it is true that business funding is low, the government funding is at best two thirds of the OECD average (depending on how…

]]> Thu, 17 Apr 2014 09:24:20 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310641#post310641 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310641#post310641 Tony Abbott’s impending CSIRO cuts

No ASIO cuts though, I'd wager...

]]> Thu, 17 Apr 2014 08:26:29 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310639#post310639 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310639#post310639 Tony Abbott's impending CSIRO cuts, the current situation in NZ is a cautionary tale. ]]> Thu, 17 Apr 2014 02:00:29 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310637#post310637 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310637#post310637 we can rename the funding agencies again...
Nobody will notice we haven’t actually made a bit of difference
Me Sir, me Sir, I know, I know!
How about – DSIR – Department of Scientific Irrelevance Reduction

]]> Wed, 16 Apr 2014 22:25:44 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310636#post310636 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310636#post310636 the real issue for New Zealand R&D

is that our private sector has never invested their share

]]> Wed, 16 Apr 2014 22:12:42 +1200 Brent Jackson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310604#post310604 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310604#post310604 Wed, 16 Apr 2014 14:42:08 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310420#post310420 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310420#post310420 For those finding themselves a little rage deficient this weekend.

Gah. That’s all I’m going to say. There’s just too much to rant about.

Joyce is just enacting for the Universities everything that National have enacted for all the other R&D funded by the taxpayers. Their logic is that we should…

]]> Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:18:23 +1200 Chris Waugh https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310413#post310413 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310413#post310413 Make a submission to the select committee here: AcademicVoice

Thanks, Rob. I'll have a look at submitting. But no need to stomach being heard – I'll still be in Beijing for a few months yet, so that's my excuse for not appearing in front of the select committee.

]]> Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:48:52 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310404#post310404 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310404#post310404 Gah. That’s all I’m going to say. There’s just too much to rant about.
Make a submission to the select committee here: AcademicVoice
(Only takes a couple of minutes ... and if you can stomach it, tick the option to be heard. You can change your mind on that, but…

]]> Mon, 14 Apr 2014 10:28:22 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310402#post310402 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310402#post310402 Lame stream media...
in breaking news from the Sydney Morning Herald

Prime Minister Tony Abbott is poised to break a key election promise by cutting funding to the ABC, with the key question now being how much money should be cut.

Let's see how far that goes to devolving to…

]]> Mon, 14 Apr 2014 03:36:57 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310392#post310392 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310392#post310392 I dunno much about science…
…but I know what I like.

…and this is pretty neat!

3D zoom thru Earthquake data
more mad molecule maker than shaker

]]> Sun, 13 Apr 2014 17:56:39 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310380#post310380 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310380#post310380 Lame stream media...
in breaking news from the Sydney Morning Herald
Prime Minister Tony Abbott is poised to break a key election promise by cutting funding to the ABC, with the key question now being how much money should be cut.

]]> Sun, 13 Apr 2014 09:03:03 +1200 Ross Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310371#post310371 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310371#post310371 Thanks Chris Waugh for pointing out the article. I had no inkling BTW.

If you believe Joyce, it's not an arm-wrestle over how many engineers and ag scientists we need versus philosophers and poets, but a struggle for international competitiveness – both for our universities and economy.

Steven Joyce's latest…

]]> Sat, 12 Apr 2014 22:06:22 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310364#post310364 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310364#post310364 Gah. That’s all I’m going to say.
Joyce applies the same logic that sees the Canterbury Museum doubling its entry fee 'because' of dropping visitor numbers...

...go figure!

]]> Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:28:13 +1200 Chris Waugh https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310363#post310363 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310363#post310363 For those finding themselves a little rage deficient this weekend.

Gah. That's all I'm going to say. There's just too much to rant about.

]]> Sat, 12 Apr 2014 19:01:32 +1200 Jack Heinemann https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310348#post310348 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310348#post310348 Sat, 12 Apr 2014 13:00:09 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310329#post310329 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310329#post310329 Apocalypses notwithstanding, the alternative may well be the future Walter M Miller Jr creates in A Canticle for Leibowitz

Set in a Catholic monastery in the desert of the Southwestern United States after a devastating nuclear war, the story spans thousands of years as civilization rebuilds itself. The…

]]> Sat, 12 Apr 2014 07:24:54 +1200 Ross Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310326#post310326 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310326#post310326 And it doesn’t help to not have teachers with the skills to sift woo from evidence based medicine or leave what skills they do have at the school gate on the way to the classroom.

“Teachers trial flu jab alternatives"

It saddens me after 43 years involved in…

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 23:23:11 +1200 Jack Heinemann https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310324#post310324 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310324#post310324 There is a lot happening in the sector on academic freedom. The new group Academic Freedom Aotearoa is grappling with many of these issues and would welcome contributions to its blog series. http://academicfreedom.kiwi.nz/

Seems that much emphasis in science communication is lately incentivising professional scientists to communicate. There is a…

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 22:39:29 +1200 George Darroch https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310305#post310305 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310305#post310305
But we also need some help, in particular from the MSM. Because as much as we as scientist are really trying to make sense to our audiences, if the MSM insists on playing silly buggers with disinformation then there is very little we can do to counteract that.

This is…

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 18:27:00 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310297#post310297 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310297#post310297 Unfortunately I don’t think the MSM is not going to come to our rescue

I think you're right. And I do think the current batch of voices are making inroads. But it is depressing when we're faced with The Economist reporting a good news story about the reduction in carbon…

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 14:58:08 +1200 Shaun Hendy https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310296#post310296 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310296#post310296 But we also need some help, in particular from the MSM.

Unfortunately I don't think the MSM is not going to come to our rescue any time soon – not until they've found a new business model that can support quality journalism over click bait. For now I would say…

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 14:16:07 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310293#post310293 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310293#post310293 Scientific knowledge is increasing rapidly, and none of us can be experts on everything. So we need resources to support accurate reporting of scientific issues, and we need to find ways to communicate the value, if not the infallibility, of scientific opinion based on scientific fact.

This.

And also a…

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 13:57:53 +1200 George Darroch https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310287#post310287 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310287#post310287 Simon Lamb's film Thin Ice is an excellent film in its own right, but it is also a clear explanation of the work and value of scientists. I'd recommend it.

My discouragement at the lack of a framework that enables scientists is also real, but it isn't from disappointment. I've…

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:17:33 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310275#post310275 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310275#post310275 Gene genie…
Communication and information are at the heart of all processes, whether it is the code of language, or the code of chemistry and physics – we, and all that surrounds us, are byproducts of those interactions, not the other way round, as human hubris often insists.

You (we)…

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 09:23:09 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310274#post310274 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-purpose-of-science-and-its-limits/?p=310274#post310274 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Fri, 11 Apr 2014 09:23:09 +1200