Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: The plan against the rebuild https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Andrew R266 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325793#post325793 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325793#post325793 Sat, 20 Sept 2014 16:05:18 +1200 Philip Hayward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325390#post325390 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325390#post325390 Mind you, Liverpool's been around a whole lot longer than Detroit.

Thanks for a constructive response, DeepRed.

There is quite a correlation between how long a city has been around, and its likely overall density in the modern era.

Is there any example of a high density city that has…

]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 19:19:20 +1200 Philip Hayward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325389#post325389 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325389#post325389 I will endeavour to be completely civil and avoid the appearance of snideness. But I think advocates of housing affordability, like myself, have grounds to be somewhat testy with the obfuscators, given the real life evidence.

You've read the source material and don't agree with its "assumptions"?

What have "assumptions"…

]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 19:07:07 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325279#post325279 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325279#post325279 But if Detroit had a UGB/green belt around it, it could be more like Liverpool – industrial decline, high unemployment and crime rates, loss of population (very similar), STILL-HIGH urban density, AND unaffordable house prices!!!!!!

Mind you, Liverpool's been around a whole lot longer than Detroit.

]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 12:15:55 +1200 Moz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325244#post325244 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325244#post325244 Pavletich has been pointing out all along, and numerous people obviously have a comprehension problem, that there are cities that are systemically affordable

If you'd rather not address my points it would be better if you didn't post, rather than resorting to snide remarks. I appreciate that you don't have…

]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 09:29:30 +1200 Philip Hayward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325237#post325237 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325237#post325237 Despite Paveltich's optimism, I predict that if they were built they'd be yet more enclaves of overpriced, covenanted mcmansions.

Pavletich has been pointing out all along, and numerous people obviously have a comprehension problem, that there are cities that are systemically affordable, i.e. a median multiple of 3; because they…

]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 08:39:27 +1200 Philip Hayward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325234#post325234 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325234#post325234 the very cheapest houses in America also happen to be areas of industrial decline and high crime rates, such as Detroit.

But if Detroit had a UGB/green belt around it, it could be more like Liverpool – industrial decline, high unemployment and crime rates, loss of population (very similar), STILL-HIGH…

]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 08:28:35 +1200 Philip Hayward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325228#post325228 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325228#post325228 DeepRed, I agree with you that NZ's house price bubble has vested interests that make it impossible to do effective reform. The foremost manifestation of this is the never-ending fabricated opposition to effective reform of urban land supply regulations.

The smart people in the vested interests, which includes the finance…

]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 08:00:41 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325219#post325219 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325219#post325219 So yes, ditch the planners by all means, but at the start of the process get developers, public officials and architects (probably including some international firms, to challenge the status quo) to agree a design language appropriate to a city's history and values and maybe a transect with a rough… ]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 00:12:29 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325218#post325218 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325218#post325218 The risks in NZ are now so precarious because of the housing bubble that people should be concerned, yet they're not.

The problem is the NZ housing bubble has become our equivalent of G7 farm subsidies – long overdue for reform, but vested interests are too powerful for anyone to…

]]> Thu, 18 Sept 2014 00:09:35 +1200 Blair Pritchard https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325217#post325217 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325217#post325217 Thu, 18 Sept 2014 00:02:17 +1200 Philip Hayward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325207#post325207 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325207#post325207 Earlier, DeepRed, you said "even Houston is taking steps to encourage building upwards".

Actually, in the locations it is happening in Houston, it was never discouraged. Houston has no centrally imposed zoning. All the zoning is by "covenant" or a local form of it. In most of the central commercial…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 22:26:38 +1200 Philip Hayward https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325204#post325204 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325204#post325204 Wed, 17 Sept 2014 21:53:00 +1200 Jim Cathcart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325198#post325198 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325198#post325198 Wed, 17 Sept 2014 21:07:57 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325189#post325189 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325189#post325189 Wed, 17 Sept 2014 20:33:51 +1200 Graham Dunster https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325170#post325170 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325170#post325170 Thank god we don't have the nanny state forced on us by the Helen Clark government, think how much worse it would all be in that scenario...

(Yes, irony.)

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 18:04:33 +1200 Moz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325129#post325129 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325129#post325129 Paveltich tends to say, on the edges of town, let anybody develop suburbs anywhere so long as they're willing to front the infrastructure costs via MUDs.

I haven't heard him say anything about public transport that could be construed as positive, making the whole "push them out of town" approach…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 16:45:26 +1200 Eric Crampton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325093#post325093 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325093#post325093 Wed, 17 Sept 2014 15:09:46 +1200 Eric Crampton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325092#post325092 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325092#post325092 Wed, 17 Sept 2014 15:08:29 +1200 Eric Crampton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325088#post325088 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325088#post325088 Wed, 17 Sept 2014 15:03:40 +1200 Eric Crampton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325086#post325086 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325086#post325086 Wed, 17 Sept 2014 15:01:41 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325067#post325067 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325067#post325067 Beaut summary of a bloody mess, Eric. I don’t agree with you on many things economic, but you’ve nailed a lot of the elements here.
I think CCC have woken up somewhat under Lianne Dalziel, but not enough. CERA have been a major disappointment. Brownlee – I dunno what he’s…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 14:04:22 +1200 ilmars Gravis https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325051#post325051 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=325051#post325051 Wed, 17 Sept 2014 13:03:35 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324994#post324994 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324994#post324994 A voters guide to the Christchurch rebuild for the rest of NZ ]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 10:24:44 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324982#post324982 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324982#post324982 Pavletich has only himself to blame, though given his highly public disconnect from reality he’ll remain trapped in the ideological bubble for which he happens to be the local franchise.

Yep, Pavletich isn’t so much a developer as a speculator, and continues to be a fanboy of Houston’s sprawl model.…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 10:07:16 +1200 David Haywood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324971#post324971 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324971#post324971 Excellent essay, Eric!

I've often been struck by a similar thought to that which you express so eloquently here — that somehow the recovery has managed to find the 'un-sweet' spot between a highly-directed government response (that ploughed ahead with just getting things done) and a totally un-coordinated laissez-faire rebuild.…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 09:37:49 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324967#post324967 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324967#post324967 King Gerry and his appointed apparachiks are a disaster for Christchurch.

You could add imported apparatchiks. A number of these people commute to their cosy sinecures.

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 09:24:01 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324963#post324963 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324963#post324963 or in precis:
Christchurch – Suddenly, nothing happened....

Here's a show to watch on Sunday morning TV1
Christchurch: From the Streets
The first episode of the six-part series airs at 11.30am on TV1 on Sunday.
Each episode has a theme – Where we are at, Affordable Housing, the…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 09:18:38 +1200 Tom Semmens https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324962#post324962 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324962#post324962 From Teara:

On 11 March 1931 the government appointed magistrate J. S. Barton and engineer L. B. Campbell as commissioners of Napier. Together with local committees they had the daunting task of organising reconstruction.

The rebuild of Napier is the gold standard against which the disaster that is the Canterbury…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 09:17:48 +1200 Bill Bennett https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324957#post324957 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324957#post324957 "In my view, too many city planners spent far too much of their youths playing _SimCity_,"

This is both amusing and disturbingly close to the truth — especially considering the version of _SimCity_ we had (maybe still have) includes an earthquake hazard.

The point about the best cities being _organic_…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 08:46:36 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324953#post324953 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324953#post324953 Shortly after the September earthquakes, developer Hugh Pavletich argued for the release of more land on the more stable western city fringes. Nothing happened. And, amazingly, neither did anything happen after the February earthquakes.

Pavletich has only himself to blame, though given his highly public disconnect from reality he’ll remain…

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 08:04:38 +1200 andin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324947#post324947 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324947#post324947 Confusopoly, what a great word. All the best with the book launch.

The worst failure of this government, yet they tout it as their great success.
"Rotten to the core" comes to mind when I think of Key &Co.

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 07:32:46 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324946#post324946 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-the-plan-against-the-rebuild/?p=324946#post324946 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Wed, 17 Sept 2014 07:32:46 +1200