Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: The Government you Deserve

Tamsin6

Wed, 06 Jul 2016 23:00:31 +1200

The Chilcot report is finally out – worth reading at least the summary. Labour party politics have been interesting enough in the past couple of weeks, much of it in anticipation of this report – there is bound to be even more division and recriminations now. Typically Blair is already…

Alfie

Wed, 06 Jul 2016 18:08:57 +1200

Alfie, you’re giving cherry-picking a bad name. I hope you’re reading all the other Guardian articles as well.

I read the Guardian every day Simon, along with several other European news outlets. We have a son living in the UK and I correspond with several British friends, having lived there…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 06 Jul 2016 17:28:55 +1200

Corbyn doesn’t support Brexit.

Also, the *only* Labour leaders to have won an election since WW2 are Attlee, Wilson and Blair. I see Corbyn as in the Attlee mould. Attlee won a huge majority against all predictions and went on to lead the most radical government in modern British history:…

simon g

Wed, 06 Jul 2016 16:56:53 +1200

So Tony Blair is the answer? Or Harold Wilson.

I don't think that's what Corbyn & co have in mind.

Let's update the maths, using the calculator:

http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/userpoll.html

(Bear in mind that Corbyn can't deliver to the SNP or Lib Dems, as long as he supports Brexit. So Labour will need…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 06 Jul 2016 16:47:44 +1200

Labour would have won without Scotland in 6 of the 8 elections they won since WW2:
https://commonslibraryblog.com/2014/01/30/general-elections-without-scotland-part-1-1945-2010/

(There are various different ways of looking at this, but the RUK is very clearly winnable by Labour. More so, if NI left as well).

I don’t know why people persist in repeating…

simon g

Wed, 06 Jul 2016 16:37:56 +1200

Alfie, you're giving cherry-picking a bad name. I hope you're reading all the other Guardian articles as well. I'd back Neil Kinnock's Labour credentials over somebody who joined five minutes ago.

To repeat (3rd time): I/we don't "fail to see the rising groundswell of support", at all. Please stop insulting…

Alfie

Wed, 06 Jul 2016 16:14:11 +1200

To those who fail to see the rising groundswell of support in the UK for Corbyn’s style of Labour, I commend read this piece from the heart from Dan Isles. He’s one of the people who found Corbyn inspirational and signed up to the party, doubling its memnership under Corbyn.…

BenWilson

Mon, 04 Jul 2016 23:55:53 +1200

Leaving his mess for some hapless spooge wrangler to clean up.

nzlemming

Mon, 04 Jul 2016 21:36:46 +1200

And now Farage is running for cover

BenWilson

Mon, 04 Jul 2016 10:11:16 +1200

Because that’s not how constitutional monarchy works.

In terms of wielding power, the monarchy have no great power. But in terms of a refusal to even express an opinion, that is simply the policy of an individual monarch. It's quite possible that Charles might do it very differently. It's possible…

tussock

Sun, 03 Jul 2016 02:53:34 +1200

Only thing I read made any sense was British folk have used their relatively proportional votes on Europe as a means of expressing discontent with their local government for the last lifetime, and not actually cared what happened with them afterward.

Because that's all the papers and other media ever…

william blake

Sat, 02 Jul 2016 10:20:53 +1200

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/margaret-thatcher-brexit-thatcherism-leave-1980s

God, now blaming the North for resurrection of a zombie Thatcherism, as if it ever went away.

The Tory government ran a referendum to scupper the racist thug Ukip vote, assuming it would be a clear win for remain. The referendum shows there is a deeper antipathy in the…

nzlemming

Sat, 02 Jul 2016 00:31:43 +1200

I have wondered why the monarchy isn't doing anything, or preventing anything from being done.

Because that's not how constitutional monarchy works. If the Queen got involved, as opposed to the Crown (quite different things, legally), you would really see bloody revolution in the streets, especially in the current climate.

nzlemming

Sat, 02 Jul 2016 00:26:21 +1200

I am terrified that Australia is about to re-elect a RWDB government presided over by a former merchant banker with a nice smile (you may find that discomfortingly familiar in NZ).

Let slip the Dingos of War!

nzlemming

Sat, 02 Jul 2016 00:23:28 +1200

Labour MP Diane Abbott — This is not Labour MPs vs Corbyn. They’re at war with party members

Exactly.

nzlemming

Sat, 02 Jul 2016 00:19:13 +1200

Oh god, don't make me read that Pilger column again. It's incoherent.

Glad it's not just me. I'm generally a fan but that was pure polemic.

Joe Wylie

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 20:34:03 +1200

"...Paul Weller struck out against Prime Minister David Cameron who claimed his liking for The Jam classic 'Eton Rifles': "The whole thing with Cameron saying it was one of his favourite songs... I just think, 'Which bit didn't you get?'"
Reminds me of the young Bob Dylan's account of being…

Rich Lock

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 20:30:59 +1200

Except turnout was pretty good

Not exactly how I meant it. Want of understanding of popular opinion on the part of our elected representatives would be closer, but doesn't quite scan so well....

Rich Lock

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 20:28:13 +1200

There's an interesting article here comparing and contrasting the differences between the Scottish Independence referendum and the Brexit referendum. The main difference being that all of the issues were worked out and discussed in advance....

Rich Lock

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 20:26:54 +1200

It's hard to see how nutting out an exit plan and then putting it to the people is ignoring their will. But then I don't live in under Westminster democracy any more so perhaps I have forgotten what a pale shade of democracy it is, how little experience they have…

David Hood

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 20:13:08 +1200

For want of the voters the referendum was lost…..

Except turnout was pretty good

That not much of a relationship slope line- you can draw a horizontal line through the uncertainty area.

The trend line for Remain voters being less capable of putting a cross in a box is much…

Rich Lock

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 19:53:48 +1200

don't know how Bosworth Field lodged itself in my head.

For want of a nail the shoe was lost....

The earliest reference to the full proverb may refer to the death of Richard III of England at the Battle of Bosworth Field.

The proverb of course ending with: "For the…

andin

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 19:14:10 +1200

re-wilding large tracts of the UK (wolves and otters and bears,
They're make better neighbours than some hair reduced bipeds, I can see his point.
that said still a ridiculous straw(yes)man

Dennis Frank

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 16:07:56 +1200

I suppose a conspiracy theorist would assume that a black spider lurks at the centre of the interweb. As someone who had their psyche taken over by the deep-green thingy back in '68 (underground newspaper feature on agribusiness poisoning the soil in the USA) I can vouch for the fact…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 15:23:46 +1200

No monarch has been forced to abdicate for a long, long time

80 years this December? And for unwisely choosing a partner, rather than any political infelicities. (Though there was an undercurrent of that, and he wound up spending much of WW2 in aristocratic exile in the Bahamas, which was…

BenWilson

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 14:26:13 +1200

Well it's yet another one of those battles over who's king. Oh so important when you have a monarchy.

I doubt Charles III will get beheaded. But he might well either be personally asked to abdicate, deposed by Act of Parliament or force a republic into play.

He could. Or…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 13:18:45 +1200

You are quite correct. I don't know how Bosworth Field lodged itself in my head.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 13:15:06 +1200

Well, the dwindling number of constitutional monarchies (I exclude quasi-absolute monarchies like Thailand) do follow the approach that the sovereign is required to have no opinion (and/or, as in the case of Sweden, an explicit exclusion from taking a constitutional role).

I doubt Charles III will get beheaded. But he…

Australopithecus

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 13:10:46 +1200

I think you meant Battle of Naseby, Bosworth Field got us Tudors. I wish I could credit my NZ state school education, but I just used te interwebs.

BenWilson

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:44:25 +1200

I don’t think there’s much of an appetite to revisit this.

I'm not so sure. It's a game they are very careful how they play, sure. But there's not going to be any monarchs losing their heads in this day and age, for starters. And Charles, at least, has been…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:28:39 +1200

The royals might not learn much at their public schools (private tutor in the case of her Maj) but they do study British history.

It's almost 400 years since the Battle of Bosworth Field settled the question of parliamentary sovereignty and got the first King Charles' head lopped. I don't…

BenWilson

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 12:13:55 +1200

Interesting stuff. It's a pity the article doesn't say whether she did or didn't veto the particular acts listed.

John Farrell

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 11:34:49 +1200

Interesting, William. I was born in Gateshead, but left there to come here when I was 4.

william blake

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:18:35 +1200

Sunderland was my old home town in blighty and the NY Times seems to miss a couple of important points as well as contradicting its own stats. The EU take of the 'small' sum of £8b compared to its largesse, to the community,of £450m over six years, is obviously disproportionate…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:17:32 +1200

I expect it's for similar reasons that the elected leadership isn't. Too cowardly, too worried about their own position.

The furtively entitled nature of the Black Spider Memos appears to support that view.

BenWilson

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 10:06:13 +1200

I expect it's for similar reasons that the elected leadership isn't. Too cowardly, too worried about their own position. Which is bizarre in both cases, because the main reasons given for the existence of the monarch and the non-proportional democracy by representatives is that they're so wonderfully decisive and practical…

John Farrell

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 08:26:19 +1200

A leader? We'll have to see what the focus groups say, and do some polling.

BenWilson

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 07:58:16 +1200

I guess what I'm saying here is that there never was a more appropriate time for a proper representative leader to rise above the madness and lay out a sensible path. I'm personally not that much of a fan of representative democracy because I think the leadership can too easily…

BenWilson

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 07:32:27 +1200

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 07:20:01 +1200

truly Poe-faced?
I note that the National Party Drama Society are rehearsing their play ‘The Masque of the Red Death’ at the Chateau on the Park in Chchch at dusk this evening (July 1st)
The story takes place at the castellated abbey of the “happy and dauntless and…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 06:47:55 +1200

Now we know what happens when a 'car-chasing dog' catches one...
– Boris Johnson has backed off running for the Tory leader/Prime Minister position
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/81646189/Boris-Johnson-I-have-decided-not-to-run-for-British-Prime-Minister
that saves the world from the possibility of two muppet lookalikes running two former great powers – UK avoids a BJ, but the USA may…

Jim Cathcart

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 02:01:24 +1200

Oh god, don’t make me read that Pilger column again. It’s incoherent.

Bit of a stretch. I think his comments about the "patrician class" are right on the money.

Tom Semmens

Fri, 01 Jul 2016 01:23:30 +1200

I see ways of ignoring the referendum are being seriously discussed by the liberal elites and the capitalist class. If they succeed, they’ll ensure that the disempowered 52% who voted for Brexit will know the only way their voice will be heard will be to vote UKIP and send Nigel…

Rich Lock

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 20:03:15 +1200

I’m not sure I buy Monbiot’s ability to see the future on this. Not do I buy that it’s “bad democracy”. It’s way worse democracy to roll over and accept disaster just because of a single poll result. AFAIK it’s still a representative democracy, and the referendum is non binding.…

Rich Lock

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 19:48:35 +1200

core deep-green ideology (that we should give up all modern advances and live in darkened caves eating kale)

Ridiculous strawman

To a point. Although he did publish a book a couple of years back which argued for the re-wilding large tracts of the UK (wolves and otters and bears, oh…

Tom Johnson

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 18:39:16 +1200

Immigration should involve an adventure,not a run from frypan to fire, surely the elephant in the room is that a vast majority of nations are failing to deliver on the social front, hence the constant abandonment of homelands.

Joe Wylie

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 18:04:34 +1200

Closer to me In Grayndler (Sydney) the left-wing rump of the ALP is represented in an even more green-left seat by Albanese but he seems fairly safe simply because he is actually green-left himself.

Albanese certainly used to impress as one of the sharper pieces of cutlery in Labor's kitchen…

Moz

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:27:50 +1200

This piece on Corbyn seems fair to me, basically saying that he seems good in many ways, but he's had 9 months and done very little – he still seems like that guy who wanders on stage, blinks at the lights, looks around and says "oh, everyone else has left…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:20:29 +1200

Maybe it depends on where you sit on the political spectrum. I must confess that the older I get, the more I’m leaning to the left. Yanis Varoufakis is one of my heroes, which is probably why I can relate to Corbyn’s politics in the same way as I do…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:15:58 +1200

a PR company run by Tony Blair’s former advisors and his former spin doctor Alastair Campbell, best remembered for helping to draw up the “Dodgy Dossier” which invented the WMDs Blair and Bush used to justify the Iraq war.
I'll always remember Campbell as (after leaving Blair's outfit under controversy,…

andin

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:05:12 +1200

core deep-green ideology (that we should give up all modern advances and live in darkened caves eating kale)
Ridiculous strawman

Alfie

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 14:59:18 +1200

I like what Corbyn says and stands up for. But after reading Enter Left in the NYer, I’ve changed my mind about whether he should lead the party. Good man, wrong job.

The New Yorker story you link to certainly provides a reasonable portrait of Corbyn but I can't see…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 14:25:18 +1200

I find it kinda ironic Monbiot going on about democracy when his core deep-green ideology (that we should give up all modern advances and live in darkened caves eating kale) is infinitely unlikely to ever be approved of by an electorate (unless they'd reached the point where caves and kale…

BenWilson

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:48:31 +1200

Rob Stowell

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 11:27:05 +1200

I like what Corbyn says and stands up for. But after reading Enter Left in the NYer, I've changed my mind about whether he should lead the party. Good man, wrong job.

Alfie

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:41:36 +1200

Very reality-based.

Cassidy has another good piece on Why Brexit Might Not Happen at All.

“When I put my cross against leave I felt a surge as though for the first time in my life my vote did count. I had power,” Kelvin MacKenzie, the former editor of the Sun,…

Russell Brown

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:49:49 +1200

John Cassidy in the New Yorker: Sunderland and the Brexit Tragedy

Very reality-based.

Russell Brown

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:05:12 +1200

I hear you Russell. Interesting to note that Matt’s opinions are echoed in those of John Pilger’s.

Oh god, don't make me read that Pilger column again. It's incoherent.

Russell Brown

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:04:18 +1200

But is there any difference between the two?

Well, there was in Chile. (Btw, that's Caleb you're quoting, not me.)…

Rich Lock

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 05:41:28 +1200

The saddest part about Brexit to me is how easily people seem to have given up. The fight is not yet over and Remain seems worth fighting for. Take it to the bitter end if you ever had the courage of your convictions. This thing could still be rescued. I…

BenWilson

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:31:01 +1200

I mean FFS you practically have the entire political establishment on your side. For once. Use the damned thing, make it easy for them to at least have another poll.

BenWilson

Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:27:09 +1200

Jim Cathcart

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 21:21:25 +1200

I hear you Russell. Interesting to note that Matt's opinions are echoed in those of John Pilger's.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/John-Pilger-Why-the-British-Said-No-to-Europe-20160625-0022.html

Alfie

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 12:49:02 +1200

But is there any difference between the two? At the moment I'm reading Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine which is…

Russell Brown

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:49:34 +1200

I think this is the fundamental flaw in the neo-lib agenda. It uses the mathematical equivalent of homeopathy to justify focusing these decisions down to a point that our social system struggles to cope with – it ignores the social imperatives.

It’s like the branding around ‘realism’ – people kinda…

Russell Brown

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:44:40 +1200

I suggest that you read Matt Ellis ‘The Left should celebrate Brexit: UK just kicked Neoliberalism in the nuts’ to understand the reality.

Hmmm. There’s a lot of stating of self-evidence here:

Extant political expressions of racist views are in no small part due to the economic hardship and falling…

Adam H

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:25:03 +1200

I like your phrase. I guess I've become cynical. The 'best' ones seem to be very good at manipulating and…

Adam H

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:12:17 +1200

My dirty secret is that I would probably have voted Brexit for that very reason. But I don’t think the majority of the 52% did. I suspect it was much more basic than that: a sense of manipulation perhaps.

Adam H

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 08:09:26 +1200

I think Shearer would be horrified to hear himself described as like Corbyn.

It was more that I was trying to point out we see these situations where there is a clear distinction: I would pick a humanitarian worker over a currency trader any day, simply because of the innate…

Caleb D'Anvers

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 04:53:58 +1200

I fear that we have been insufficiently careful to distinguish “neoliberal global establishment” from “amoral robber barons who will use outright fascists as shock troops if it furthers their interests.” Murdoch, who, along with Richard Desmond, is as responsible for this result as anyone, has now come out saying how…

Jim Cathcart

Wed, 29 Jun 2016 03:48:57 +1200

__ We will one day view neo-liberal dogma as a fantasy invented by social scientists masquerading as mathematicians. Marx was an economist, and it is another bunch who have invented their own nonsense. This is at the root of our problems, because it fundamentally fails to consider us as a…

Ben Austin

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 23:52:38 +1200

Indeed. But the point is, Labour is all about getting out the vote. That's what it is good at. It needs loads of active members to do that. Obviously there is a lot more to a party and indeed needs to be to reach all the other people/voters. However in…

Rich Lock

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 22:39:08 +1200

Career politician is meant to be disparaging, usually. Although it shouldn't be in all cases.

If it's intended to mean something like: 'puts self-advancement ahead of other considerations, including those of his/her electorate and the greater good, and is fully willing to compromise own principles to do so', then it's…

Ben Austin

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 21:44:15 +1200

It seems to be that within the Labour membership there is a strong difference of opinion about what it takes to win elections. It isn't just about having a new leader who wants to bring Labour back to a more socialist path. It is about how elections are fought on…

Ben Austin

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 21:43:03 +1200

Career politician is meant to be disparaging, usually. Although it shouldn't be in all cases.

A common refrain from non Corbyn Labour members to the new Corbyn era members is "how many leaflets did you deliver?" and from what little I've seen in London, there is some truth to that.…

NoFace

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:47:13 +1200

Rich Lock

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 20:11:38 +1200

Corbyn is a career politician

Your definition of this being...?

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 19:28:54 +1200

At least they admit it in Britain…
... and enquire as to whether one knows one's place!

Saying there is “some constituency” that doesn’t support him is a massive understatement. At the last count I think over 40 of his MPs resigned from shadow cabinet/spokesperson roles.
One gets the impression…

martinb

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 18:17:13 +1200

I tend to think of authenticity in NZ as Clark, Goff, McCully and English. Long serving politicians who represent their communities and are pretty much what it says on the box.

martinb

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 17:13:02 +1200

Are you suggesting that Shearer has the same consistent record of principles that Corbyn has?

Shearer was happy to be associated with the Third Way and Blair.

Corbyn is a career politician- Shearer is certainly not that.

I think Shearer would be horrified to hear himself described as like Corbyn.

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:20:03 +1200

The UK would analyse its census categories by occupation using the NRS system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade. This reflects one aspect of social class but not the caste-like system that pervades England – e.g. a working class FX trader would be in AB, while a posh gardener would be in C2D.

NZ collects…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:14:07 +1200

Because we don't have social class in NZ?
At least they admit it in Britain...

NZ does have a class system, but not in the formalised British sense. What we have in NZ is more like the informal Nouveau Riche-driven class structures of America and other former New World colonies.…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:12:37 +1200

My experience of UK education is that while it was (at the time) functional, it was also a process designed to perpetuate social division and produce an ignorant and unthinking populace.

My year was the first to enjoy comprehensive education, but at least in the south-east, state schools were mostly…

Adam H

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 14:59:55 +1200

If I come across a bit pro-Corbyn it's really meant to be more of a "look if you wanted anti-establishment there was an alternative"...

He could have quite easily played that up. I suspect he was trying not to appear out of kilter with the main messaging from the Stay…

David Hood

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 14:51:30 +1200

I don't deny we (an often nebulous) social class in NZ. But it is not a reporting category in primary statistics about every region of the country.

Jeremy Andrew

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 14:49:03 +1200

Because we don't have social class in NZ? At least they admit it in Britain...

Because everyone knows their place well enough to be trusted to self-report it?

Nick Russell

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 14:30:26 +1200

As I am familiar with the New Zealand census, I was looking through the British census for variables to look at. One of the reported categories is “social class” which just made me go wut?

Because we don't have social class in NZ?
At least they admit it in Britain...

Nick Russell

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 14:28:42 +1200

The problem for Corbyn now is that he lacked authenticity on Brexit. He has been a long term critic of the EU, campaigned half-heartedly for the Remain camp and then came out immediately after the poll demanding that Britain invoke article 50 immediately. No wonder some in his own party…

David Hood

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:26:19 +1200

As I am familiar with the New Zealand census, I was looking through the British census for variables to look at. One of the reported categories is "social class" which just made me go wut?

Public Address

Tue, 28 Jun 2016 13:26:19 +1200

Discussion from blog post.