Public Address | Cafe | Polity: So who exactly placed conditions on that flag meeting?

Steve Barnes

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 15:14:19 +1200

There were also vernacular versions, e.g.

I'm out of work and on the dole
Go stick your red flag up your hole

and

So shove your red flag up your arse
I've got the foreman's job at last

"Iv'e got the PM's job, I like it,
I'll put your State…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 15:06:49 +1200

People not bothering to read previous comments and links is one of the more irritating features of internet discussions ...

One of them, yes.

simon g

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 15:05:14 +1200

Hmm. People not bothering to read previous comments and links is one of the more irritating features of internet discussions ...

Joe Wylie

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 14:59:16 +1200

The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead,
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts' blood dyed its ev'ry fold.

Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 14:50:11 +1200

Flag referendum: Red Peak design to be added as fifth option – John Key
"In the end, I'm not wanting to be the one that stands in the way of people having some choice."
Yeah, erm, right, it was Labours fault...
The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded…

simon g

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 14:38:03 +1200

You type too fast, sir .. ;)

simon g

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 14:37:21 +1200

So "Red Peak" will be added to the ballot, if parliamentary manoeuvres this afternoon pan out as expected. Credit to the Greens.

Good outcome, regardless of the avoidably messy way it got there.

(I don't think it will win the first referendum, but still, that's now a decision for the…

Jeremy Andrew

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 14:36:24 +1200

So, Red Peak will be on the ballot. But the status quo still won't be.
I wonder if this is something the Greens and Labour came up with together, or is everyone trying to out-statesman each other?

Dave Patrick

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 09:52:43 +1200

Is the now-quoted “mentally deficient” actually accurate? Or simply someone paraphrasing brutally?

That's paraphrasing – I can't remember the exact words, but it was something along the lines of "now we know who aren't quite as bright as the rest of us"

chris

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 14:34:32 +1200

Last updated 7 hours 44 mins after this Newstalk ZB article was published, Matthew Hooton is another political commentator who failed to accurately present Labour’s proposed referendum rejig:

The pretext for the subsequent disagreement was around the order of the referendum questions. National thought an alternative should be selected first,…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 09:46:57 +1200

This was after [Key] insulted the half of the audience who wanted to keep the existing flag by calling them not as bright as the ones who wanted to change.

Is the now-quoted "mentally deficient" actually accurate? Or simply someone paraphrasing brutally?

chris

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 14:52:35 +1200

Mediaworks

*NZME.

chris

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 13:45:21 +1200

Well spotted. That took 30 minutes tops. Now if only you worked for the Herald they’d have been able to spin the proposal by spinning the actual proposal with a day and a half to spare.

linger

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 13:31:02 +1200

I mostly agree with Labour’s proposal, but there’s still one error in the form shown: granted, they are pretty much indistinguishable, but the Lockwood fern designs shouldn’t have exactly the same name!

chris

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 13:01:12 +1200

Labour’s proposed referendum

It seems clear enough to me, in the accompanying article hosted by Mediaworks’ Newstalk ZB on the 15th September 2015 Andrew Little is quoted as saying:

if the answer was no, then the money set aside for the 2nd referendum won’t be spent.

If it’s yes, then…

linger

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 10:52:06 +1200

One could claim that the poll methodology is flawed, e.g. self-selection bias. But that’s not what Key says. Instead he’s quoted as saying:
it’s not a terribly sophisticated question because I could produce polls that look close enough to that, when it’s a yes or no questionIs this just an…

David Hood

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 10:19:00 +1200

Thinking about it, flagaghasted might be a better way of spelling it.

chris

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 09:54:19 +1200

Heh, I enjoyed the Herald’s choice of photo on the front page for this article. Polls!? Who need’s em.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nABeCdau3I

David Hood

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 09:46:55 +1200

With the recent poll, are the public flaggergasted.

chris

Sun, 20 Sept 2015 13:39:43 +1200

‘they’ wanted you!

I can’t pretend we’re not flattered.

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 20 Sept 2015 11:42:56 +1200

hark the heraldry angles…
Here’s another flag that’ll need to change perhaps?

do we want our police to be so 'over frondly’…

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 20 Sept 2015 09:16:12 +1200

Chinese and US cuisine.
Clean of the fetishists’ finger prints
it’ll do.

Mwaahahahahaaa!
Exactly where 'they' wanted you!
Dry gulched settlers, acclimatising
to our new masters' cuisine...

;- )

chris

Sun, 20 Sept 2015 04:54:35 +1200

Same guy yeah? Co-submitter John Ansell, the former marketing manager for the ACT party? That’s as clear an flag raiser as any of the slippery slope this country has teetered over. Our good fortune of getting a morsel like that in MSM only contingent on the fact his submission didn’t…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sat, 19 Sept 2015 10:15:50 +1200

Grant McLachlan is a former Parliamentary researcher and a National Party campaign director.

Grant McLachlan: The flag process is not New Zealand Idol
Everything the National Party has done around the flag debate is dodgy

chris

Sat, 19 Sept 2015 05:50:06 +1200

*correction – Labour's referendum allows for voters to number their preferences regardless of whether they vote yes or no.

chris

Sat, 19 Sept 2015 04:54:01 +1200

Observation 1: For anyone with an interest in retaining the current flag only John Key’s submission guarantees fuel for roasting marshmallows.

Observation 2: John Key’s is the least environmentally friendly option.

chris

Fri, 18 Sept 2015 21:06:24 +1200

um, so yeah, I did eventually make it through that baffling section on MMP to:

The offer was clearly mischievous; the Government does not need Labour's votes to add Red Peak to the referendum. But it tested Mr Little's agility.

Incensed I then lodged a complaint relating to the misrepresentation…

chris

Fri, 18 Sept 2015 18:41:47 +1200

What if we’d had the “do you want to change?” referendum already and decided on change, and then the panel had presented these same four alternatives to choose from? There might have been rioting in the streets.

I see a similar line has been taken in this today’s Labour slamming…

Andre

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 17:23:38 +1200

The debate beyond that around the red peak flag's inclusion has been fairly non-existent. People aren't engaged – a third of potential voters don't turn up to a general election for example. Those I know who don't vote just think it doesn't include them anyway – the wealthy elite will…

Alex Coleman

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 15:45:56 +1200

People wave it at sports events, it’s on the gravestones of soldiers overseas, people will be excited about it and want to own it (with an aside about how New Zealanders are patriotic but don’t show it, but if we had a nice new flag with a fern on it,…

chris

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 13:00:07 +1200

That’s the beauty of STV,

If you’re selecting a rugby team.

When you’ve got two choices that are basically identical to anyone who is colour blind in that area of the spectrum, in a nation where 200,000 people suffer from colour deficiency, when the number signing a petition for inclusion…

Katharine Moody

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 12:36:15 +1200

Why am I not surprised at all. He's an FX dealer – diplomacy wasn't part of the JD.

Dave Patrick

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 12:26:28 +1200

I was at an event last night where the Prime Minister spoke – he was supposed to have 3 minutes. His first 3 minutes was filled with making jokes about the speed with which Australia replaces Prime Ministers, and how he'd visited the sheep in Saudi Arabia and they were…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 11:40:04 +1200

New Zealand Flag Referendums Bill — In Committee

[Sitting date: 29 July 2015].
A veritable treasure trove of humour, anecdote trivia and more...
On the use of Fax machines for remote voting...
Hon TREVOR MALLARD (Labour—Hutt South): Mr Chairperson—

Jacinda Ardern : What is that?

Hon TREVOR MALLARD…

linger

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 10:36:15 +1200

clawing his way up a ponytail

Sacha

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 10:14:57 +1200

half mast

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 10:14:10 +1200

At last – a hero for our times – Blue Boy
setting hearts aflutter
and standards plummeting!

Sacha

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 09:59:47 +1200

hey but at least nobody's talking about TPP, saudi sheep, milk prices, unemployment, etc #jobdone

Pete Sime

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 09:14:57 +1200

There should just be a single referendum with the 6 flags. Include the current one and Red Peak with the other four. People wanting to retain the flag can rank it as number one. That's the beauty of STV, it's an instant runoff.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 08:24:42 +1200

Rescue Me...
...an unsalvageable mess.
"...an unfathomable and unsalvageable mess!"

I still can't see why all the was money spent on the 'top 40 posters' when we had no input on choice.
Then further compounded by the cowed committee serving up three (3!!) 'versions' of Key's oft voiced preference, rather…

linger

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 07:07:54 +1200

It’s an illustration of what sort of debacle asking “would you like to change?” first could result in.Of course, that counterfactual results from retaining the same problematic step that gave us the current selection: the undemocratic (and far from transparent) narrowing of choices by committee. If, after a successful vote…

Alex Coleman

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 04:08:22 +1200

I think the first referendum shouldn't have any flags at all on it. Just ask if we should change. Make it clear that the question is about investigating change.

If yes, *then* have the panel and start discussing alternatives. I don;t really care about the saving money from the referendums.…

chris

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 01:35:15 +1200

I hear you, and no offence intended SteveH, it’s certainly not personal. This process, this constant media barrage, our flim flam PM, the combined total emotional investment demanded, the waste of paper, time, school hours, Government sessions, fuel, electricity, news segments, crayons, felt tip pens and paint….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEx_ByPS9xQ

SteveH

Thu, 17 Sept 2015 00:36:10 +1200

I don’t see anyone proposing we also include the cost of building a time machine.

It's an illustration of what sort of debacle asking "would you like to change?" first could result in. I didn't think the point was that hard to understand.

chris

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 23:12:18 +1200

Not to over complicate the issue. All things considered as of right now.

What if we’d had the “do you want to change?” referendum already and decided on change, and then the panel had presented these same four alternatives to choose from?

I don’t see anyone proposing we also include…

SteveH

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 22:46:36 +1200

If the first debate was ‘should we change the flag’, instead of ‘what should we maybe change it too?’, we would be debating whether or not the current flag works, and what flags ought to do, does our flag do it, and what sort of flag would do it better.…

SteveH

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 22:30:05 +1200

The media words today have been "stoush", "squabble", "stand-off" ... which serves Key's (revised) purpose. That's what most voters will see and hear.

Perhaps. But if you take his claim at face value then it sounds like weakness to me, and I'm sure to a lot of others. He's saying…

Alex Coleman

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 21:21:04 +1200

I think the whole debate has become completely stuffed, mostly because of the process, which shaped the debate in weird ways.

The order of the questions matter in ways that go beyond 'fairness', and fairness is stupid anyway. The order they are in now introduces a cognitive bias towards the…

simon g

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 20:57:34 +1200

I thought Key wanted a flag change?

He did – to his own choice. Polls suggest that won't happen, so now he wants to cut his political losses. To share the "blame" around.

The media words today have been "stoush", "squabble", "stand-off" ... which serves Key's (revised) purpose. That's what…

linger

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 20:48:20 +1200

outright $26m spend on political game-playing by the governmentWhether or not the flag changes, the process benefits National – not least, by free opinion polling about how to market itself in an image NZers identify with. And it didn’t exactly hurt their brand consciousness that the design submission phase was…

Katharine Moody

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 20:39:16 +1200

The absolute worst thing Andrew Little could do now is meet with Key at all.

It is always a bad idea to meet behind closed doors with someone who outright lies.

Give him a very wide berth and just let him finish himself off all on his own.

If we're…

izogi

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 20:10:42 +1200

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 20:07:58 +1200

I'd thought a law change wasn't needed, as has been pointed out multiple times?A law change is needed to add Red Peak as a fifth option. A law change is not needed to swap Red Peak for one of the other options. Adding Red Peak as a fifth option is…

izogi

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 19:35:29 +1200

Of course, National and its hangers-on can easily change the law to do this all by themselves. Why they won’t is a mystery to me.

I'd thought a law change wasn't needed, as has been pointed out multiple times? In any case, if Cabinet added a flag (or replaced one)…

Peter Elliott

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 19:27:50 +1200

"That move is as brazen as it is dishonest. Key obviously thinks New Zealanders, and the New Zealand media, are gullible fools."

Quod erat demonstrandum

SteveH

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 19:11:29 +1200

I thought Key wanted a flag change? This sort of bullshit will just turn more people off the process.

Public Address

Wed, 16 Sept 2015 19:11:29 +1200

Discussion from blog post.