Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: SIBs: The reality of "return-based outcomes" https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Hilary Stace https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359819#post359819 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359819#post359819 Sun, 01 May 2016 20:38:48 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359816#post359816 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359816#post359816 Sun, 01 May 2016 15:13:16 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359815#post359815 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359815#post359815 Oh, there are packers and pickers wanted to work for Progressive Enterprises, night shift, 12 hours on for four days, two days off, ahem, well, if there is nothing else, I may just have to settle for it, as an assessment has now found me “fit for work”, I hear.… ]]> Sun, 01 May 2016 13:47:01 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359814#post359814 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359814#post359814 Oh indeed, Rosemary, I am just sensing extreme paranoia, I am fearing a relapse into a serious anxiety disorder now, I will swiftly see my GP, and ask to be referred straight to Workwise, to get the treatment I need.

"Work will set you free", was a popular slogan in…

]]> Sun, 01 May 2016 13:42:05 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359813#post359813 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359813#post359813 Jobs of choice, yeah right, get out the next bottle of Tui (I do not really call it beer by the way, it is too yukky).

Is there any job going as Prime Minister, as of late?

Oh, I may just settle for a job as CEO of MSD, perhaps…

]]> Sun, 01 May 2016 13:29:44 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359811#post359811 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359811#post359811 And I notice when trying Google now, the internet has been “cleansed” and “purged” from controversial info

Are we perhaps a tad paranoid Marc C? Meself was searching for a document on the Google the other night...gone it is into cyber oblivion...

I also checked out the Nation segment on…

]]> Sun, 01 May 2016 12:01:49 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359810#post359810 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359810#post359810 Oh, Dr Bratt forgot to delete this one from the web, which still shows up:
http://www.gpcme.co.nz/pdf/BO%2012%20830am%20David%20Bratt%20Benefit%20were%20a%20Drug%20V2.pdf

Some info our activist friends in the UK still make available, which the "experts" have not managed to shut down yet:
http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/08/28/unums-unaccepatable-influence-in-the-formulation-of-uk-dwp-atos-disability-assessment-regime-letter-to-president-of-the-faculty-of-occupational-medicine-royal-college-of-physicians/

Why has New Zealand's opposition not made more of all this scandalous…

]]> Sun, 01 May 2016 11:50:38 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359809#post359809 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359809#post359809 Sun, 01 May 2016 11:32:24 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359807#post359807 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359807#post359807 Sun, 01 May 2016 11:12:40 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359805#post359805 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359805#post359805 Oh, I love this...

http://www.health.govt.nz/sites/default/files/images/our-work/social-bonds/concept-01_wise_grp-29_jun_2015.jpg

If the image doesn't show...can someone please fix it...a picture worth a thousand words and all that...

]]> Sun, 01 May 2016 10:42:48 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359804#post359804 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=359804#post359804 Social Bonds get the Insight treatment on Natrad this morning.

Audio here.

]]> Sun, 01 May 2016 08:40:30 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=348278#post348278 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=348278#post348278 Fri, 18 Sept 2015 12:47:59 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=346989#post346989 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=346989#post346989 Fostering First in Germany has closed down, it says, when clicking the link for it on ‘keyassets’ website (under ‘Global foster care through Core Assets’):
http://www.ffd.de/

I wonder what reason was behind that. Visitors to that site in Germany are told to go to the state foster care agency.

As…

]]> Tue, 01 Sept 2015 00:22:53 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=346932#post346932 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=346932#post346932 And here comes the private sector to sort out the failings in CYFs.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/282834/key-private-sector-involvement-in-cyf-possible

and...

http://www.keyassets.co.nz/
http://www.keyassets.co.nz/about-key-assets/about-core-assets-group/

]]> Mon, 31 Aug 2015 12:06:00 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=346909#post346909 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=346909#post346909 Return based outcomes, and the discussion about social bonds, perhaps some may be interested in this recent OIA response from the MoH (transferred to them by MSD). It has been obtained from a trusted source. We thought they may have gone ahead further.


So they are still in the procurement…

]]> Sun, 30 Aug 2015 22:40:04 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342990#post342990 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342990#post342990 Thu, 09 Jul 2015 21:28:00 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342989#post342989 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342989#post342989 as some of you predicted from the outset

Please....allow me just one weeny wee I TOLD YOU SO!

This outfit is based in Hammytown....has a huge building, all the glitz. Their advertising makes my skin crawl, quite frankly....puts me in mind of some US religious organisation.

All the incentive I…

]]> Thu, 09 Jul 2015 21:10:27 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342846#post342846 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342846#post342846 Tue, 07 Jul 2015 08:34:16 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342841#post342841 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342841#post342841 Mon, 06 Jul 2015 22:03:44 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342838#post342838 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342838#post342838 Mon, 06 Jul 2015 21:53:08 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342837#post342837 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342837#post342837 Mon, 06 Jul 2015 21:48:05 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342836#post342836 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342836#post342836 NZ's first social bond experiment

Sounds like a prime example of fracketeeering.

]]> Mon, 06 Jul 2015 21:34:57 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342834#post342834 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=342834#post342834 social bond experiment involves mental health provider Wise Group as some of you predicted from the outset, with the ANZ Bank as ‘intermediary’ for private investors. ]]> Mon, 06 Jul 2015 21:13:03 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341748#post341748 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341748#post341748 Obvious answer: A bloody depressed former Labour voter.

Labour historically suck at the polls.

We are a very conservative bunch politically,currently preyed on by a recessive economy which never delivers quite enough to feel settled yet still delivers great profits.

]]> Mon, 08 Jun 2015 22:12:38 +1200 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341735#post341735 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341735#post341735 Mon, 08 Jun 2015 11:24:14 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341733#post341733 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341733#post341733 Obvious answer: A bloody depressed former Labour voter.

Good guess, but not what I had in mind. What I had in mind was more a 1-word term for a wolf in sheep’s clothing, or a so-called ‘compassionate conservative’, who pretends to be centre-ground but is still a Ruthenasian at heart.…

]]> Mon, 08 Jun 2015 10:54:31 +1200 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341729#post341729 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341729#post341729 red on the outside and blue on the insideObvious answer: A bloody depressed former Labour voter. ]]> Mon, 08 Jun 2015 04:25:56 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341723#post341723 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341723#post341723 Gallery journo finally writes about what govt has been quietly engineering in social services for years, and why Paula Bennett may be politically crucial.

If a watermelon is green on the outside and red on the inside, then what’s red on the outside and blue on the inside? Whatever the…

]]> Sun, 07 Jun 2015 20:15:43 +1200 Hilary Stace https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341718#post341718 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341718#post341718 Sun, 07 Jun 2015 13:36:17 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341717#post341717 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341717#post341717 Gallery journo finally writes about what govt has been quietly engineering in social services for years, and why Paula Bennett may be politically crucial.

One of the major successes so far of the Key Government has been its ability to reframe that debate in a way that has carried the…

]]> Sun, 07 Jun 2015 12:39:20 +1200 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341709#post341709 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341709#post341709 Sat, 06 Jun 2015 23:49:36 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341708#post341708 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341708#post341708 Yes, but to get “justice”, we need money, or pro bono favourable lawyers:
http://eveningreport.nz/2015/03/24/frances-joychild-qc-on-the-fading-star-of-the-rule-of-law/

The battle has never been harder for decades now, to get any justice, any justice at all, in little ol NZ.

But the bastards, if they lose in the Courts, will just change the bloody law...as…

]]> Sat, 06 Jun 2015 23:41:04 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341707#post341707 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341707#post341707 I think it’s more that they’re saying they have no interest in “how”

or who.
both matter.

]]> Sat, 06 Jun 2015 21:42:39 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341704#post341704 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341704#post341704 Yes, but to get "justice", we need money, or pro bono favourable lawyers:
http://eveningreport.nz/2015/03/24/frances-joychild-qc-on-the-fading-star-of-the-rule-of-law/

The battle has never been harder for decades now, to get any justice, any justice at all, in little ol NZ.

]]> Sat, 06 Jun 2015 20:40:17 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341701#post341701 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341701#post341701 Sat, 06 Jun 2015 18:15:20 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341700#post341700 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341700#post341700 http://staffblogs.le.ac.uk/management/2015/02/11/anti-social-finance/ ]]> Sat, 06 Jun 2015 18:08:37 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341699#post341699 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341699#post341699 Very interesting, in particular the quote:

“There is a clue to this mindset in the 2013 cabinet paper mentioned above. It says “government agencies are now focusing on what is being achieved, not how services are delivered.”

So they're saying "focusing on what's being achieved" like it's a bad thing?

]]> Sat, 06 Jun 2015 17:53:35 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341697#post341697 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341697#post341697 a spade. ]]> Sat, 06 Jun 2015 17:20:53 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341654#post341654 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341654#post341654 But, but, it the Code!

Perhaps we should be slamming the thing down till the dust rises....

Call their bluff.

]]> Fri, 05 Jun 2015 17:29:50 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341652#post341652 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341652#post341652 Fri, 05 Jun 2015 17:13:35 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341651#post341651 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341651#post341651 http://www.wisegroup.co.nz/

http://www.wisegroup.se/in-english/

http://www.thewisegroup.co.uk/content/

]]> Fri, 05 Jun 2015 17:12:56 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341649#post341649 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341649#post341649 Yes, and they should read well, but nowhere in their website or newsletter do they mention...http://www.thewisegroup.co.uk/content/

It could be a complete coincidence, no relation at all.

But I am a suspicious old biddy....and this outfit tweaks my antennae...

]]> Fri, 05 Jun 2015 16:53:00 +1200 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341647#post341647 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341647#post341647 Rosemary's Workwise piece reads well though the evidence base referred to is not referenced and there is no verifiable evidence provided. I don't doubt that, for many people, having regular, satisfying work with decent pay supports their mental health. The proposed SIB is unlikely to provide that.
In fact the…

]]> Fri, 05 Jun 2015 16:34:50 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341645#post341645 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341645#post341645 Fri, 05 Jun 2015 16:09:29 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341640#post341640 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341640#post341640 ‘successful pilot scheme’

http://www.workwise.org.nz/about-us/EBSE ???

]]> Fri, 05 Jun 2015 15:18:18 +1200 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341637#post341637 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341637#post341637 Fri, 05 Jun 2015 14:17:29 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341634#post341634 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341634#post341634 fits their ideology that it doesn’t matter who or how.

unfortunately when you're dealing with people rather than baked beans, they do matter.

]]> Fri, 05 Jun 2015 14:07:46 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341629#post341629 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341629#post341629 Very interesting, in particular the quote:

"There is a clue to this mindset in the 2013 cabinet paper mentioned above. It says “government agencies are now focusing on what is being achieved, not how services are delivered.”

]]> Fri, 05 Jun 2015 13:38:40 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341627#post341627 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341627#post341627 Interesting post by NewsTalk ZB's James Robins, includes the small matter of the 'successful pilot scheme' that the govt were trumpeting when they promoted SIBs for mental health, but which they refuse to release any information about. ]]> Fri, 05 Jun 2015 13:24:35 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341578#post341578 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341578#post341578 I cannot fight the impression that one sick Mr Tully was a victim of the system,

You know Marc C, Peter and I sat in our wee Bus listening to the breaking news, the unfolding story....thinking just that.

The brave Sue Bradford spoke up...

He would have been one of…

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 20:37:11 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341575#post341575 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341575#post341575 I dare ask the question; who is the victim in all this? I cannot fight the impression that one sick Mr Tully was a victim of the system, who though overstepped the line and did some terrible things.

I have seen WINZ take action with my own eyes, being there…

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 20:16:17 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341574#post341574 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341574#post341574 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 20:10:42 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341553#post341553 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341553#post341553 Exactly. All Jonathan Coleman has said about the potential for cherry picking (detailed in the De Boni article as a dangerous disaster in the North Carolina mental health service 'experiment') is "Don't worry that won't happen. "
Strangely, I don't feel reassured.

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 16:20:22 +1200 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341551#post341551 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341551#post341551 Whatever happens, I hope it doesn’t take a David Malcolm Gray or James Eagan Holmes to force a rethink when the SIB model goes pear-shaped.


There, I fixed it.
We've already had attacks on WINZ offices, with the response being to increase security rather than countenance addressing the reasons.

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 15:08:44 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341544#post341544 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341544#post341544 Potential 'investors' pricking their ears.

"It's important to look at innovation in this space for social services support in the community," said Liz Gibbs, chief executive of Philanthropy New Zealand, whose members pump about $2.6 billion into local communities each year.

"Philanthropy is such a diverse sector – some of our…

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 13:22:16 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341538#post341538 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341538#post341538 Whatever happens, I hope it doesn’t take a David Malcolm Gray or James Eagan Holmes to force a rethink if the SIB model goes pear-shaped.

AP: Gunman says he tried calling crisis line before shootings

__James Holmes lingered outside a suburban Denver movie theater for a moment or two, thinking…

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 11:56:59 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341537#post341537 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341537#post341537 And we should join the dots with this;

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1506/S00028/wikileaks-tisa-dump-exposes-nzs-extreme-position.htm

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 11:44:45 +1200 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341532#post341532 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341532#post341532 We have a long history of slavishly copying the U.K.'s mistakes, usually after they've been recognised as mistakes in the U.K. Here we go again. Unless it can be stopped. I won't hold my breath.
On another tack, I miss our poetic wordsmith and hope he's okay.

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 11:06:18 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341530#post341530 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341530#post341530 Excellent column on the topic by Dita De Boni in the Herald.

She raises a good question: where are the results that say this works? Not the ideological assumptions; the data. Where are the successful instances? It's worth noting that the British pilot was closed down by the UK government last…

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 10:51:40 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341526#post341526 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341526#post341526 Since this 'initiative' is going to be under the auspices of the Misery Of Health...maybe we should re acquaint ourselves with the Code of Rights...

http://www.hdc.org.nz/the-act--code/the-code-of-rights/the-code-(full)

cos I'm sure, somewhere in there, is a bit about consent, and choice, and not being experimented on,

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 09:15:14 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341525#post341525 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341525#post341525 Thu, 04 Jun 2015 09:12:17 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341522#post341522 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341522#post341522 In the meantime...here's the link to Kyle's website....

http://psychotherapy.org.nz/

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 07:52:12 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341519#post341519 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341519#post341519 WINZ should be the tiny organisation it use to be. 1% unemployment is the goal of a true democracy. Nation building requires an expansion of work, a connected society.

No one ever signed off at a stability based on a 5% -6% no job zone.They have given up on a…

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 00:57:46 +1200 Marc C https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341518#post341518 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341518#post341518 The ideology behind all this drive to get disabled into work is based on a twisted interpretation of the so-called “bio psychosocial model”, which such “experts” as Mansel Aylward and others in the UK interpreted and tried to apply in a rather “perverted” way:

http://nzsocialjusticeblog2013.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/medical-and-work-capability-assessments-based-on-the-controversial-bio-psycho-social-model/

What they tried there, and…

]]> Thu, 04 Jun 2015 00:46:57 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341516#post341516 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341516#post341516 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 23:23:41 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341515#post341515 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341515#post341515 We hold our “trouble” citizens in pens.

Penning a person is a big deal. I would not want that initiative encouraged . But the private sector makes money out of pens.

Dumb politics, but ironically very politically correct for present majority pakeha boy politics ( the real p.c) because it…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 23:22:03 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341514#post341514 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341514#post341514 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 23:20:33 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341512#post341512 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341512#post341512 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 22:56:37 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341511#post341511 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341511#post341511 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 22:54:51 +1200 Kyle MacDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341510#post341510 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341510#post341510 http://www.actionstation.org.nz/mentalhealth ]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 22:54:37 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341509#post341509 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341509#post341509 Eric Crampton of the NZ Initiative

what the Business Roundtable morphed into
#neolibnonsense

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 22:53:21 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341507#post341507 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341507#post341507 And I'll put this...http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hpWNMumOLK4J:www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/social_bonds_cabinet_paper_redactedv1.pdf+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

here as well.

Sacha...we have run out of gigbytes(or whatever they're called), so I'll watch the You Tube clip later...is there a transcript, perhaps?

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 21:25:57 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341506#post341506 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341506#post341506 via University of Canterbury politics lecturer Bronwyn Hayward, this US clip explores a couple of moral dimensions of governments contracting services to profit-driven businesses. Amazing presenter too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbBv2ZGC2VI

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 21:20:24 +1200 John Palethorpe https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341505#post341505 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341505#post341505 If you want a really corporatist indicator, Felix Marwick's tweet: https://twitter.com/felixmarwick/status/605843517944926209

"Health Minister says no legislation needed for social bonds policy. Initiative can be signed off by cabinet."

It's not a cabinet, it's a bloody boardroom.

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 21:07:51 +1200 Alastair Jamieson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341504#post341504 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341504#post341504 Here though, the purchaser and the consumer of services are not the same.

So SIB's would be like the Wilson Parking version of mental health services.

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 21:03:31 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341503#post341503 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341503#post341503 its telling that in all interviews to date i havent heard one govt MP mention the outcomes for the actual people involved – all comments from govt have been focused solely on the $

It's immensely othering: "We'll stop these fringe-dwellers costing us all so much money."

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 20:57:46 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341501#post341501 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341501#post341501 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 20:34:56 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341499#post341499 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341499#post341499 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 19:50:10 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341496#post341496 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341496#post341496 Eric Crampton of the NZ Initiative has been vocal expressing his concern that SIBs here will fail because of excessive monitoring and bureacracy.

Eric Crampton is a sneering apologist for third world child sweatshops. And if you disagree with him, you're smug, so there. Seriously, what's wrong with us that…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 19:39:18 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341495#post341495 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341495#post341495 We are their wet dream of a fertile experimental ground, prepared with grateful assistance from their personally trained minion, John Key

We were a wet dream under the "no risk" buy off of the eighties and we are moisting up now. We like being fucked it seems.

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 19:28:28 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341493#post341493 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341493#post341493 Eric Crampton of the NZ Initiative has been vocal expressing his concern that SIBs here will fail because of excessive monitoring and bureacracy.

Diddums....

He should not be too concerned.

The SIB is a ramped up version of what the disabled have had to endure for the past decade or…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 19:20:01 +1200 Stephen Judd https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341490#post341490 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341490#post341490 Eric Crampton of the NZ Initiative has been vocal expressing his concern that SIBs here will fail because of excessive monitoring and bureacracy.

I've been thinking about this, and the above made me realise. In a normal market, service users evaluate quality and change suppliers themselves. I don't like the…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 19:00:38 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341489#post341489 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341489#post341489 Financial institutions such as J.P. Morgan Chase and Morgan Stanley have created impact investing units within their corporate structure, while Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs have led on investing in social impact bonds.

http://www.rockefellerfoundation.org/blog/innovations-in-finance-for-social-impact/

And of course we all know how their last collective “innovation” in finance worked…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 18:55:27 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341483#post341483 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341483#post341483 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 18:36:25 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341482#post341482 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341482#post341482 Physically protesting is actually quite dangerous and then you get ridiculed.

So? Living like this is dangerous, and as for ridicule....

Giving a fuck is not enough....

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 18:26:41 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341480#post341480 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341480#post341480 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 18:18:36 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341478#post341478 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341478#post341478 There was even a protest

What will it take to get the NZ disability community to protest???

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 17:57:03 +1200 Hilary Stace https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341477#post341477 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341477#post341477 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 17:47:27 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341473#post341473 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341473#post341473 And there’s another assumption which unpacks as nasty – that we (collectively as a society) could provide much better services to the vulnerable, but we won’t unless there’s dollar in it.

You nailed it.

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 17:25:01 +1200 Euan Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341472#post341472 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341472#post341472 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 17:24:21 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341471#post341471 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341471#post341471 Of course the market knows best.

Look who are the successful. Look at our Leaders.

Are they disabled? Are they mentally ill?

No they are not.

They are hale, healthy and rich.

Because they played the market and won.

So there.

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 17:23:35 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341470#post341470 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341470#post341470 It's all about $ for sure: you can bet the 'outcomes' will involve 'saving the taxpayer money' not saving people's lives.
And there's another assumption which unpacks as nasty – that we (collectively as a society) could provide much better services to the vulnerable, but we won't unless there's dollar…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 17:21:47 +1200 andin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341468#post341468 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341468#post341468 That’s not precisely what they’ve said,
No it isnt, because they (the pricks who dreamt this up) hide behind carefully crafted press release's and trot out stock phrases when appearing in the media.
And these said pricks have stolen this nasty quirk from those they deride, yes, new agers who…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 17:08:18 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341455#post341455 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341455#post341455 It's like they don't understand true capitalism.

The profit incentive is risk driven. The illnesses that have plagued our society from the get go are not solvable by making them subject to the dice rolling of the investment market.

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 15:47:57 +1200 Lilith __ https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341448#post341448 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341448#post341448 Wed, 03 Jun 2015 15:34:46 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341447#post341447 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341447#post341447 However, in order to get those at the top to be interested in those at the bottom, it’s necessary to offer them some more of what they already have: Money

So well written. Money baby.It's a drug.

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 15:33:39 +1200 fraser munro https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341446#post341446 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341446#post341446 its telling that in all interviews to date i havent heard one govt MP mention the outcomes for the actual people involved – all comments from govt have been focused solely on the $

When the issue of mental health is only discussed in financial risk to the govt you…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 15:31:55 +1200 Jack Harrison https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341443#post341443 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341443#post341443 Thank you for writing this. It is actually big news.

The idea that society is a money making machine on every facet of its operations is stunning, cold and basically sick.

The person who devised this idea suffers from some form of cold detachment from the reality that surrounds them.…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 15:25:38 +1200 Idiot Savant https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341442#post341442 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341442#post341442 Or at least not be funded without somebody, somewhere making some money out of it.

Welcome to modern corporatist government: where the private sector lobbies for the creation of statutory monopolies where they can insert themselves and leech rent. The existence of which then provides them with the funds to…

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 15:13:35 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341441#post341441 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-sibs-the-reality-of-return-based/?p=341441#post341441 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Wed, 03 Jun 2015 15:13:35 +1200