I doubt that the true costs of their aim to cut our emissions will look good right in the middle of the deepest recession in modern history. Not to the people who voted for the right anyway.

If NZ was to collide head on with the American Clean Energy & Security…

Actually I was speaking metaphorically.

I think everyone got that – or we'd both be awaiting crucifixion.

Opinion polls seem to support your contention that our nation thinks baby seals are indeed delicious.

Actually I was speaking metaphorically. My real contention was that there are a lot of people in this nation who love to see greenies getting a serve. And celebrities, for that matter. Key's 'advice'…

I doubt that the true costs of their aim to cut our emissions will look good right in the middle of the deepest recession in modern history

As if we have some kind of choice here not to do anything.

The huge spectre of Greenpeace standing behind Keisha is reason enough to treat her as a hostile witness right from the get-go.

Because god forbid the PM should engage with representatives of environmental organisations about climate change.

The huge spectre of Greenpeace standing behind Keisha is reason enough to treat her as a hostile witness right from the get-go.

And National/Act's do-nothing position has the backing of wealthy business interests – which I guess makes Key a "hostile witness" too. No one in any conversation is free…

Kong, what is it exactly that makes you presume Keisha Castle-Hughes doesn't know what she's talking about? How would you know unless you're willing to engage?

To be quite honest, there's no reason to engage even if she does know heaps about it. You'd probably just use a different brush…

They seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that when the country voted labour out, they willingly offered the national caucus carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.

If people did not want an authoritarian daddy-knows-best style of government then they shouldn't have voted for Natonal, Act, etc…

It's rather like telling a crap karaoke performer not to give up their day job. It doesn't mean anything more sinister than "Your singing is crap".

Kong, what is it exactly that makes you presume Keisha Castle-Hughes doesn't know what she's talking about? How would you know unless you're willing…

Yesterday I gave evidence to a select committee, along with lots of other people.

I expect some people there, even lots, disagreed with my points. However, in fronting up a…

That was the point...Did you miss it?

Not at all. It was loud and clear. It was probably partially heartfelt too, I'm glad you got it off your chest. Now lets all sit around and hold hands whilst completely disagreeing with each other, and discuss something neither of us knows…

although you're pretty quick with the get-stuffed when it's you doing it

That was the point...Did you miss it?

Just because a politician shows respect to their fellow citizens and electors does plainly not mean that they have to agree with them.

Hey kong, get stuffed mate. If citizens want to express a reasoned opinion on something that does not suddenly turn them into a politician to be bullied and denigrated by our elected representatives.

Nor does it grant them immunity, particularly when they are choosing to cross swords.

You seem to…

if she can't take that politics is rough.

Hey kong, get stuffed mate. If citizens want to express a reasoned opinion on something that does not suddenly turn them into a politician to be bullied and denigrated by our elected representatives.

You seem to forget, MPs and PMs have been…

So three cheers for First Class Chris – the smarter Carter. Good on ya, Phil Heatley – more plumb landlord than slum landlord. And hats off to Blinglish, the Dipton dipper. You've shown us the way. You're putting us on the realpolitik…

He responded by telling her not to get involved in politics.

Which is a polite way of saying "I think you're talking crap and I don't want to respond". It's not like he said that he was going to use his position as head of Intelligence to make sure she…

Seems to me that's pretty much what he thinks and he did. Not in so many words.

No he didn't. He responded by telling her not to get involved in politics. I'm not sure why he thought it was OK to tell a citizen they shouldn't get involved.

I don't mind if Key says he thinks she's talking rubbish, or even if he chooses not to respond.

Seems to me that's pretty much what he thinks and he did. Not in so many words. He underestimated the power of celebrity, though. In that way he was foolish, like…

The right to question is not the same as the right to be heard.

I don't mind if Key says he thinks she's talking rubbish, or even if he chooses not to respond.

The PM telling people they shouldn't express their opinions, that's not good.

I would expect the same response to just about any layperson asking a public question of the Prime Minister.

I have a problem with that. As a citizen I always reserve the right to question my PM publicly.

Which is exactly the same as "Shut up and go away".

If that's what you hear, then there's no discussion to be had here. I don't hear it that way. I hear a reasonably fair call that Keisha has no particular credentials to be demanding the time of the Prime…

He did not say "Shut up and go away". He said she should stick to acting. Which is probably true, if she can't take that politics is rough. But I doubt Keisha is anywhere near as hurt as everyone else is on her…

Politicians say crap like that 100 times a day.

Not quite so blatantly and publicly they don't. And whether or not they do is irrelevant as to its acceptability. Any politician who thinks that "Shut up and go away" is a reasonable response to a reasonably-stated position needs a healthy…

In actual fact the government seems to…

Guess Key heard someone. Seems to be modus operandi now.

It was either that or take on the Number Three I guess. And we all know what fanatics the Three's are.

There's actually a reasonable correlation between a Minister having (often limited) specialist expertise and being a disaster as a result of second guessing the professionals. See…

The real "corporate" stuff comes with the area of sponsorship, which some other NGOs use and Greenpeace notably doesn't. Not saying other aspects of their management aren't corporatised.

(As far as I care, pay MPs whatever they want; it isn't much money in absolute terms,…

BTW, Russell let's tease out a real stupid false equivalence. A consumer boycott does not equal "crushing free speech".

In general, no. Consumers can vote how they like with their dollars, although the hysteria manufactured to drive some boycotts can be a bit alarming.

And when those people crushed all…

The most obvious one is throwing around a figure of "24%" gross increase in emissions since 1990 (without mentioning the big offsetting decrease through tree-panting). He follows up by claiming that a 40% net reduction target…

Fact is, Key's audience-pleasing snark was patronising, rude and completely unnecessary. No amount of drawing extravagant false equivalence changes that.

Russell: If you want to talk about extravagant false equivalences, perhaps some folks might want to take a deep breath and acknowledge Key did nothing like "beating up on a…

bastard still owes me $14 for Mission Impossible III

The first two films weren't a clue that III could be naff?

Reminds me of a proverb involving a fool and his money. :)

Craig, I believe the Dixie Chicks were bodily threatened in seedy clubs and truckstops all over the south. Probly the closest you could get to a Repub fatwa. Pass me some ribs.

I wasn't aware that the Dixie Chicks spent a lot of time playing truckstops, but its nice to…

Tom Cruise: He's Blowing Me Right Now

And Tom Cruise can suck my dick

Jesus, I'm all for bagging celebrities, and especially Tom Cruise for that matter- bastard still owes me $14 for Mission Impossible III – but where did that come from. Although it does have a certain ring to it.

__Tom Cruise can suck my…

How is a mass movement by the people a coup?

More importantly, how can overthrowing an illegitimate government be a coup?

Sorry, but unless you're elected in free, fair and frequent elections, you have no claim to power, and no-one should shed any tears when you are overthrown in turn.

And for the record, I don't really give a rat's arse what right-wing celebs have to say about public policy either. Way above your pay grade folks.

And Tom Cruise can suck my dick before I pay any attention to his ill-informed, if not outright dangerous, opinions on psychotherapy or…

It's not quite Shut Up And Sing, but still not all that far off either.

Ah, yes... The Dixie Chicks fearlessly speaking truth to power about how their dissent was being ruthlessly crushed Tonight! on Larry King. Salman Rushdie ring any bells, ladies? Dalton fucking Trumbo? Theo van Gogh? The…

I wonder what Spot is up to now that Richard Hammond has taken his job.

Spot's not well

PM stomps on citizen for questioning his policies

We've got enough theatre going on here to keep Keisha gainfully employed until she's competing with Judi D., Maggie S. and Helen Mirren for work. You delicate faux-chivalrous petals might want to look at some of the evangelical poo thrown at that…

High energy levels and active minds but naturally cautious, and grow more so as they age. When feeling threatened, and/or uncomfortable, it will usually resort to aggressiveness

"Please give generously to IPENZ so they can afford the high priced PR good-for-nothing doctors have been taking for granted for nearly a century"

How much doctors get paid is only loosely connected with facts. Engineers have done more to improve people's longevity than doctors over the last century, but they haven't done so well at the PR game.

New Zealand Kennel Club we approve

Great. So now I'm inbred with bad hips.

When asked what he thought of the call by Niuean Premier Toke Talagi for the people of Fiji to rise up against the military regime, he said:

"You can't have a good coup and a…

Shay, you're tuned in. I think the other side to a dog-whistle is that dogs are surprised that humans can't hear it.

Woof.

I'm in touch with my inner canine.

attempting to engage with the political process, and he's saying "Shut up and go away, because you don't know anything.

Quite right. Like I said further up the thread, PM slagging off citizen in public for disagreeing with his policy = bad look.

Actor has opinion on subject not directly…

Hang on a minute – people are quite justified in being skeptical of a celebrity's opinion on a topic in which that they are obviously not a recognised expert.

Yes, they are. But Key is absolutely no more of an expert, and quite possibly less of one given how thoroughly…

There's definitely a dog-whistle aspect to it, which many of us aren't tuned to hear.

Hang on a minute – people are quite justified in being skeptical of a celebrity's opinion on a topic in which that they are obviously not a recognised expert. Just the same as we should…

She's feisty.

Labour needs people like Keisha, I wonder if she's interested?. On the same node (my recognising political talent node) I have good feelings about David Shearer. He sent shivers down my spine with that Maiden Speech, there was an underlying passionate quiver in his voice.
He ain't no…

I was under the impression that the NZ Government was therefore interested in what the public had to say. Is the PM all of a sudden NOT interested in public input?

Nicely put.

It's a bad look. First English gives rise to the __do as I say, not as I…

How about a small retainer, say $35,000 plus WORK related expences. That way at least they would have to do some work.

Actually, almost all MPs do work hard. I'm damned if I'd do that job. And certainly not for $35k.

how does one effectively value the politicians

By voting for them. Or not, as the case may be.

Let me put it another way – how do we decide how much to pay them when no-one thinks politicians do anything of value.

indexing to the salaries of a particular sector,…

But back to John's weird personal attack, i think it's derogatory to state that it's not okay for New Zealanders to stand up and take interest in the world around them.Climate change is a global issue that affects our country as a whole. Before being anything else in…

I'll apply Craig's argument here – Thats a conclusion I can arrive at on my own. I don't need the Prime Minister to tell me how to think, I would rather he used his time in more productive ways.

The real question is how do you decide how much we should pay politicians when no one thinks they have any need of their services.

Apart from fanatical libertarians, and anarchists, I think most people accept that politicians have some utility. It may be as the butt of jokes, or…

And he put it in his speech, which does make it worse. Politicians can often be forgiven for unfortunate remarks, but it appears Key actually meant to do it.

Well, if the press hasn't caused him to regret this statement, I suspect this question (question 10 of today's Questions for…

That's Simon Barnett's job.

Ha, excellent.

Their value to society (let's assume we have a roughly similar interpretation of what does and does not have social value) isn't why doctors are paid well – after all a plastic surgeon who only does boob jobs…

That's Simon Barnett's job.

PM stomps on citizen for questioning his policies – it wasn't a great look

And he put it in his speech, which does make it worse. Politicians can often be forgiven for unfortunate remarks, but it appears Key actually meant to do it.

Given his own history of prevarication and…

I have to agree that this is nonsense. The people who get the most money are the people who make the most money for their masters, be they be sports clubs, Media companies or money speculators.

Tom, Shay, the point is over that way *points into the distance*.

I said…

And I personally think it would be nice if Labour's chief whip actually stood up and said "we dropped the ball on this one" rather than saying "move along, nothing to see here."

I fully agree. But will listen to the RNZ interview too.

Politicians, though, are not uniquely skilled…

However, one of the reasons for paying people more is recognition of the value they bring to society.

I have to agree that this is nonsense. The people who get the most money are the people who make the most money for their masters, be they be sports clubs, Media…

Indeed. And they don't need the Prime Minister telling them to shut up either.

PM stomps on citizen for questioning his policies – it wasn't a great look. And we do have to do our part in reducing carbon emissions. Having said that, I do wish these celebrity lobbyists would…

Why wasn't a similar fact-based regime used for Bill English?

Blimey am I the only dimwit who had to look up the b-word.

You are not alone. I made the mistake of looking it up on Google and clicking the second link, rather than just going to the Wiki. I'll never get that image of Kiwiblog out of my mind.…

I'm with whoever said that we need some sort of structure that defines a family home and a secondary residence

Trevor has beaten me to the post and he has posted the form used by Parliamentary Services to determine an MP's 'Primary Place of Residence.'

(Not used for Ministers that…

That's a good point. Public respect, at least as measured by those surveys, is not at all closely tied to income.

That's an interesting point. Fire fighters have been top of the "Most Trusted Profession in New Zealand" surveys for several years, and the vast majority of them aren't paid…

However, one of the reasons for paying people more is recognition of the value they bring to society.

Nonsense. Rugby players are paid more than doctors. Shortland St actors are paid more than nurses and teachers. Traders playing the markets earn more than all of the above.

By all means…

I always find it amusing that when justifying their pay MPs say but of course we would earn more if we were out in the workplace

Yeah, right.

Yes, there are a limited number of high-flying lawyers and corporate whores (John Key and Richard Worth among them) who take a…

Those people, in this country, who accumulate vast wealth seem to think it is analogous to being Royalty.

From what I've seen, I'd agree with this. I've seen something similar in young guys who can play certain guitar licks. But I'm not inclined to think that either group has much…

Doctors would also argue they should be well paid because they have to undergo very long stretches of training (and incur considerable costs in doing so), meet very high qualification standards, and constantly upskill to maintain professional standards. Don't think they're wrong either.

I think what they do makes some…

That's a good point. Public respect, at least as measured by those surveys, is not at all closely tied to income.

I'll try again.
Those people, in this country, who accumulate vast wealth seem to think it is analogous to being Royalty.
Do you not see that?.

In our fair land it is a substitute for class.
This doesn't seem to answer the question. It seems to indicate only what you think other people think.

OK. Maybe I should have put "Yes, because" before the statement ironically referring to our, alleged, egalitarian society. so I suppose I should…

I'd say probably not — nurses aren't as well-paid as doctors, but they're equally, if not more so, respected by the community if surverys are anything to go by.

That's a good point. Public respect, at least as measured by those surveys, is not at all closely tied to income.

We pay doctors well because there is nothing more important to most people than the health of themselves and their loved-ones.

Doctors would also argue they should be well paid because they have to undergo very long stretches of training (and incur considerable costs in doing so), meet very high…

Does someone with more money have more of your respect? if so, why?

In our fair land it is a substitute for class.

This doesn't seem to answer the question. It seems to indicate only what you think other people think.

Hughes wasn't "missing the point", he was responding to a specific question on the issue on Morning Report. It was their angle, not his

I was thinking more of "This guy was convicted of grotesque abuse of his position as an MP, and this is what the media is getting…

We pay doctors well because there is nothing more important to most people than the health of themselves and their loved-ones. Similarly corporate lawyers are well-paid as a recognition of how much money can be saved or wasted based on their competence and skill.

My point is that more money…

Sophie: Tosh. Castle-Hughes (and Lucy Lawless and Robyn Malcom and Cliff Curtis) are perfectly entitled to opine to anyone who cares to listen on whatever subject takes their fancy.

Indeed. And they don't need the Prime Minister telling them to shut up either.

Key was well out of line with his comment, and you know it.

Matthew: Since you have privileged access to my mind, I'll leave you to conduct both side of this conversation.

Meanwhile, am I the only person who thinks this kind of misses the point to an almost farcical degree.

Hughes wasn't "missing the point", he was responding to a specific question on the issue on Morning Report. It was their angle, not his

I actually thought Hughes did well in…

I noticed it particularly in the discussions comparing those with medical qualifications to those who occupy positions in parliament. I'd probably be inclinded to regard those who act directly to save lives, or…

Celebrity doesn't confer authority.

Neither does being a reformed merchant banker, Craig. Key was well out of line with his comment, and you know it.

Well, I think Castle-Hughes sums up rather nicely just how The National Party handles most of our nations issues so far.

"To come out and say : 'Keisha, stick to acting' – it kind of, I feel as though it really contradicts.
"Okay, yes we really care what the New…

"To come out and say : 'Keisha, stick to acting' – it kind of, I feel as though it really contradicts.
"Okay, yes we really care what the New…

Personally, I'll be ready to "move on" when someone bothers asking — let alone answering — some serious questions about how we're going to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Er... by having laws? That are in place, and have been applied?

Er... the man has been expelled by the party, not re-elected, found guilty. When were you planning to move on, out of interest?

Personally, I'll be ready to "move on" when someone bothers asking — let alone answering — some serious questions about how we're going to make sure this…

Meanwhile, just to lighten the mood a bit. Here's a chune for Bill and Darren Hughes, who opined that it's time to "move on' from Philip Field:

Er... the man has been expelled by the party, not re-elected, found guilty. When were you planning to move on, out of interest?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-O3vT26Ns

And I'll exercise my right of reply:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ITZBBV8Syg

OK you don't often hear this from the left but it does get said

Oh yes you do, Raymond, and I think it's utter crap no matter where it comes from. As I've said before, the world is full of people who, for all kinds of reasons, change their careers…

You might want to sit down, but I kind of agree with you. :) But I'd note those 'filthy oligarchs' aren't exactly getting a lot of sympathy from shareholders — or anyone else — when they're generously renumerating themselves, while laying off workers, watching their shares corpse, and going…

OK you don't often hear this from the left but it does get said

What I would like to see as well as Tom's…

In terms of what MP's get paid, well it is…

peaceful and orderly change of government following a free, fair and credible election

Amen.

The arguments continue about the arguments used in the campaign and the things done, whether they were above board. And the continuing arguments are part of free speech. But amen, a free and fair election.

So…

OMG, Craig and I agree. Can I take something for it?

Oh, you'll get over it in no time, Phil. :) But seriously, whether you liked the outcome, we had a peaceful and orderly change of government following a free, fair and credible election. Its too easy to take that…

If you want to know what God thinks about money, just look at the people He gives it to.

And also Rita Rudner:

Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose…

Treasury, OTOH, has a rather handy table in every Budget on who pays tax and how much?.

BTW, if David Slack is reading this, a nice quiz on income distribution in NZ akin to your Treaty of Waitangi quiz (with extra bonus questions on how much peopl eon the dole…

A CEO of a large corporate isn't spending taxpayer dollars.

Unless the corporate is an SOE. Or it receives a subsidy or implicit guarantee from the taxpayer (like the banks, for instance). Even if the company's wholly in private hands, it's still probably spending the public's cash, extracted through a…

Unfortunately Stats NZ don't publish income statistics at any greater degree of granularity than a huge band of above (from memory) $1080/week.

Treasury, OTOH, has a rather handy table in every Budget on who pays tax and how much?. Which tells us that even ordinary MPs (base salary $131K +…

Tim McKenzie / Punchscan

interesting. Hadn't previously heard of it. Not convinced yet. Will read more.

The issue is, people have to have confidence in voting systems.

I am reasonably au fait with the NZ electoral process and systems. It is pretty sound.

Postal voting for local Councils passes the same tests.

It doesn't pass the "secret ballot" test.

I have emailed Don to discuss offline, and have said I am happy to discuss online. His choice,…

I've stood up as a scutineer several times

the security and confidentiality of ballots is taken incredibly seriously

OMG, Craig and I agree. Can I take something for it?

Seriously, I encourage everyone to act as a scrutineer for the party/candidate of their choice. It is about participating in democracy.

I'd like to know a little more about MPs renting properties of each other. Do they manage to save the taxpayer money or is there some kind of double up of payments going on?

I believe, though I haven't researched it, that it works like this:

1. You are an…

However to me it kind of says that by them using that image it says that our family endorses their cause…

Otherwise a person should be entitled to privacy in relation to their financial and legal affairs, so long as the person stays within the law.

but as far as I understand, its only convention and the presence of witnesses that removes the actual ability to check who someone voted for... if no-one was watching you can easily figure out who people voted for.

Not just convention – there's also the fact that it would be…

Also, would like to reiterate that the presumption of this article is that the "best" people for the job are already highly paid.

4. PAYMENT OF MEMBERS, thus enabling an honest tradesman, working man, or other person, to serve a constituency, when taken from his…

Personally, I'd like to know that in future nobody is renting out perfectly habitable property to anyone, while at the same time the taxpayer is paying for (or heavily subsidizing) another.

Though, in such cases, I'm tickled by the idea that any accommodation allowance you'd otherwise receive would be subject…

Most people I know set up trusts for asset protection purposes. If all your assets are in a…

Deputy Prime Minister Bill English has decided to pay back part of his ministerial housing allowance to Ministerial Services, saying that as Finance Minister he had to lead by example.

Only part?

He lives in Wellington. It's his normal place of residence, whatever he tells the voters of Southland (for…

I'd like to know a little more about MPs renting properties of each other. Do they manage to save the taxpayer money or is there some kind of double up of payments going on?

Personally, I'd like to know that in future nobody is renting out perfectly habitable property to…

I mind MPs wriggling their finances around like worms

I'd like to know a little more about MPs renting properties of each other. Do they manage to save the taxpayer money or is there some kind of double up of payments going on?

Maybe MSD have the information.

Postal voting for local Councils passes the same tests.

It doesn't pass the "secret ballot" test.

We have a voting system for Parliament that is both secret and allows dual votes to be found and removed.

Are you sure its really secret by design, or just secret by convention?

I'm completely happy to accept that nobody does actually match up the voting form numbers and the…

Don't ever give away your secret ballot, no matter how attractive internet/postal voting looks.

We have a voting system for Parliament that is both secret and allows dual votes to be found and removed. It can be ubject to vigorous scrutiny by parties and stands up to scrutiny. It has…

I mind MPs wriggling their finances

One of the things that bureaucrats – Ministerial Services, IIRC< but it could have been another group – did each year was to remind Ministers about two months ahead of time that the deadline for the declarations for the Register of Ministers Interests was looming, and that Ministers could 'take the opportunity to rearrange their finances'.

Yes, they went to that length to encourage the practice.

The fact is that no amount of detail will change the perception that in some way I am gaining a bigger allowance than other members of Parliament.

But the DomPost words it slightly differently:

But he said today he accepted there was a perception that…

I think Adam Hunt's reminder about the Chartists is well made. We certainly do not want to return to the situation where only men with money can afford to be members of parliament.

That's a straw man argument though. I haven't heard (on here at least, I haven't turned over…

Don't ever give away your secret ballot, no matter how attractive internet/postal voting looks.

""The fact is that no amount of detail will change the perception that in some way I am gaining a bigger allowance than other members of Parliament."

Er, in the way where you're getting $1000/week and they're getting $460/week? That way? Not ringing…

in essence what your family is doing is trying to avoid death duties

With respect I think that's rubbish, trusts are used for many things. For example to ensure that your child's gold digging spouse cannot get hold of some family property

Not everyone who set's up a trust is…

I bled once.

Did I lead?

Did I bollocks.

I come to PAS for my average daily intake of poetry these days.

Kyle – in essence what your family is doing is trying to avoid death duties – which is OK so long as it's legal

Paul,

Not an expert but death duties not payable in NZ anymore – zero rated in 1992 and abolished in 1999. There have been attempts since…

No, I mean they could have figured out that English was going to get hit a couple of months ago, and he could have gone back down to the half allowance that he'll be getting from now on, back then.

The logical time to do that would have been just…

the extent, and depth, of the coverage of the Field, Bain and Weatherston trials?

Anyone done a compare and contrast of the coverage of the Bain and Weatherston trials and just about any other news story in the past year?

I bled once.

Did I lead?

Did I bollocks.

Thank you, Lars von Trier. :) But seriously, anyone done a compare and contrast on the extent, and depth, of the coverage of the Field, Bain and Weatherston trials?

Did I lead?

Did I bollocks.

so hopefully now they can move on to the political jiggery pokery that could actually have an effect on our lives.

Well, its a shame Philip Field's trial didn't involve the excruciatingly detailed murder and mutilation of a young woman (or him slaughtering his whole dysfunctional family) — because I'd…