Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: On the upland road

UglyTruth

Sat, 06 Sept 2014 19:13:23 +1200

New Zealand needs moral leadership right now. That’s not some religion-driven statement about telling others what to do lest it offend someone’s god, rather that we need leaders who uphold the law, are seen to do themselves what they tell others to do and do not abuse third parties for…

Kathy Fryer

Fri, 05 Sept 2014 10:14:57 +1200

if Dotcom cancelled his ‘Big reveal’ on Sept 15,

Well hopefully this big reveal sticks to politics and isn't a personal hit.

Angela Hart

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 10:49:29 +1200

How far and how low do the dirty tricks go? Setting out to destroy schools and Principal's and thus the kids just stinks.

It fits the established pattern of getting your own way. We've seen it with Canterbury, with Christchurch, with the SuperCity, with Funded Family Care, with National Standards…

Ianmac

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 10:38:01 +1200

Thanks Allan. Passed Kelvin Smythe's column on to others.
Kelvin's opening quote: ‘Other minister’s offices began feeding information to Slater, such as Gillon Carruthers, press secretary for Education Minister Anne Tolley. ”I got those stats out of Tolley’s office, seems Gillon has worked out that feeding the whale might help,”…

Angela Hart

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 10:14:27 +1200

Or as part of the general clean-up which must happen if the thinking populace is to have confidence in its government, sort out the OIA so that it operates in the way it was intended to do. Any government can do what this one has been doing unless things are…

Sacha

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 09:39:27 +1200

There's a subtle difference between contractors and agencies that they're exploiting. I reckon Ombudsman will find in your favour – eventually. Or we could change the govt to one who will be more open about such details.

Angela Hart

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 09:37:32 +1200

Thanks Izogi, that may work for me in the future, but not for the particular information I want now, which is NASC generated.
My point is that implementation of policy is currently concealed by the assertion that NASCs are not subject to the OIA. It's an abuse of the OIA…

izogi

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 09:23:07 +1200

I occasionally ask the Department of Conservation for information about various things. Not usually controversial. One thing I’ve found, disappointingly, is that I’ll often get a much more helpful response if I simply go through regular channels (like sending an email) and ask the question. Legally that’s still an OIA,…

Angela Hart

Thu, 04 Sept 2014 00:03:29 +1200

"That’s right, the framers of the OIA thought that information should be made increasingly available to people, and tied this to good governance and enhancing the respect for the law. Seems we have the opposite going on right now."

I've made a few OIA requests this year, attempting to find…

Angela Hart

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 23:40:37 +1200

Potentially more deeply disconcerting WO and Ministerial collusion in Education sector, if true this is vile and reprehensible behaviour.

Rotten behaviour, if true. Full, wide ranging enquiry needed.

Angela Hart

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 23:32:42 +1200

What an interesting approach on Campbell Live to actually get to hear the leaders of all the minor parties

It was actually worth watching and I was sufficiently motivated to go to the online continuation. I've stopped bothering with talk over sessions, they are too frustrating, just make me cross.…

Allan Moyle

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 22:09:26 +1200

Potentially more deeply disconcerting WO and Ministerial collusion in Education sector, if true this is vile and reprehensible behaviour.
The Ministry of Education and WhaleOil – an Introduction

Ianmac

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 19:33:07 +1200

Shifting to online 7:30 to 8

izogi

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 19:29:44 +1200

What an interesting approach on Campbell Live to actually get to hear the leaders of all the minor parties

Yes, very much so.

izogi

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 19:27:36 +1200

Dotcom … not a Kiwi, but a resident so absolutely has a right to vote. [--snip--] Instead, go ahead and try to build something, if you really intend to be/saty here. The IMP seems to me to be more destructive than building.

Sure, Kim DotCom has his interest, yet it's…

Ianmac

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 19:24:57 +1200

What an interesting approach on Campbell Live to actually get to hear the leaders of all the minor parties in spite of there being 8 to speak. Refreshing after the shout-fest. 7- 8pm

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 18:15:44 +1200

I’d rather he didn’t try to subvert our democratic process
Oh I see, anybody that says anything that might show National, or especially John Key, in a bad light is subverting the democratic process. Anyone that disagrees with Team Key are subverting the democratic process.
So, anyone that does that…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 18:00:29 +1200

Neither Hager nor Slater nor Cunliffe nor Key nor Winston (of course) nor Dotcom are blameless.
We can be fairly sure two of this list conspired to bring down their political opponents with orchestrated campaigns of blatant lies and personal attacks, utilising, where possible, the machinery of government.
It goes…

Pharmachick

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 17:47:22 +1200

Hager … either "defender of the people" or "opportunist" – as I said earlier, I'm conflicted, but I actually have a bob each way on that one, leaning towards $1.50 on the latter, 0.50 on the former.

Slater … stated and self confessed agitator. 'Nuff said

Cunliffe … refuses to…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 17:31:38 +1200

But this is a very new low.

Eh? So what has Winston and Cunliffe done? Actually what has Hager done? What has Dotcom done?
If someone gives you information, it is entirely up to yourself what you do with it.

linger

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 17:28:36 +1200

Again, stating such a list implies equivalence. Such an implication needs to be backed up with specific examples of what you’re claiming each of these people has done regarding “manipulation of the political process”.

Please note that, for example,
choosing the timing of a message
is NOT in any way…

Pharmachick

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 17:17:23 +1200

Yeah, I feel pretty bleak too. Thanks for that. Its like NZ suddenly became Texas or something, just for an election.

As far as I'm concerned, there's a LOT of manipulating (or faux-manipulating or attempted manipulation) of the political process in this election. Neither Hager nor Slater nor Cunliffe nor…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 17:14:30 +1200

Carrick Graham is not a member of Prinz and is not subject to its code of ethics.
That makes t all fine then. Nothing to see here, move along now.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 17:04:58 +1200

I doubt that's available?
Oh, have you learnt nothing?
Everything is available!

:- )

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:58:00 +1200

Mr Hagar is not a novelist, he is a cartoon character.
It is rather tedious when your heroes turn out to be villains, it is embarrassing that people will know that you admired and honoured them and tar you with the same brush maybe. So you trivialise their wrongdoings and…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:56:03 +1200

I fear his ego is bigger than his strategic smarts .I fear this too, and I think saving your big reveal until only five days before the election is a sign you dont have those strategic smarts….
His timing may be distinctly relevant to the Election and to smartly show…

Carol Stewart

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:45:58 +1200

his spelling
Oh, if only his spelling was the worst of his faults.

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:45:35 +1200

Although the bundle has not dropped close enough to Georgina Beyer. Not much chance of Dotcom keeping her reined in methinks.

Wasn't Beyer brought into the fold a month ago by her friend Pam Corkery? Jeez.

Michael Savidge

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:26:50 +1200

Spotted doing the rounds – anyone know if it can be verified? If so it would seem he can count his dirty money ok but his spelling could use some help aktshully.

Dismal Soyanz

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:24:38 +1200

I guess you could note that he’s dropped a bundle of money on a group which mightn’t have otherwise had it.

Although the bundle has not dropped close enough to Georgina Beyer. Not much chance of Dotcom keeping her reined in methinks.

linger

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:23:55 +1200

Not to mention that voting started today.
Anyone who wants to can cast an advance vote. Locations and opening hours of advance polling stations are available on the elections.org website electorate map; zoom in to your electorate and check the box to show the relevant icons.
(Since I’m going back…

Trevor Nicholls

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:21:44 +1200

this is not the first time a small political movement has been exclusively funded by a millionaire with a checkered history and dubious motives

My recollection is that the present government were so concerned about increased sponsorship of this kind that THEY CHANGED THE LAW to facilitate it. They've got…

FletcherB

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:20:16 +1200

I fear his ego is bigger than his strategic smarts.

I fear this too, and I think saving your big reveal until only five days before the election is a sign you dont have those strategic smarts....

If you think you have election outcome changing info to share with the…

izogi

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 16:03:20 +1200

I don’t believe he will have any real influence after the election.

That's been my own impression, too, at least as far as direct influence goes. I guess you could note that he's dropped a bundle of money on a group which mightn't have otherwise had it. I'll be interested…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 15:42:58 +1200

I am, however; sincerely unsure that Mr Hager has the moral high ground in receiving hacked/stolen e-mails etc. I just don’t like the idea of criminal acts precipitating debate
I feel the public good argument is clear enough. But it tends not to work on people who say 'I won't…

simon g

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 15:35:11 +1200

Personally I'd be pleased if Dotcom cancelled his 'Big reveal' on Sept 15, and kept quiet until the election. A backlash against him is probably Key's last best hope.

I fear his ego is bigger than his strategic smarts.

Pharmachick

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 15:27:02 +1200

I was, and am, outraged.

I thought that Kim Dotcom deserved far better than having his privacy egregiously invaded by NZ police acting as stooges for the FBI. Who BTW, are supposedly an INTERNAL agency in the US (the external one is the CIA, and don't get me started -…

Dismal Soyanz

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 15:26:29 +1200

But IMHO details of who talks to whom over private e-mail, including the inevitable bragging about “take downs” or “gunning for” needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It sounds like a political equivalent of Rugby Club talk after a few ;-)

If it was only private emails…

Pharmachick

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:55:49 +1200

Hi to all,

rather than a huge number of posts I'll send a general one.

Firstly, I did not make an argument that this is about how much Mr Hager makes (oops, I'm also very sorry about the perpetuated spelling mistake of his last name). My argument was that a…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:37:57 +1200

Leave it to the professionals...
...just a stupid attempt at humour.
You wanna be more Prime Ministerial, mate,
he gets all the (hollow) laughs!

;- )

Dismal Soyanz

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:21:59 +1200

I guess. Although when the writing on the page is 48 pt font and double spaced, you wonder whether they can read at all.

Or maybe just not bothering to read.

Rob Stowell

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:11:23 +1200

Let’s disagree with each other rather than make accusations.
Sorry Pharmachick. Not an accusation, just a stupid attempt at humour.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:08:28 +1200

On one side, you have a government that helps its mates to avoid justice for stealing money from old people.

On the other, you have investigative journalism.

If you can't see the difference.

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:08:22 +1200

Seriously, you come across as a stooge.

BigPharmaChick – Carrick Graham in a chicken suit?

No. Pharmachick has an occasional commenting history and I'm pretty sure she's commenting in good faith. Let's disagree with each other rather than make accusations.

Sacha

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:06:16 +1200

long since addressed and discounted arguments

Not everybody will be on the same page.

Rob Stowell

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 14:03:47 +1200

Seriously, you come across as a stooge.
BigPharmaChick – Carrick Graham in a chicken suit?

Dismal Soyanz

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:41:20 +1200

Recycling of long since addressed and discounted arguments adds nothing to the debate. Seriously, you come across as a stooge.

Sacha

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:39:09 +1200

I think there’s a lot of stinky stuff on all sides

Feel free to provide examples to back up your reckons.

There is some glorious hair splitting in “leaking” not being “theft”.

The legal position on what counts as a defence was outlined clearly hereabouts by law professor Nicole Moreham.…

izogi

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:18:53 +1200

So many people I know on all sides of the spectrum have gone beyond angry and they’re just tired of it all now.

I’m tired of it, too. I’d rather be considering other things, but I don’t think that makes it acceptable as a consequence. It’s more like an unpleasant…

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:18:50 +1200

Which can only be taken as a threat.

This isn’t to deny the clear ethical problems displayed by Slater and DPF. But I’m not sure that a government crackdown on what has become a vital democratic forum is tha answer here.

What the Law Commission proposed was voluntary for bloggers.…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:16:05 +1200

His name is Hager
– please direct your vitriol at the right target, if you wish your views to be found easily in the public record...

Carol Stewart

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:15:07 +1200

some of it was really salacious piffle
Such as?
I also don’t like that Mr. Hagar apparently only received e-mails etc about one party.
They're the government. If they are exploiting the machinery of state to keep themselves in power, don't you think it's in the public interest to know…

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:14:51 +1200

I think the bar for public interest has to be very high Russel. While I’m maybe buying that some of this is in the public interest, some of it was really salacious piffle.

I think most of what’s the the book meets a very high bar. And not just in…

Idiot Savant

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:09:17 +1200

Meanwhile over on Pundit, Law Commissioner Wayne Mapp is saying

Can society really afford to have the blogosphere limited only by the criminal law and the law of defamation?

The Law Commission’s report into new media is increasingly looking like unfinished business.

Which can only be taken as a threat.…

Pharmachick

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 13:01:40 +1200

I think the bar for public interest has to be very high Russel. While I'm maybe buying that some of this is in the public interest, some of it was really salacious piffle. I also don't like that Mr. Hagar apparently only received e-mails etc about one party. I think…

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 12:47:48 +1200

I agree Craig. I think this post is really excellent and an eloquent attempt to put into words things a lot of us feel. However, I personally just cannot get past the fact that these e-mails were illegally hacked/stolen. Everyone lost the high ground when the hacker resorted to crime…

Pharmachick

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 12:38:34 +1200

Graham Dunster

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 12:37:49 +1200

The scary thing is that it seems that a moral way of living is going to have to come from the ground up as there is little sign of it existing in a tenable way amongst the so called leaders in most areas. Politicians, public servants, police, business heads all…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:37:08 +1200

David Slack and I discussed this yesterday on Firstline. Most of it really is just behaving decently: don’t run anything under your own name that you haven’t written, declare your interests, don’t be a hateful bully.

I'm probably on a hiding to nothing on this, but I'd add "Don't run…

Sacha

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:24:23 +1200

ah, hadn't thought that far. I'm sure it's doable.

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:15:58 +1200

Sean Hughes of the Financial Markets Authority was interviewed by Kathryn Ryan. He came across as a conscientious public servant, who had been hounded out of his job. It made me more angry than anything else I've heard in this whole business.

I've written some more on this.

linger

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 11:14:27 +1200

Media regulator I mentionedBy "who should judge", I meant, who should be on the regulatory body, and how should they be appointed, to ensure an independent judgement not subject to political or industry influence.

Chris Waugh

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:51:41 +1200

saying that it’d just be used by people to sabotage deparments’ funding by lodging gratuitous complaints.

Nice to see how much faith they have in humanity. To me that says more about the quality of this government than it does about the people of NZ.

Chris Waugh

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:50:12 +1200

People in leadership positions are expected to be at least as moral as the rest of us, and we are all expected to obey the law and for good reason.

If I may, I would like to add benevolence to the mix. Y'know, rulers making sure the ruled actually have…

Sacha

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:49:42 +1200

who should make the decisions on whether someone’s behaviour is consistent with journalism?

Media regulator I mentioned, in response to complaints I’d imagine.

And is the decision to be made on the basis of the writer’s entire body of output (applying the “innocent until proven guilty” principle to new writers),…

Sacha

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:47:50 +1200

Ta for the detail
#tagteam

linger

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:39:09 +1200

if someone is behaving like a journalist (researching, writing, checking, declaring interests, being even minimally accountable and ethical) then they qualify. Agreed, but who should make the decisions on whether someone's behaviour is consistent with journalism? And is the decision to be made on the basis of the writer's entire…

izogi

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:38:52 +1200

Someone suggested making the government agency being investigated liable for the costs of the investigation

Heh. You beat me to it. :P

izogi

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:34:57 +1200

We need to strengthen the OIA and remove ministers from the ability to control the manner of their departments’ releases.

I don’t think the OIA will be a complete fix for this (whatever ‘fix’ entails), but IMHO as part of strengthening the OIA, the Office of the Ombudsman also needs…

Sacha

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 10:19:32 +1200

Thanks, Colin. Yes, the OIA needs strengthening, including more realistic timeframes for release of simple information and fewer avenues for political interference. Maybe expedited timeframes for journalists too?

I’ve long wanted journalism’s legally-protected status to depend on actual practice – if someone is behaving like a journalist (researching, writing, checking,…

simon g

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:58:17 +1200

Destroying is easy, building up institutions – and…

Warren Clark

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:54:03 +1200

It is probably unworkable but I would like to see some kind of mandated disclosure of all paid for content that's run where you would normally see content ie if you are paid to run content of any kind that's not obviously an advertisement it should be labeled as such.

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:48:54 +1200

But we also have to ask how media and bloggers, (disclosure: I’m an occasional blogger) should be required to make clear their allegiances and their motivations, to prevent, or at least shine a light on, their abuse of others. Some of the core allegations of Dirty Politicsare that bloggers were…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:38:32 +1200

I actually think this has gone beyond "dirty politics" and into outright corruption.

The UK police distinguish between cops who are "bent for the job" (those who use illegal and unacceptable practices to pursue those they honestly believe to be guilty) and those who are "bent for themselves" and protect…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:37:53 +1200

Michele A'Court makes much the same plea, equally as eloquently –
I'm hoping for a groundswell of engaged citizens and politicians to bring the country to its senses – not its knees...

Kate Hannah

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:26:54 +1200

and beautiful use of High Country Weather.

Public Address

Wed, 03 Sept 2014 09:26:54 +1200

Discussion from blog post.