Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: No, there isn’t a popular uprising of the white working class against the status quo

Farmer Green

Fri, 18 Nov 2016 19:59:43 +1300

I can see political science PhD students writing their theses on this election.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/

Farmer Green

Fri, 18 Nov 2016 19:41:35 +1300

the world-view they acquire via enculturation.
A juvenile propensity towards imitation of adult behaviours ; some educational philosophies try to encourage this behaviour in order to develop more competencies . . .drawing out potentials perhaps.

Dennis Frank

Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:01:05 +1300

Indeed. I meant a participant observer. Graduated BSc in phiysics myself long ago. I often reflect on being told at college in '65 (physics intro) that the theory of the subject had been erected on the basis of metaphysics. Such intellectual honesty would be impossible nowadays due to subsequent decades…

llew40

Fri, 18 Nov 2016 10:56:46 +1300

There has been a gazillion reckons on what the lessons of Brexit and Trumpocalypse are. One of the reckons that resonated most with me was the summary that old political tropes of left v right no longer apply. It's insider v outsider, city v country, success v failure .....

Farmer Green

Fri, 18 Nov 2016 10:30:19 +1300

an observer
The quantum physicists say that pure status will be difficult to achieve , and there is still uncertainty.Total immersion while maintaining self-awareness may be a useful strategy ; possibly the best that we can do.
Sounds easy enough :-)

Dennis Frank

Thu, 17 Nov 2016 19:31:04 +1300

Experiments that introduce a foreign ethos into a cultural niche tend to end badly. Probably due to the instability inherent in complex systems: they can take off suddenly on radically different trajectories in response to a tiny stimulus.

You could argue that the natives in this cultural niche wouldn't find…

Farmer Green

Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:15:40 +1300

As a longtime student of ethology, I too would be very interested. We could do it here: just a thought :-)

Dennis Frank

Thu, 17 Nov 2016 12:16:01 +1300

Now you've got me interested. There's a part of the blogoshere where people actually conduct a rational debate? Tell us where. As an amateur sociologist, I'd be fascinated to observe the denizens of that social ecosystem doing their thing.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:16:27 +1300

2nd place

3rd

The race was for 2nd place which sadly she lost.

B Jones

Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:44:54 +1300

What makes me chippy is the extent to which educated progressive folks direct their energy into dead ends like fluoridation and anti GM and so on when there are real issues that affect real people that they could be directing their passion and advocacy and so on into.

If you're…

Rich Lock

Thu, 17 Nov 2016 05:28:46 +1300

I wasn't expecting any reader to assume it was more than partly true.

linger

Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:21:39 +1300

Dear Sir,
I must protest in the strongest possible terms the fake statistics used in the above comment: the estimate of "one trillion" is demonstrably out by at least 3 orders of magnitude.

(Tongue firmly buried in the next person's cheek, lest there be any confusion...)

Rich Lock

Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:10:56 +1300

it was a flippant surmise, not expecting any reader to assume it was more than partly true.

Given that we are currently in a situation where for every every one sober, considered summary of the current cold, methodical, peer-reviewed science as a signal, we have approximately one trillion graduates of…

Dennis Frank

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:37:59 +1300

Actually, I don't have to. I really don't care how much you misinterpret what I wrote. Writing about such chemical experimenting on consumers, I actually referred to an addling of the brain. Old-fashioned language for people unable to think clearly – nothing to do with mind control. And it was…

Sacha

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:58:59 +1300

Americans re-elected Bush after all his lying them into war

and NZers re-elected the (only) Act govt in 1987.

Sacha

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:56:37 +1300

2nd place

3rd

B Jones

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:17:57 +1300

There’s normally a list of them on the product label. In very small print, to deter consumers from reading it. Not that they need worry: just about nobody has time to do the research required to get an inkling about what function they are meant to perform.

You'll have to…

BenWilson

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:17:00 +1300

Wouldn’t it be fun to have a political party where old white guys were not allowed to stand

I'd never find out!

Farmer Green

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:33:54 +1300

Speak for yourself. A lot more empathy, balance, consideration, thought, and intelligence would not go amiss in my view, but then I’m your problem, being an OWG.
Edit: Oops . I clicked the Chomsky link. Bollocks for mine but he obviously finds a market for it.

Farmer Green

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:29:13 +1300

they aren’t noticeably harmful, right?

Obesity is good , especially for GDP

Bart Janssen

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:12:06 +1300

Noam Chomsky – he’s an old dude.

I'm not saying old white guys can't be bright/empathetic/thoughtful/considered/balanced but FFS we have enough already.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:36:00 +1300

But which comes first?

Yeah. When faced will old white guys (and a couple of old white gals) youth choose not to vote – therefore youth are disengaged.

I wonder how many younger voters decided to vote in the Auckland elections after Chloe Swarbrick entered the race for 2nd place…

Dennis Frank

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:34:33 +1300

There's normally a list of them on the product label. In very small print, to deter consumers from reading it. Not that they need worry: just about nobody has time to do the research required to get an inkling about what function they are meant to perform. Nor are the…

Farmer Green

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:23:11 +1300

High fructose corn syrup.

B Jones

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:14:39 +1300

Too addled by chemicals in the food injected by capitalists

What? Which ones?

BenWilson

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:50:01 +1300

Youth is also unfortunately correlated with a lack of engagement, and not voting. But which comes first? The candidate that appeals to youth, that makes them vote? Or the youth voting, which encourages a candidate that might appeal to them?

Bart Janssen

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:32:48 +1300

Just a thought, given left leaning ideology is quite strongly correlated with youth perhaps it might be a smart idea to present a candidate to those slightly younger people who isn't 70!

And yes I know you have to be 35+ and it takes a while to build up political…

BenWilson

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:49:46 +1300

Pedantic is good. I wonder if I mentally blotted out that Americans re-elected Bush after all his lying them into war. Somehow the election of Obama colored my memory of their general righteousness. I just feel it has to be said that them electing some really nasty people who did…

Rich Lock

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:36:33 +1300

A bit pedantic of me, but I've read at least one account of people voting for Trump because Obama invaded Iraq (and therefore created the mess).

BenWilson

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 09:36:10 +1300

Bush 2, Iraq, his second election.

But yes, you're right, I've obviously had a memory fail there. He was subsequently re-elected after doing that. So it wasn't a platform of invading Iraq. It was a platform of having already invaded Iraq. I'm not sure if that's better or worse, really.

Rich Lock

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 06:10:47 +1300

A President of the USA was elected not so long ago, pretty much on a platform of waging massive full scale war on a country on completely made up pretexts.

Can you clarify who you're talking about here?

Because Bush 1 was inaugurated in 1989, and had been in power…

BenWilson

Wed, 16 Nov 2016 01:09:56 +1300

I'm not really seeing a need to search souls quite so hard as what a lot of people have been doing. It's not the first time that a prick has been elected to a major democracy. It's not even the first time this century. It's not even the first time,…

Dennis Frank

Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:44:30 +1300

Seems to me we're looking at a failure of the social contract. From our perspective here in kiwiland we're fortunately somewhat insulated (neoliberalism creating less victims) currently but that may not last much longer.

Rousseau's notion strikes me as a conceptual take on mass psychology, which can be restated simply…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:58:37 +1300

The US is too polarised to meet the other side halfway. It's become very clear from the last few cycles that centrist establishment candidates don't win and that you need to throw red meat/vegan patties to your base rather than try to extend olive branches to the other side.

I'd…

Kirk Serpes

Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:56:49 +1300

Hi Denis, yeah I agree with you for the most part. The cozyness of the mainstream left with neoliberals who created the economic crisis def did not help – and Clinton was the worst possible candidate to put forward. She alienated the base and didn't pull votes from the other…

BenWilson

Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:15:08 +1300

She & Bill no doubt assumed middle-class folk are too stupid to understand the relation between cause & effect

She was not wrong. Trump also assumed this, and was also not wrong. His own personal conduct has not been that of a champion of the working man, and the women under him…

andin

Tue, 15 Nov 2016 06:18:51 +1300

Whatever happens

Well Bill Burr will keep them laughing at their own stupidity for a while, and him laughing all the way to the bank.
But its early days... and there's pressing local problems so fuck 'em.

Kumara Republic

Tue, 15 Nov 2016 03:36:35 +1300

There's been people on the left pointing out for years the problems with the western left, and after all this and all that's happened in 2016 if people want to pretend there's no crisis, then don't be surprised when more 'Brexits' keep occurring.

Whatever happens, I hope the developed world…

Rich Lock

Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:09:53 +1300

My issue with that Jonathan Pie vid (and similar analysis) is essentially
this.

It's kind of like blaming the victim of assault for walking into the wrong bar and 'looking at someone funny'.

There's a slightly more nuanced look at communication issues here.

simon g

Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:47:56 +1300

Well, they voted (indirectly) against the administration that responded to the GFC with the Recovery Act, a huge economic stimulus, the auto industry bailout, and and wanted to do much more, but was stymied by the Republicans in Congress.

And instead, they voted for a guy who never pays his…

Dennis Frank

Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:31:06 +1300

Kirk, that was a good all-round appraisal. I suggest you rethink this bit: "I honestly have no fucking idea why all the progressive white males I know keep saying we need to listen to the angry and disenfranchised people who voted for Trump. ..It’s beginning to scare me that you…

linger

Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:03:17 +1300

Nah, it's perfectly sensible on her part: too much risk that the headlines wouldn’t be the only thing grabbed.

Dennis Frank

Mon, 14 Nov 2016 20:48:31 +1300

Metiria Turei said it, but your assumption that she speaks for the Greens is only valid for those who believe in the 19th century concept of political representation. Our representatives are more likely to spout personal opinions nowadays. Some do try to articulate whatever the relatively objective commonly-held view in…

linger

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:39:20 +1300

N.B. luck out is one of those phrases that is its own antonym (meaning either 'ran out of luck' or 'came out lucky').

BenWilson

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:29:29 +1300

Like so many of the online troll farm that form The Dimpost’s commentariat you seem to have reduced “the left” to a gaggle of online dilettantes.

Yes, it's not been helpful analysis, certainly not reiterated every week for years.

I've come to think that "positioning" really has little to do…

Farmer Green

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:14:14 +1300

original post’s topic
"Why did TRUMP win" was not the topic?
Sheesh I got that wrong.

Farmer Green

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:02:55 +1300

Of course, whatever you say. But no, considering how [ . . .]is a consistent pro-[ . . .]/pro-[ . . .] and pro-[…] bloviator, I don’t see how [any comment published there] could be interesting.

Shut it down, any way that you can :-)
You want that I should…

mccx

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 11:42:02 +1300

Interesting is one way of putting it. But no, considering how ZeroHedge is a consistent pro-Putin/pro-Russia and pro-Trump bloviator, I don't see how that's interesting.

Getting a bit far from the original post's topic aren't we [and by we I mean you]?

Farmer Green

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 08:57:46 +1300

This writer is quite interesting.
Tin Foil Territory?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-12/beware-shadow-government-ron-paul-warns-president-elect-trump#comment-8448209

Old Radical Marijuana is quite hard to read, but here are a couple of lines from the comment linked :-

“THE MOST SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HILLARY CLINTON AND DONALD TRUMP WAS THAT SHE CONTINUED TO DEMONIZE RUSSIA AND PUTIN, WHILE TRUMP…

Farmer Green

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 06:52:40 +1300

we all seem to be getting more thin-skinned everyday.

We all have chinks in our mail, right?

Farmer Green

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 06:41:09 +1300

Would you discuss the finer points of chemotherapy with someone who denies that smoking gives you cancer?
I would be interested to hear that argument.

Rich Lock

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 06:39:47 +1300

Trump's framing appealed to the gut-instincts of rust-belt voters

It was also impossible for Clinton to push back against, since Bill Clinton signed the NAFTA agreement into force in Dec 1993, and Hiillary repeatedly spoke in favour of it from 1996 until 2007 (when she was setting up for a…

Rich Lock

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 06:28:51 +1300

You would listen to a"denier,” and try to see his point of view?

It depends. Would you discuss the finer points of chemotherapy with someone who denies that smoking gives you cancer?

mccx

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 04:33:13 +1300

In reality it's probably a bit of both, but you can't ignore the fact that most of the coverage of this election was not dominated by discussion of economic policy but about race and gender issues (to put it very mildly).

I don't think that claim is anywhere near "fact"…

mccx

Sun, 13 Nov 2016 04:11:21 +1300

They didn't block Bernie. He got in, and he lost. He was even less popular with the Democrat base, even in those swing states.

I think you'll find that in the three states that really cost Clinton the election –Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania – Sanders won the open primaries in Wisconsin…

Tom Semmens

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:15:24 +1300

Says it all.

https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/1044777035645189/

andin

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:58:46 +1300

there are many different varieties of “left”. And for the purpose of this very quickly written blog I kinda used that term a little too broadly at times. There’s the DNC elites DWS, Clintons,etc, the cultural elites like Bee, Oliver, etc, the far far left like Occupy, Jill Stien, the…

David Hood

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:32:29 +1300

After all they did vote for a black man twice.

I look at it as they were voting for the least establishment character. Which they continued to do so in voting for what Trump represented.

Kirk Serpes

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:26:37 +1300

I didn't need much convincing that a lot of men wouldn't vote for Clinton because she was a woman but I would really love someone to explain to me how a majority of women voted for Trump? It was like 53% or something. I really hope someone is focus grouping…

Kirk Serpes

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:20:46 +1300

Okay there's one other area there that I didn't quite address that's worth mentioning. The competing economic vs cultural back lash narratives. One says that large number of white people living the rust belt have been left behind by the modern economy and this is their protest vote. The other…

andin

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 17:07:01 +1300

the left’s nature constituency don’t think you care more, or are achieving ‘social justice’, they just think you’re self righteous narcissists

Im guessing you mean "natural constituency"
Its hard to argue when people feel as if they have been wronged in some way, and we all seem to be getting…

Moz

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 16:35:07 +1300

at some point people might want consider that millions of people in many countries that once would be the left's nature constituency don't think you care more, or are achieving 'social justice'

I'm yet to be convinced that they're listening to the left at all. I saw an apparently genuine…

daleaway

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 16:17:52 +1300

My friend in Los Angeles, a well-educated professional woman, is a Democrat to the core. Yet she told me she was pals with two other Democrats, both men, who told her their vote was going to Trump as there was no way they wanted a woman running the White House.…

Cornford

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 16:08:02 +1300

A racist sexual predator that has openly declared that he'll instruct the military to commit war crimes is President of the US, a fascist may become President of France, far right parties are surging across Europe, England is basically a one party state, Scotland Labour is a distant third, and…

andin

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 15:24:46 +1300

Clinton lost because of what a few hundred thousand people decided in the last few days not because of some global megatrend.

That sounds suspiciously like you are saying the US electorate is fickle
They wouldnt like that at all smiley face ))

simon g

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 13:28:09 +1300

Like so many of the online troll farm that form The Dimpost’s commentariat you seem to have reduced “the left” to a gaggle of online dilettantes.

This, so much this. People in NZ (or generally outside the USA) "analysing" the result with the help of a hefty crowbar, which they…

Farmer Green

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 13:07:25 +1300

Or , putting it another way ;-
“It might be worth pointing out that you’re not likely to convince other people to vote the way you think they ought to vote if you’re simultaneously berating them for being evilly evil with a double helping of evil sauce on the side,…

Farmer Green

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 12:57:40 +1300

Maybe this is a big part of it :-

"Rural and agricultural America has revolted against this perceived feudal system in an unimaginable way.
It voted not only out of feelings of rejection and abandonment, but also out of the sentiment of being taken for granted.
The result was an…

Farmer Green

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 10:11:17 +1300

You might need to explain to me how a ‘denier’ can ‘hold those values’.
You would listen to a"denier,” and try to see his point of view?
The words that you use suggest to me that it would be quite pointless on my part, but I could be wrong .…

Farmer Green

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 10:06:24 +1300

Trump’s core supporters were actual fucking nazis!
Are you for real?

Rich Lock

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 10:01:56 +1300

Why do you claim these values for the left?

original quote

the core values and concerns of the contemporary left

Operative word: 'the'. As in, the only thing the left cares about is identity politics.

I am pointing out that that is horseshit.

And since you brought it up, Trump…

Farmer Green

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 09:57:56 +1300

That is just so deplorable ; we should not talk about this. :-)

Farmer Green

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 09:48:38 +1300

contemporary left values’ such as income inequality or the environment

Why do you claim these values for the left?
Even “deniers” can hold these values :-)
Is it possible that we can even talk to each other?
Sue Bradford seems to think so – we'll see.

David Hood

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 09:00:53 +1300

We will never, in our lifetimes, see another election like that which is more favourable to the core values and concerns of the contemporary left

Unless the Republican economic policies are, as independent analysis suggests, going to be really bad for those not at the top of the economic ladder.…

Rich Lock

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 08:41:08 +1300

see another election like that which is more favourable to the core values and concerns of the contemporary left

...and then Bernie lost the primary. And no-one ever talked about 'contemporary left values' such as income inequality or the environment ever again.

Joe Wylie

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 08:27:05 +1300

the left lost

Like so many of the online troll farm that form The Dimpost's commentariat you seem to have reduced "the left" to a gaggle of online dilettantes. In the endless sidetrack of online point-scoring it seems so easy to forget how the contemporary "left" has made genuine progress.…

Danyl Mclauchlan

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 06:17:33 +1300

No idea if this is right but the point is Clinton lost because of what a few hundred thousand people decided in the last few days not because of some global megatrend.

There’s a lot of truth to this. It was close. Coulda’ gone the other way. Shame it didn’t,…

Matthew Hooton

Sat, 12 Nov 2016 01:49:07 +1300

I think Clinton lost because she and her spouse really are crooks and voters were reminded of this with the FBI stuff at the end, and a few hundred thousand Democratic women thought "nah, I''m not going to be told I have to vote for this crook as some sort…

Rich Lock

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 23:54:39 +1300

While all of the stats about the white middle-cass are 'true' – the $50+K earnings and so on, I do think this needs to parsed a bit more carefully.

2008 was the year the economy nearly went full Mad Max. Obama was elected, in 2008, specifically on a campaign of…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 23:13:30 +1300

https://youtu.be/GLG9g7BcjKs

Cornford

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 22:52:50 +1300

It's undoubtedly correct that a Managerialist 3rd way left is dead, and that's partly due to not really standing for anything, but largely because it took for granted so many left behind by a globalisation it embraced.
However, so is comfort blanket of big state old left socialism. The idea…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:35:47 +1300

I've seen too many leftists signing up to hate Hillary. Lies and mud and unsubstantiated innuendo from left right and centre (that's you, New York Times.) It's hard to explain but she pisses a lot of people off.
More than that: I don't think she ever really "got it" about…

andin

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:18:01 +1300

because she just didn’t inspire them?

yeah well you could pick holes in that reasoning till Beelzebub resorts to reggae
Umm maybe they should dial back the spittle a little
The US is headed for failed state of the century so far, and its only going to be the people…

tussock

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:40:44 +1300

Clinton's policies would've been of huge benefit to the white working class in the US. Trump's will be a disaster.

You say Democrats should support unions and collective agreements, they already do, especially in the states they control, high minimum wages, good working conditions, decent hours, collective bargaining, all of…

Sacha

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:33:27 +1300

it's the fundamental argument behind whether people are happy for Auckland to grow

So true. Those 1950s children who want their cosy coastal villages to continue forever.

Joshua Arbury

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:59:21 +1300

There are obviously lots of parallels between this and Brexit. They are characterised as people voting for "change" but in my mind they are actually voting against change – they want to turn back the clock.

The most important word in Trump's slogan was "again". A profound desire to return…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:01:57 +1300

If it's not a working-class revolt, then it could be that America's middle class is fearing for its very existence.

It's also safe to say that Hillary Clinton's loss is a knockout blow for the Third Way doctrine held dear by the Blue Dog Democrat and New Labour element. They…

Public Address

Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:01:57 +1300

Discussion from blog post.