Public Address | Cafe | Polity: New Zealand and the TPP: “Or you’ll do what?” https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Paul Campbell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346334#post346334 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346334#post346334 One thing that I realised this week is that the TPPA and its ilk is inherently unequal because it provides for the free movement of capital and goods ..... but not labour.

If all the great jobs move to country X because of TPPA but you can't move there and…

]]> Fri, 21 Aug 2015 18:49:11 +1200 David E.H. Smith https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346266#post346266 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346266#post346266 TPP & other Global Treaties/”Arrangements’

Grassroots America & overly polite global neighbors & need to know; Is it impolite, or, just prudent to Compare Corporate ‘America’s’ Desperation to ‘Share’ & Expand its $17 Trillion Debt via its flurry of Global Treaties/’Arrangements’ to the ‘bitchy’ (post Nixon PMS bullying) Desperation of Zza Zza Gabor when…

]]> Thu, 20 Aug 2015 18:39:27 +1200 John Farrell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346188#post346188 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346188#post346188 Dominion Post editorial:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/71236492/Editorial-Arrogance-will-not-win-Trans-Pacific-Partnership-debate-for-Key

]]> Thu, 20 Aug 2015 08:45:39 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346175#post346175 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346175#post346175 ts not based on an assumption but my observation of this post and his inglorious excursion into racial politics.

Any idea if David Round, Michael Cox, Stephen Franks, and Max Shierlaw are still involved with the Blue Team?

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:55:10 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346174#post346174 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346174#post346174 his inglorious excursion into racial politics.

Oh yes, you've identified an historic own goal there. It's almost up there with Fletcher Building CEO Graham Darlow's blaming the Irish for shoddy quake repairs – note the smarmy accompanying grin 1:54 into the clip – but without points to be scored you…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:43:11 +1200 Tinakori https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346173#post346173 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346173#post346173 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 22:29:23 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346165#post346165 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346165#post346165 free trade in general

TPP is not a 'free trade' agreement.

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 19:45:51 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346157#post346157 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346157#post346157 ...do that sort of thing all the time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7NEjEMnlRM

actually...

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 17:05:32 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346154#post346154 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346154#post346154 We could always go back to the originally initiated P3 / 4 trade deal.
Before the US et al shoehorned their way in.

The US has a habit of taking other people's work and turning it into manure, they do it with British comedy all the time. They never "got"…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 16:43:56 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346153#post346153 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346153#post346153 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 16:41:29 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346152#post346152 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346152#post346152 For Tim Groser personally, I suspect he has a seat at somewhere like the World Bank at stake.

Personally hope he has his seat handed to him in a sling.

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 16:40:36 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346150#post346150 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346150#post346150 I cannot see them walking away now. They have invested too much time and effort for that.

If the outcome of your investment is trending toward loss then then pull out of the investment. You don't go throwing good money after bad unless you are stupid or have an ideological…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 16:35:21 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346149#post346149 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346149#post346149 A more important question, why can't Labour attract quality advisors?

This use of the word "Quality" has always annoyed me, do you mean good quality or bad quality.
The other thing that annoys me is the assumption that Labour do not have GOOD quality advisors based on the fact that…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 16:30:01 +1200 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346144#post346144 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346144#post346144 We could always go back to the originally initiated P3 / 4 trade deal.
Before the US et al shoehorned their way in.
Not sure how Draconian that was, though?

A deal which no other Country involved had a problem with signing. [[http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Trade-and-Economic-Relations/2-Trade-Relationships-and-Agreements/Trans-Pacific/0-history.php| All Parties involved appeared to have equal…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:30:54 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346140#post346140 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346140#post346140 We could always go back to the originally initiated P3 / 4 trade deal.
Before the US et al shoehorned their way in.
Not sure how Draconian that was, though?

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 15:02:50 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346138#post346138 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346138#post346138 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:49:58 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346137#post346137 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346137#post346137 In a negotiation where no one has yet actually walked, the first party to walk does certainly make the most impact by doing so, particularly if it’s a significant change in their apparent direction. Some small players can be highly symbolically significant.
This is what I meant. The talks aren’t…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:37:46 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346136#post346136 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346136#post346136 Our Country by virtue of size isn’t chilling

It's hard to generalize. In a negotiation where no one has yet actually walked, the first party to walk does certainly make the most impact by doing so, particularly if it's a significant change in their apparent direction. Some small players can…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:24:04 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346135#post346135 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346135#post346135 I find it pretty scary to think about what it is that we have to trade, given that we're already about as open to trade as it is possible to get.

NZ may be naked but we were only grabbing one ankle in Maui. Timmy is limbering up for a…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 14:23:41 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346129#post346129 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346129#post346129 NZ walking away would have a chilling effect on the negotiations.

Who says ?I don't understand this comment. Our Country by virtue of size isn't chilling and any other Country in the Pacific region can negotiate without us if they are so interested in this agreement.

Gordon Campbell nailed this…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:59:40 +1200 Sofie Bribiesca https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346128#post346128 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346128#post346128 NZ walking away would have a chilling effect on the negotiations.
Who says ?I don't understand this comment. Our Country by virtue of size isn't chilling and any other Country in the Pacific region can negotiate without us if they are so interested in this agreement.


Not always.


Absolutely! Although…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:50:37 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346119#post346119 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346119#post346119 NZ walking away would have a chilling effect on the negotiations.

Not always. Very often the main effect you get from walking away from a negotiation is a massive increase in both the number and the quality of the offers you get. Because walking away is never irreversable and everyone…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:14:11 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346118#post346118 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346118#post346118 our market access gains (prime targets: dairy into Canada, Japan, US) were worth more to NZ over the long term than the concessions we’re being asked to make.
What do you think conceding on ISDs and patent increases are ‘worth’ to NZ? While there will always be an attempt to…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:08:12 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346115#post346115 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346115#post346115 BOTWA is the same length and just as easy, but. Also, in the length of the underlying phrase it's half as many syllables, and it doesn't require research to understand what it actually means :-).

Of course that's both strength and weakness depending on whether your purpose is to clearly…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:05:43 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346113#post346113 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346113#post346113 I think Groser sees the equations quite differently. And trade has little to do with it.
In terms of what we give up: I get the impression Groser and many in National don’t see any real problem with adopting US positions on IP. Surely these as reasonable claims and won’t…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 13:02:45 +1200 Stephen Judd https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346111#post346111 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346111#post346111 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:47:43 +1200 Stephen Judd https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346110#post346110 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346110#post346110 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:46:12 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346109#post346109 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346109#post346109 It’s that we won’t recognise that our BATNA is better than any of the offers on the table.

Yes, a complicated way of saying “we’re better off to walk away”? Which is not exactly an uncommon scenario. Quite the opposite, it’s the default scenario all the time. How many possible…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:45:09 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346108#post346108 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346108#post346108 New Zealand’s position on trade, where we unilaterally take down almost all our own tariffs then act completely surprised when nobody listens to our pleas later, has been likened to showing up naked to a strip poker game. Before the game begins, you’ve already lost.
It's not just Groser, he's…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:44:45 +1200 Stephen Judd https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346106#post346106 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346106#post346106 Also, the style of negotiation you describe [BATNA] is shit.

It is perfectly reasonable for both sides to bear in mind their BATNA (Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement for people who haven't heard this before). BATNA is part of the same principled negotiation strategy outlined in books like Getting…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:26:05 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346105#post346105 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346105#post346105 A more important question, why can't Labour attract quality advisors?

Yes, questions about Labour, when discussing the National Party negotiator on behalf of the long standing National Government, are always more important. We should certainly be holding the Opposition accountable for the government's mistakes in a functional democracy...oh, hang on...…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:25:50 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346104#post346104 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346104#post346104 why do you seem to think modern unions are incapable of collaboration (they patently aren’t)

I don't agree with that. As head of the EPMU, Andrew Little led a top-notch collaboration to save some aircraft engineering jobs, and increase profit for Air NZ at the same time.

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:15:56 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346102#post346102 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346102#post346102 most people now accept that successful negation for sustainable outcomes is a collaborative effort from all sides.

I agree. Searching for win/wins is the essence of modern negotiation. But eventually you run out of those, and you have to start dealing with a series of increasingly fraught win/losses on various…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 12:06:26 +1200 TracyMac https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346098#post346098 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346098#post346098 sometimes deemed worthy of being collaborated with? ]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 11:56:28 +1200 Ianmac https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346097#post346097 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346097#post346097 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 11:07:30 +1200 Don Christie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346096#post346096 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346096#post346096 Or we won’t sign up.

Really? Can we hear that from the leader or foreign affairs spokesperson?

Also, the style of negotiation you describe [BATNA] is shit. Whilst I don't disagree that unions have delivered some good outcomes most people now accept that successful negation for sustainable outcomes is a…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 11:01:20 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346095#post346095 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346095#post346095 Stop playing the blame game for a moment.
Do you support the TPP yourself, and if so, why?

Fair question: I would support the TPP is our market access gains (prime targets: dairy into Canada, Japan, US) were worth more to NZ over the long term than the concessions we're…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:52:00 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346093#post346093 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346093#post346093 New Zealand is tiny and is not essential to any trade deal involving large countries like the US or Japan. We are a very small fish in a big pond, and this is what happens to small fish, no matter who is running the Government.

I agree, Nick. That's why…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:49:48 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346092#post346092 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346092#post346092 Including, presumably, the 6 or so years he was the Labour government’s chief trade negotiator?

Most of the damage he did up to now was in promoting the unilateral trade liberalisation that came before 1999.

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:48:37 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346091#post346091 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346091#post346091 Or what will you do?

Labour Party…

Or we won't sign up.

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:46:39 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346088#post346088 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346088#post346088 I just hope that whatever the Government ends up negotiating is better than nothing

The IP concessions alone make that very unlikely if we think of our economic future lying elsewhere than exporting raw products.

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:38:58 +1200 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346087#post346087 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346087#post346087 Stop playing the blame game for a moment.
Do you support the TPP yourself, and if so, why?

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:36:02 +1200 Nick Russell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346086#post346086 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346086#post346086 Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:33:38 +1200 Tinakori https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346085#post346085 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346085#post346085 Two points

"All that is because Tim Groser spent the last 20 years getting naked before stepping out to play strip poker, said Groser has been negotiating badly for 20 years,"

Including, presumably, the 6 or so years he was the Labour government's chief trade negotiator?

"That’s what is going…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:28:41 +1200 Rob S https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346083#post346083 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346083#post346083 Run on a pull out of the treaty platform seems to be the best response.
I see very few opportunities for our country in this treaty, our political masters just say trust me.
This is not good enough.
I’m not anti free trade however I now feel that we should…

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:07:01 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346081#post346081 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-new-zealand-and-the-tpp-or-youll/?p=346081#post346081 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Wed, 19 Aug 2015 09:40:28 +1200