Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: Naked Inside the Off-Ramp https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292926#post292926 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292926#post292926 Sun, 25 Aug 2013 01:56:51 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292867#post292867 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292867#post292867 Sat, 24 Aug 2013 10:36:28 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292841#post292841 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292841#post292841 doctrines around evidence, privacy, and the rights and liberties of the subject rather than employment or tort law.

How's that work? Before any of those other doctrines come into play it's necessary to establish if secondment alters the relationship between the party being surveilled and the parties carrying out the…

]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 20:29:36 +1200 Steve Withers https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292799#post292799 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292799#post292799 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 16:13:40 +1200 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292794#post292794 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292794#post292794 Fri, 23 Aug 2013 15:53:30 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292774#post292774 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292774#post292774 The indeterminacy of the law means that all acts are ambiguously legal.

Exactly. The law is not explicitly clear, no matter what some commentators think. My point about principal/agent was that ordinarily secondment alters the relationship between the seconded individual and the organisation to which they are seconded. GCSB officers…

]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 15:13:27 +1200 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292770#post292770 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292770#post292770 I think trying to use principal/agent analysis here is kinda pointless. Likewise vicarious liability. (Apart from anything else, both are civil concepts.)

The indeterminacy of the law means that all acts are ambiguously legal. The GCSB (as a secret agency evading the courts) is particularly prone to that.

It is…

]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 14:56:45 +1200 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292757#post292757 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292757#post292757 the term “the belt-way”:
most often found encircling complete & utter pants?

]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 14:12:13 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292751#post292751 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292751#post292751 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicarious_liability_in_English_law
may be relevant.

ISTR you can spend a whole class in law school on that subject.

But if the definition of "secondment" involved the employee using their access to GCSB's interception systems as opposed to merely their technical knowledge, then I suspect that isn't relevant, they were agents of…

]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:54:57 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292741#post292741 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292741#post292741 If NZSIS or NZ Police were the requesting agency, by definition it involved someone on whom GCSB were forbidden to spy...

That would be true only if the NZ police never investigated foreigners.

Note, that in the GCSB 2003 Act an important reason for other agencies to request GCSB assistance…

]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:12:05 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292716#post292716 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292716#post292716 Allowing them to be seconded to other organisations doesn’t overrule that.

O'rly? My understanding of the law about secondment is that it is far from as black-and-white as you appear to believe. AFAIK, the seconded employee becomes, for the purposes of agency and principal, an agent of the seconding organisation,…

]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 11:29:14 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292712#post292712 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292712#post292712 No. Secondment (or co-operating with other agencies) was entirely legal. It is plainly there in the 2003 GCSB act.

What was illegal, regardless of whether on secondment or not, was GCSB agents/resources being used to spy on NZers.

It can't be both. It can't be both legal and illegal. Secondment…

]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 11:25:45 +1200 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292697#post292697 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292697#post292697 We do have 88 potentially illegal spying incidents. There’s no ruling from a court, so it’s not certain whether they were or weren’t illegal. And what’s been revealed by a former head of the GCSB subsequent to the report as to how assistance was actually rendered makes it that much… ]]> Fri, 23 Aug 2013 10:23:13 +1200 Hebe https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292646#post292646 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292646#post292646 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 22:54:34 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292640#post292640 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292640#post292640 It is not being seconded that was illegal, it was spying on NZers that was illegal. Being on secondment didn’t mean it suddenly became legal for GCSB agents to spy on NZers.

Correct. And thinking it was legal didn't make it so, or excuse the actions. "Ignorance of the law…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 22:44:30 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292632#post292632 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292632#post292632 And the argument is being made right now that secondment is illegal.

No. Secondment (or co-operating with other agencies) was entirely legal. It is plainly there in the 2003 GCSB act.

What was illegal, regardless of whether on secondment or not, was GCSB agents/resources being used to spy on NZers.…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 22:24:31 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292592#post292592 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292592#post292592 dream up a more appropriate metaphor

the Thordon Bubble has long appealed

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 20:59:32 +1200 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292559#post292559 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292559#post292559 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 19:09:20 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292555#post292555 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292555#post292555 What Kier should have written, unconnected to anyones post, subtweet style:

__It would be nice if uninformed commentators wouldn't pretend to knowledge they don't have.

It would be nice if those who shill for politicians would make that clear in their occasional posts, especially when those politicians are notorious pedlars…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 18:35:02 +1200 andin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292550#post292550 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292550#post292550 Some distinguished New Zealanders did try and tell Key this, but they were all dismissed in scattergun attacks on their virtue, assisted gracelessly by his Attorney-General Chris Finlayson during the bill’s Third Reading Debate. God and sin seemed to have caused its own rot there, but never mind, if Peter… ]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 17:31:56 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292549#post292549 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292549#post292549 So basically in the sample we know about (because a court extracted the documentation), they broke the law, and in the samples we don't know about they didn't.

And they denied breaking the law up to the point where they were forced to admit it.

You can draw your own…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 17:26:54 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292542#post292542 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292542#post292542 Key seems to have tipped into the Rob Muldoon “you can think what you like but if you disagree with me you are a fool” political mode.

Exactly! It almost makes me think he's had enough of this PM lark and is just trying to see how far he can…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:51:23 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292541#post292541 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292541#post292541 I'll let this stand, but continuing in this vein would be unhelpful.

Presumably because it's impolite rather than untrue.

PAS is different from other blogs because it tends not to attack the person and instead address (politely) the ideas and reasoning.

That is one of the major reasons PAS is…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:48:12 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292540#post292540 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292540#post292540 Did the other agency (police) have a warrant to intercept (e.g.) Dotcom’s communications?

Dotcom was a clear case of GCSB interception, not secondment. But GCSB acted under the incorrect belief that Dotcom was not a resident, so the police having a warrant (or not) doesn't matter. They absolutely broke the…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:41:07 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292538#post292538 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292538#post292538 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:32:53 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292535#post292535 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292535#post292535 No more messin' around...
If that mix tape were about snapper...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmCQAxP6s3Y
...here comes the 'No More Buddy, Buddy New Look Labour'!

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:23:45 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292534#post292534 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292534#post292534 No, but he’s also not about to admit to illegality under his command, either.

If seconding personnel to other agencies is illegal, then he already has made that admission. And the argument is being made right now that secondment is illegal.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:17:37 +1200 nzlemming https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292533#post292533 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292533#post292533 unless you’re suggesting that Sir Bruce (who has been extremely outspoken about his disapproval of this legislation) is part of the National spin machine?

No, but he's also not about to admit to illegality under his command, either.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:07:03 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292532#post292532 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292532#post292532 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 16:05:00 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292530#post292530 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292530#post292530 Yet another sign the GCSB is entering the public consciousness...

i-Spy: a GCSB mixtape

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 15:56:45 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292528#post292528 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292528#post292528
Now who’s applying 2013 hindsight to things?

In what respect?

Your confident assertion that (what some claim is) clarity of illegality now, in 2013, was clearly illegal from inside the GCSB in prior years, based on what you think might be and should be the operating pattern. The only hard…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 15:54:10 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292508#post292508 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292508#post292508 Now who's applying 2013 hindsight to things?

In what respect?

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 15:21:01 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292507#post292507 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292507#post292507 Joh Bjelke slapped some kind of ban on Red Tulip chocolates and Steinlager. That was about it.

And that was just Queensland. Additionally, the scale of his corruption came back to bite him in the arse just a couple of years later. One member of the 'brain drain' that actually…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 15:20:16 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292503#post292503 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292503#post292503 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 15:16:09 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292492#post292492 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292492#post292492 We do have 88 illegal spying incidents by the GCSB according to the report after all. Is that report wrong?

We do have 88 potentially illegal spying incidents. There's no ruling from a court, so it's not certain whether they were or weren't illegal. And what's been revealed __by a…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:52:15 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292489#post292489 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292489#post292489 if one reads what Sir Bruce said...

Although, to his credit, Sir Bruce appears to not support the new GCSB legislation, he can hardly be relied on as a neutral commentator on what went on at the GCSB when he was in charge of it.

Unless one is arguing that…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:48:21 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292488#post292488 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292488#post292488 But did any actual bad things happen to NZ as a result of US displeasure at our nuclear stance?
Joh Bjelke slapped some kind of ban on Red Tulip chocolates and Steinlager. That was about it.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:45:28 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292487#post292487 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292487#post292487 But did any actual bad things happen to NZ as a result of US displeasure at our nuclear stance?

We obviously didn't get invaded. If our exports to the US suffered, it didn't impact the economy much (compared with the simultaneous effect of Roger Douglas). McDonalds, Coca Cola and IBM…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:43:30 +1200 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292484#post292484 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292484#post292484 There was no ambiguity in the 2003 law. The GCSB could not spy on NZers, but it could render assistance to police etc. Which is fine, these are not inconsistent statements. This just means that the GCSB (if it followed its legislation) could not spy on NZers in the course… ]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:37:40 +1200 Aidan https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292482#post292482 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292482#post292482 The Lange story after we withdrew from the nuclear club is instructive. He had a ton of shit poured on him.

Me1: Something something bullying.
Me2: Realpolitik! Something something naive!

For me the instructive part of the nuclear free and Rainbow Warrior episodes was the realisation that the US had…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:35:16 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292481#post292481 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292481#post292481 The Lange story after we withdrew from the nuclear club is instructive. He had a ton of shit poured on him.

Quite. And we weren't even a participating member!

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:33:47 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292475#post292475 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292475#post292475 Fair point about the span of the Anglophonic world, but neither of them has ever been a member of Five Eyes. The consequences would be as a result of pulling out, not as a result of no longer being in.

The Lange story after we withdrew from the nuclear club…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:25:00 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292474#post292474 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292474#post292474 Ireland is not in Five Eyes, nor is (at least partly Anglophonic) South Africa. Neither of these countries have suffered any dire consequences as a result.

Fair point about the span of the Anglophonic world, but neither of them has ever been a member of Five Eyes. The consequences would…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:18:48 +1200 Idiot Savant https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292470#post292470 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292470#post292470 I thought that happened a long time ago.

Yes. But removing it is a chance to stop that rot.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:12:32 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292468#post292468 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292468#post292468 The GCSB could not spy on NZers, but it could render assistance to police etc. Which is fine, these are not inconsistent statements. This just means that the GCSB (if it followed its legislation) could not spy on NZers in the course of rendering assistance to the police, etc.

And,…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 14:07:57 +1200 Tom Semmens https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292463#post292463 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292463#post292463 David Shearer has resigned as Labour Party leader apparently!!

My guess is his not-so-secret meeting with Key, which Key used as a stick to beat him with in the debate last night, was the final straw for elements of the caucus that clearly were not informed the meeting took place.…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:58:56 +1200 Chris Waugh https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292462#post292462 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292462#post292462 He put his head above the parapet, and tried to sell himself as someone who cared, someone who might take a stand, and then just sold himself…

Well yes, and I see how his actions are deserving of scorn, but the abuse he's been subject to seems a bit more…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:44:54 +1200 Chris Waugh https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292461#post292461 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292461#post292461 since all it leads to is SIS politicisation

I thought that happened a long time ago.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:42:00 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292459#post292459 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292459#post292459 David is dead long live the new David...
David Shearer has resigned as Labour Party leader apparently!!
on the heels of his Chief of Staff resigning the other day...

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:40:52 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292458#post292458 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292458#post292458 pulling out of Echelon means shitting on the rest of the Anglophonic world

Ireland is not in Five Eyes, nor is (at least partly Anglophonic) South Africa. Neither of these countries have suffered any dire consequences as a result.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:39:33 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292457#post292457 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292457#post292457 ...when one considers that pulling out of Echelon means shitting on the rest of the Anglophonic world (and their Western intelligence/security partners), not just shitting on the US...

Yes. And exactly the same risks were involved in a nuclear free declaration.

The nuclear free declaration was in fact a worse…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:35:02 +1200 Idiot Savant https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292456#post292456 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292456#post292456 Also, it's not really fair to say Labour's always the party of the status quo on these issues. Nuclear free NZ, anyone?

Point. But on spying? Abolishing the GCSB and closing Waihopai is official Green policy. What's Labour's?

(reading that policy document, I'm optimistic for a compromise. But its going…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:34:38 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292455#post292455 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292455#post292455 The Oh Zone...
It would be nice if our political journalists would stop being so bloody lazy and dream up a more appropriate metaphor.
The Thorndon Sinkhole
has a certain ring to it....


Dunning the Dunne...
And what’s with all the hating on Peter Dunne?
He put his head above…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:34:10 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292453#post292453 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292453#post292453 The demonisation of GCSB as deliberately breaking the law and knowing they were doing so doesn't stand up to scrutiny...

If you read the Hansard debates of the 2003 legilsation, much of the debates consist of Keith Locke saying this bill does not prevent the GCSB spying on NZers and…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:25:52 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292451#post292451 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292451#post292451 one saying the GCSB couldn't spy on New Zealanders, and one saying they could spy on behalf of other agencies

So, if a taxi driver is not allowed to break the speed limit, and they are allowed to carry passengers, they can break the speed limit when they're carrying passengers?…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:18:52 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292450#post292450 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292450#post292450 it was equally unthinkable, by non-radicals, that we could declare ourselves nuclear free.

Nobody said it's unthinkable that we could pull out of Echelon. What Paul said is that there would be severe consequences, and based on the reaction by the US to the anti-nuclear issue we can be quite…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:17:45 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292449#post292449 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292449#post292449 That’s the opinion of the courts, I believe.

Nope. It’s the opinion of the commentariat; it’s never been ruled on by the judiciary. And the absolute certainty of various commentators that it’s unquestionably illegal is not supported by what Sir Bruce told NetHui about how things really worked. It’s murky…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:14:19 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292448#post292448 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292448#post292448 one saying they could spy on behalf of other agencies

There was no such clause. What there was was a clause requiring them to assist other government agencies.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:06:34 +1200 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292447#post292447 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292447#post292447 That’s a disputed opinion.
That’s the opinion of the courts, I believe. That’s the illegal spying John Key apologised to Kim Dotcom for.
As the political fallout began to toxify, the line changed: the illegality became a ‘disputed opinion.’ Then the legal experts started to be disparaged, and those who’d…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 13:05:47 +1200 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292446#post292446 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292446#post292446 I have to say, I don't particularly support us having a GCSB or SIS or our Echelon participation. However, be that as it may, there's a huge amount that can be done absent abolition to improve those two institutions.

Also, it's not really fair to say Labour's always the party…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:59:57 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292445#post292445 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292445#post292445 The very real consequences of disestablishing NZSIS and/or GCSB and withdrawing from Echelon...should be sufficient to win that argument on the day

I wouldn't be so sure. In the 1970s, it was equally unthinkable, by non-radicals, that we could declare ourselves nuclear free.

Sure, there is probably an argument for…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:58:12 +1200 Chris Waugh https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292444#post292444 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292444#post292444 John Key has become a smaller man, more petty than we’ve seen him before.

This. And:

Spoken like a tactician

And that, I think, is a major problem in NZ politics. Does our political class have any strategists? The Greens seem a little better than most at long-term thinking, but…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:50:42 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292443#post292443 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292443#post292443 the GCSB was secretly ignoring its legislation.

The GCSB was the recipient of a law that was ambiguous in the face of the actual operational pattern of being a supporting agency. The demonisation of GCSB as deliberately breaking the law and knowing they were doing so doesn't stand up to…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:48:33 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292442#post292442 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292442#post292442 I think the Greens could be persuaded to accept serious reform

I think serious oversight would satisfy the Greens, by and large. An independent watchdog with resources and teeth, reporting to an empowered select committee on which the PM doesn't even sit, never mind sitting as Chair, would go a…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:43:27 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292441#post292441 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292441#post292441 this page might inform. ]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:38:49 +1200 Aidan https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292440#post292440 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292440#post292440 And the main problem with the 2003 version was that we subsequently found that the GCSB was secretly ignoring its legislation.

Which seems to be the culture of these sorts of organisations, namely "A Few Good Men"-eqsue. You can't handle the truth etc.

This 1983(!) article about the NSA could…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:38:34 +1200 Chris Waugh https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292438#post292438 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292438#post292438 I loathe the use of the term inside the beltway, it supposes the general public don’t care or understand…

I loathe the term because it refers specifically to a highway, I-495, surrounding Washington DC. Using "inside the Beltway" to refer to anything in NZ politics makes as much sense as referring…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:37:51 +1200 Pete George https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292437#post292437 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292437#post292437 And the main problem with the 2003 version was that we subsequently found that the GCSB was secretly ignoring its legislation.
That's a disputed opinion. It's also claimed that there were two ambiguious clauses, one saying the GCSB couldn't spy on New Zealanders, and one saying they could spy on…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:36:35 +1200 Idiot Savant https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292435#post292435 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292435#post292435 I'd imagine that after horsetrading post-review, they'll vote for it if it improves the GCSB in the way they want it. Why would they vote against a bill that pushes the GCSB in the direction that they believe it should go, as part of a coalition government?
Oh, they'll vote…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:30:26 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292433#post292433 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292433#post292433 Dunne initiated a number of worthwhile amendments to the bill, more than anyone else managed, but one person versus 59 can only do so much..

He could have always voted against it. And then the government would have had to propose entirely new legislation (or go to a snap election,…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:20:11 +1200 Richard Love https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292432#post292432 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292432#post292432 The 2003 GCSB Bill was not proposed as a response to Sept. 11. The first reading of the 2003 Bill was in May 2001, before Sept. 11.

Also, note that it took 2 years for the passage of the previous bill, because there was a desire to get it right…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:14:26 +1200 Idiot Savant https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292431#post292431 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292431#post292431 If there’s a credible independent inquiry into the security services, the spectacle of the National Party lining up to vote it down will be so damaging and ludicrous that of course they won’t (and if they do, well, that’s fine by me). Likewise, the Greens would love to get some… ]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:13:37 +1200 Hebe https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292430#post292430 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292430#post292430 The key differences between most corporates and a democracy are in the treatment of minorities and the engagement with minority opinions. Key’s behaviour during public hearings on the bill made it plain that in his view alternative opinions were a waste of his time.

Key seems to have tipped into…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:11:28 +1200 Euan Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292429#post292429 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292429#post292429 Presumably because it’s impolite rather than untrue.

Maybe since he’s chosen to engage here, he could justify his man Dunne selling his vote and tell us what he got for it? Ambassadorship? Ministerial seat back? Clear run at the next election? Or just hard cash from some US-backed ‘trust’?

The…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:07:00 +1200 Kyle Matthews https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292428#post292428 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292428#post292428 But Greens, Mana and Maori don't like the GCSB or SIS and are unlikely to vote for the likley outcome of any inquiry that isn't stacked in their favour (and that shouldn't happen).

I'd imagine that after horsetrading post-review, they'll vote for it if it improves the GCSB in the…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:04:12 +1200 Euan Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292427#post292427 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292427#post292427 These differences may also not be sensed or articulated by many New Zealanders, which would explain why he appeals so successfully to the pragmatism in NZ culture in which a high placing on some leaderboard is sufficient proof of a successful strategy.

The key differences between most corporates and a…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 12:00:37 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292426#post292426 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292426#post292426 demonstrate that Key was lying about his foreknowledge of the original raid.

Nearly. He's asserting that Key had foreknowledge of Dotcom before the raid, whereas Key is claiming that he'd never heard of the man up until the circus was in town and the master was in the ring.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:54:27 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292425#post292425 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292425#post292425 Yon Dunne has a lean and hungry look…
…his man Dunne selling his vote…
Here is our man Dunne back in Canta in July, 1974, selling his ‘Presidential’ qualities to the proles …

__(ps: feel free to grab this image and use where and how you like, or contact me…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:54:21 +1200 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292424#post292424 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292424#post292424 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:53:56 +1200 Pete George https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292423#post292423 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292423#post292423 Your snideness despite Russell's request, and your accusations like "Or just hard cash from some US-backed ‘trust’?" (presumably totally without foundation) suggests that genuine engagement is not really your intention.

It's not for me to justify what Dunne did, that's up to him. He's tried to do that.

In my…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:45:38 +1200 Matthew Poole https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292422#post292422 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292422#post292422 over here. It's worth a read, particularly since it's the kind of area were he's absolutely an expert. ]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:36:42 +1200 Grant Taylor https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292421#post292421 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292421#post292421 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:36:28 +1200 Paul Campbell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292420#post292420 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292420#post292420 Some tightening of national security policy across the globe was to be expected following 9/11. But when such measures are tightened far beyond their original intention – and/or far beyond their use-by date – it's tantamount to a permanent state of emergency, which from past historical precedent is an early… ]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:35:43 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292419#post292419 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292419#post292419 Pete George, is, of course, a pompous old windbag with no clue.

I'll let this stand, but continuing in this vein would be unhelpful.

Presumably because it's impolite rather than untrue.

Maybe since he's chosen to engage here, he could justify his man Dunne selling his vote and tell us…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:30:58 +1200 Andre https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292417#post292417 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292417#post292417 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:18:01 +1200 Pete George https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292416#post292416 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292416#post292416 I imagine that Labour and the Greens promising a review of our intelligence services...will offer an appealing contrast and choice for many voters.
A contrast? A review of our intelligence services is already promised in the new legislation. Plus subsequent reviews every 5-7 years.

Greens have been clear about their…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:17:13 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292415#post292415 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292415#post292415 Pete George, is, of course, a pompous old windbag with no clue.

I'll let this stand, but continuing in this vein would be unhelpful.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:14:27 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292413#post292413 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292413#post292413 ...a framework that has never apprehended and convicted anyone and conspicuously failed to detect both the Rainbow Warrior bombings and, more recently, the Mossad passport fraud attempt?
On the face of it, we obviously need someone to be watching our 'friends' more closely ...

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:07:04 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292412#post292412 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292412#post292412 What a complete Cnut...
Far from actually claiming omnipotence,
Canute was demonstrating to his supporters
that he wasn’t all-powerful.
oops, I forgot that, when I used the analogy elsewhere.
but it still makes a mockery of Key's 'I can foretell
what future decision makers will do' stance
because he can't…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:02:02 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292411#post292411 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292411#post292411 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 11:01:01 +1200 Jon J. https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292410#post292410 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292410#post292410 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:59:21 +1200 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292409#post292409 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292409#post292409 Pete George, is, of course, a pompous old windbag with no clue.

If there’s a credible independent inquiry into the security services, the spectacle of the National Party lining up to vote it down will be so damaging and ludicrous that of course they won’t (and if they do, well,…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:54:54 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292407#post292407 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292407#post292407 I would be astonished if the inquiry recommended the abolition of the GCSB and SIS

Could you justify why not, in particular:

– why IT security coordination is best conducted by a secret, unaccountable organisation rather than an open public body?

– why we need parallel policing bodies outside the…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:52:32 +1200 Greg Dawson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292406#post292406 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292406#post292406 where the executive should have control not just over policy discussions but also ultimately over people’s rights to express opinions or mount arguments against the status quo

Something like "You've had your debate. There's no need to write any more." ?

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:45:26 +1200 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292405#post292405 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292405#post292405 story of King Canute may not be the best reference point for Key's behaviour. Far from actually claiming omnipotence, Canute was demonstrating to his supporters that he wasn’t all-powerful. ]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:31:49 +1200 Euan Mason https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292404#post292404 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292404#post292404 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:26:39 +1200 Pete George https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292403#post292403 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292403#post292403 I would be astonished if the inquiry recommended the abolition of the GCSB and SIS. That's not the way Shearer has framed it at all, and the chances of it happening are less than zero.

I agree. Shearer even proposed supporting the bill with a sunset clause. But Greens, Mana…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:21:39 +1200 Carol Stewart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292401#post292401 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292401#post292401 Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:17:35 +1200 bob daktari https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292400#post292400 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292400#post292400 I loathe the use of the term inside the beltway, it supposes the general public don't care or understand... which simply isn't true – its elitist and condescending

as for the passing of this bill – those opposed/concerned won't be forgetting this issue nor the bullying and arrogant nature of…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:10:16 +1200 Stephen R https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292398#post292398 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292398#post292398 I would be astonished if the inquiry recommended the abolition of the GCSB and SIS.

As would I. Although I could imagine a political case being made that the GCSB shouldn't be feeding data to the Five Eyes network any more... Think of it like the privacy version of the…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:06:40 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292396#post292396 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292396#post292396 Snowden (or Greenwald) still apparently has a lot more documents to release. This should keep the issue of govt spying going in the international media – plus there’s still a good chance that some of those releases might further explore the relationship between the NSA and the GCSB.

The Guardian’s…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 10:00:34 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292395#post292395 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292395#post292395 If the inquiry recommends to retain the GCSB and SIS, perhaps with law tweaks, then Labour would have to go to National for support. which is back to where both National and Labour should have been over the last two months.

I would be astonished if the inquiry recommended the…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:53:46 +1200 Thomas Beagle https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292394#post292394 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292394#post292394 I suspect Key has also miscalculated in one other major way – this issue isn't going away. Normally when you pass a law the debate dies out and people move on. The electorate's memory is short, etc, etc.

But Snowden and Dotcom should keep the issue hopping along. (The TICS…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:47:59 +1200 Pete George https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292393#post292393 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292393#post292393 Labour have also created substantial problems for themselves. There have already been campaigns proposed to make this an election issue for Labour candidates, forcing them into pro or anti GCSB camps.

If about survive that and are in a position to form a coalition it would have to deal with…

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:44:49 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292392#post292392 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-naked-inside-the-off-ramp/?p=292392#post292392 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Thu, 22 Aug 2013 09:44:49 +1200