Since 2007 there have been more than 60000 births each year in New…

Besides, it’s an argument for introducing a policy to address an issue which simply does not exist. That some people fear that this is an issue does not make it one.

If it's not an issue it's not an issue. More research needed – or not – depending on where…

I think there are far meaner things happening in the current welfare and tax systems in terms of the distribution of state assets than this would introduce.

Possibly, but that's not really a very compelling argument. Besides, it's an argument for introducing a policy to address an issue which simply…

I can sense some self-righteous idealism as well, but it’s not coming from Joe.

I'll accept that – and regret that.

Pander to that fear? However unreasonable it is? Because perception is reality?

I genuinely don't think this has to be pandering to anything or anyone. No existing family or…

? No locking away. The same amount of money distributed over 3-4 children per family up to a certain maximum amount

Again: how, exactly, is that *not* penalising the fifth, sixth, or seventh child in a family dependent on state benefits?

Rather than feed this fear it might be cleverer to ...

Pander to that fear? However unreasonable it is? Because perception is reality?

You need to rein in your self-righteous idealism a little.

I can sense some self-righteous idealism as well, but it's not coming from Joe.

Where does the money go, and how is it ‘locked away’ from the parents?

? No locking away. The same amount of money distributed over 3-4 children per family up to a certain maximum amount – a generous maximum to be sure. Plus free quality public health and pre/schooling for…

It would just be allocated differently to remove any incentive to have more children for the sake of increasing the benefit.

OK (I mean, I…

Sally, I know you write in haste, but how does this idea not impoverish all children of larger families? It's not their fault which family they're born into

Lilith: I'm sorry if my argument gave you the impression that I don't value children – and…

To me the obvious approach is to try and get the smartest most creative most “productive” children – rather than simpler more children.

Perhaps those smartest most creative productive children can be any child.

Knowledge Is Power Program, or KIPP, founded in 1993 by a couple of frustrated young teachers,…

Pragmatically speaking, we can only deal with what’s happening in our backyard.

Which is fine. But even then I'd argue that we still need to figure out a smarter way of increasing "wealth" then simply increasing the number of bodies producing wealth. To me the obvious approach is to try…

But mostly how and why.

Why is because we want the children to actually get what they need.

How is from us all contributing. And then how is by making what the kids need free.

Like many countries we have a resident demographic bulge on the way as our boomers age – over 65s will double over the next two or three decades.

Someone else can provide overall detail, but to me it's part of the reason we need to have these conversations about social…

Someone else can provide overall detail, but to me it's part of the reason we need to have these conversations about social…

isn't this thread also about 'who is going to pay?'

And how.

monetarily, at least

As I wrote here this morning:

Resources are more than money or things or employees. Aroha is too. As is coordination of many caring intentions.

We all pay in many ways, just as we contribute…

We are, as a species, waaaay more fragile than some folk here seem to think....

we're all going to turn into Vampires

shhh – or nano-robots :)

this thread's strange freakout over the po' folks having too many sprogs

for most of us I believe the discussion has been about folks, not just poor ones

Finally got it – we're all going to turn into Vampires.

even if it doesn't double again by 2050, the "i'm ok down here in under-populated NZ" attitude is not likely to be helpful to your offspring

Yeah, I... kind of already knew about the world population explosion, not being a complete ignoramus (I just play one on TV). Thanks for…

unless there are children, our species has no continuance

that used to be true, yes.

There have been FAR WORSE THINGS than humans born on/…

Well, given that Procreating Will Kill Us All, what's NZ's birth rate at the moment? Probably barely replacement level, right? So what are we freaking out about again?

the planet's human population has doubled since i was born in the mid-1960s. that's 45 years. the previous doubling took 65 years.…

And Scott Baio is now a rightwing douchecanoe. Plus ça change.

Are there any other childhood memories you want to destroy in the cold harsh light of today? Man.

New boy in the neighborhood
Lives downstairs and it is understood.
He’s there just to take good care of me,
Like he’s one of the family.

Charles in Charge
Of our days and our nights
Charles in…

Eight Is Enough theme song

That was exquisitely suckful.

(Why do I remember the theme tune to The Waltons so well, but not the theme tune to Eight is Enough?)

I think that's because the theme song to Eight is Enough is entirely non-memorable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWMJoV0ozIM

The Waltons theme had that distinctive melody – starts with a trumpet it sounds…

(Why do I remember the theme tune to The Waltons so well, but not the theme tune to Eight is Enough?)

Well, given that Procreating Will Kill Us All, what's NZ's birth rate at the moment? Probably barely replacement level, right? So what are we freaking out…

I do think that it's of some significance that we now…

I don't think we need to actively try to encourage smaller families because that happens naturally anyway so long as you don't actively promote larger families.

I've taken this to mean no more reruns of "The Waltons", and "Eight is Enough".

While I’ll argue vehemently that we ought to provide better for all the children regardless of how big the family is, I’ll also argue that those people who do have big families are doing some harm to our planet – less harm than…

Some bring treasures with them. Others are never seen again.

Oh Ben you gloss over so much with a little statement like this, which appears to give balance.
That wobbly middle ground again.

It is utterly inappropriate to consider declining population a threat to our species at this point.

Bart, I didn't, and I don't. As you've gone to the trouble of quoting my facetious "sterilise a Brazilian" line as if it were something that I'd offered in all seriousness then I'm moved…

(Just a technical point, you understand).

Oh? So the resemblance is more than I'd thought.

My irredeemable nerdiness means that I heard this in Leonard-Nimoy-voice.

Gotcha! My Kirk voice says it simpler "Where do you get the RIGHT to try to control us???", shortly before banging one of the alien…

the population bomb argument

I, along with Martin, am finding this to be a sort…

Dont you mean use not receive. And whys that then?

Actually, I meant both. We don't use all of what we get, and we don't get all of what is there. The first ratio is much smaller than the second, though – from the Sun, the Earth looks like a…

Yeah but would you move there (to Changzou say) as a lifestyle choice.

No, but as you say, that's just me. I would also not move to South Auckland. It's not my 'hood. But I'm not about to say they should stop making babies down there, so I don't have…

No they didn't until you brought them and I find that really disappointing since you could have been constructive.

This is where I thought you invoked the population bomb argument:

I’ll also argue that those people who do have big families are doing some harm to our planet – less…

the 'number of children' thing was a passing suggestion by someone on another thread

Actually, I've checked and I'm wrong about that. First, Yamis raised the issue of family size and resources upthread.

What do people think about married couples who are both unemployed most of the time but continue…

I find it offensive that Ehrlich's Population Bomb arguments come up in a thread on Jackie's lovely post about the families she works with.

No they didn't until you brought them and I find that really disappointing since you could have been constructive.

What was said was we need to…

much as I hate this lecture
typo?

Arrrgh, yes, very typo. Much as I hate to miss this lecture, we are double booked...

much as I hate this lecture

typo?

We have some Prof. David Suzuki tickets – and this is his last lecture series before retiring into obscurity. He's here…

Worth remembering that the most populous country on the planet is now also the most productive (industrially). Humans are resources, at some level.

Yeah but would you move there (to Changzou say) as a lifestyle choice. And dont pretend you are a poor farmers child with no other choices or…

and who should pay for that etc

Actually most of the discussion has been about how to pay for the best care of the children. With a strong thread of "that family rorting the system by having lots of babies is a myth".

Who is obvious ... all of us.

So a family with no children would be even better for the planet? Or maybe we should all kill ourselves to achieve the best outcome for the planet?

and

Without children, we have no continuance

and

"save the rainforest, sterilise a Brazilian"

and

And the best way to stop this…

Whilst infinite expansion is unlikely to be tenable on Earth, I don't think we really know the actual figures on what this planet can support with real…

I’ll also argue that those people who do have big families are doing some harm to our planet – less harm than any merchant banker but more harm than…

do all of you really think that humanity can just carry on digging up, pumping out, etc., forever?

And the best way to stop this from happening is preventing people from having more than the officially sanctioned number of children? Really?

i think Bart is pointing out that we inhabit a finite planet with finite resources.

And I wonder how many 'exploit the earth or die – it's not a threat, it's a fact' types have been to Nauru or Easter Island?

Since this person despised my mother marrying my father...I am not, in my financially compromised current situation,…

- we do look after our own – but frequently, we need support from the state.

Once it's down to palliative care, the state is pretty much the only option for me and mine. Even if I knew where to buy morphine, my abilities don't extend beyond pushing the buzzer…

If we keep improving productivity, sustainability and the effectiveness of social supports then none of this matters.

It's a sign to me that we're falling into the same trap as Bill English by focusing only on costs rather than using our shared strengths to increase opportunities and value. Mindset is…

through
thorough
trough
thought
though
tough
bough
lough

Maybe we could see children as something other than a liability or a cost to society.

Yeah, it's all a bit too "save the rainforest, sterilise a Brazilian".

Still, having spent rather a lot of time lately visiting at the old folks' home, I'm noticing how at least 50% of…

I have no children. I've never wanted to have children, being the kind of human I am – BUT! Some of my sibs have…

I’ll also argue that those people who do have big families are doing some harm to our planet – less harm than any merchant banker but more harm than a family of 2 or 3 children

So a family with no children would be even better for the planet? Or…

It's a sign to me that we're falling into the same trap as Bill English by focusing only on costs rather than using our shared strengths to increase opportunities and value. Mindset is…

his arguments are nothing like eugenics

Apparently they sound closer than I would like them to. I welcome help avoiding that.

The point is reproducing is a responsibility and and not a right. It isn’t something to protected legally.

I believe it is actually protected. Just subject to balance against other rights.

You may be opposed to eugenics, but unfortunately, your arguments seem to suggest that you aren't.

Unfair Jackie. Sasha has been really clear and his arguments are nothing like eugenics.

Surely we don't think only fecund parents will be rorting the system?

But that’s not the point. They aren’t rorting the system they are rorting the children, intentionally or unintentionally. Our tendency is to focus solutions on the parents, by taxation or benefits. I argue if you focus the solution…

Are we suffering from a surplus of children in the country? No.

I agree this country has no surplus. But I disagree that this planet has no surplus. I am reluctant to ignore the planet as a whole simply because our little bit of it is jus’ fine. I'd also…

Why do we always have to frame our arguments in terms of making some niggardly, meanspirited douche grudgingly accept something? Why can't we just say 'fuck that guy! He's an asshole!'?

Oh, sometimes we can. Usually when we don't need to persuade such people politically or personally to consent to…

Why do we always have to frame our arguments in terms of making some niggardly, meanspirited douche grudgingly accept something?

Because I want to have these discussions with open-minded thinking nice people so I can understand the complexities of the issues.

If we don't have these discussions then the only…

How do you think other members of society might think about that proposition?

Well, OK, let me get a bit more meta. Why do we always have to frame our arguments in terms of making some niggardly, meanspirited douche grudgingly accept something? Why can't we just say 'fuck that guy!…

How do you think other members of society might think about that proposition? Again, I'm talking about competing claims, not about whether there's a basic right to reproduce or about what makes a good parent.

I feel fine. Next!

Slightly more seriously, we do a lot of things that might…

And in Europe there's all sorts of consiracy paranoia about the 'revenge of the cradle' and 'Eurabia' amongst certain hardline circles, such as Geert Wilders and Bat Ye'or. Surprisingly, the self-proclaimed libertarian Wilders is known…

To step back for a moment, I have to agree with Danielle:

Funnily enough,…

She has 8 – the last of whom are twins. Now, she and her husband are self employed. They bring in quite a lot of dosh. Imagine if he or she died. Imagine if their business turned to shit.

Jackie, I believe you're conflating supporting children who already exist with…

You may be opposed to eugenics, but unfortunately, your arguments seem to suggest that you aren't.

Fascinating. I've said clearly why I'm interested in this.

I have no broader agenda to stop people breeding. I've not said anything about preventing it for either individuals or groups, only about the competing…

Why would any particular family need to have 8 children in this day and age when they're all likely to survive into adulthood?

To look after me when I'm old, because my ex and I and our new spouses have exactly one child between us, and she's going to be…

let's look after them more and better

I support decent tax-funded services for all children.

These aren't niggly little details that could be worked out in implementation, they're reasons such a process could never be implemented without injustice.

But then reproductive rights are, well, a right, so injustice would be built in, no? And even if you somehow accepted that there is an objective number…

Why would any particular family need to have 8 children in this day and age when they're all likely to survive into adulthood?

WTH kind of a question is that?

they're reasons such a process could never be implemented without injustice

As I acknowledged up front, and thank you for elaborating. However, it doesn't seem to provide a particularly convincing defense against the Lindsay Mitchells of this world, let alone those murmuring watchers of One News who aren't wedded to…

How is it "punishment" for parents if society says it will only pay for say 3 children as others have suggested upthread? We can certainly agree its punishment for the children involved, but that's exactly what…

Do chip in.

This discussion is creepy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h45WnW0ASFY

By saying there is no unlimited right to have children? Hardly seems to qualify as harm or punishment.

If you're planning to just SAY it, no. Were you? Or, to repeat my previous question, how?

It's not, in fact, like this is actually a problem, is it?

Rampant bludging by breeding, no. The environment and social impacts of overpopulation or reduced quality of life/attention/resources for children from families living beyond their local means, possibly.

I'm interested in understanding how it might play into the theme…

Also, from a 'grrr, them's my taxes' point of view, what's the difference between one family with six kids, and three families with two kids?

Ah, but one family with six children is *profligate*! And also, that means they have been fucking with wild abandon, which is *icky*! Poverty-stricken families…

discourage (ie punish) parents

By saying there is no unlimited right to have children? Hardly seems to qualify as harm or punishment.

There's a difference between supporting children's current and future needs and setting up social arrangements that encourage parents to make more children.

a) Let's see some proof that they do, that people actually have children just for the money.

b) how is there a difference? I mean, in practical terms,…

And who is weaker and more vulnerable than a child?

People who had more than three children would have them because they wanted to.

Implies choice.

1. People don't always make good choices.

2. People…

(Basically, we're now framing this conversation the way the right wing wants us to, aren't we?)

Yes, and it honestly never ceases to amaze me.

Which clearly isn't going to be the case, it would cost us tens of billions of dollars…

I don't think the choice to create…

"the things the child should be getting" are really free-

is a whole ball of worms:

Didn't say it would be easy

is a whole ball of worms:

speaking as someone who has TWO highly trained midwife sisters, who have both worked here as domicillary midwives & in OZ, I know that all the wrong things are provided for a new born & Mum…

Instead why not make sure the things the child should be getting are really free.

That appeals

You really can't stop people having kids.

I'm no rightie, but how does that mean other people are obliged to pay for them?

having more children would just become less about the money than it presently is.

This is one of the most depressing sentences I have ever read.

how does this idea not impoverish all children of larger families? It's not their fault which family they're born into. And how many children are the result of planned pregnancies, anyhow?

This is why I much prefer thinking in terms of the child's entitlement. The benefit is not paid for…

when they really checked whakapapa, there was this huge history of twins...

human…

I Have people coming for Guy Fawkes in 38 minutes. I have just posted a long piece on another thread. I msut go check my 15 year old is…

Here's another thought to add to the discussion regarding large families: paying family benefit for each extra child is just a cost of the system, and we should grin and bear it, cheerfully.

I'm not a fan of Working for Families, because…

Bart: Please feel free to use my name when you are addressing my argument.

What do people think about married couples who are both unemployed most of the time but continue to add to their family despite the fact they are already…

And then what may be of use....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g&feature=player_embedded

I have one big quibble with this but I'll let it ride for the mo'

I don't think it's a question of dividing up the same pool of money between those with and those without children, or comparing their value.

With any finite pool of money if you make decision to fund one thing then you are by default choosing not to fund something else.…

Vikings from the Orkneys, purported to worship various gods (mainly aspects of nature.)

including otters...?

The question itself is an oblique angle on the abortion law.

I don't wish to get into this conversation other than to sign post it.

Shit.

Luck, luck, luck

-it was never always good-

I have to crash for now.…

So turns the wheel of fortune...

"Help". One of of english's lovelier words. :)

one part of my ancestry, Vikings from the Orkneys, purported to worship various gods (mainly aspects of nature.) The one true -element – rather than god/ess- they actually worshipped was luck...

If you read saga, again and again, 'luck' is…

It's great that your neighbours are doing a good job – maybe they'll produce really good citizens, who understand life from the inside.

Plus, life is so unpredictable. I live in a bit of a rough area, and one of the girls in the next street over used to play…

(I'll stop there so as not to hijack the thread any more than I already have. Even though I have sooo many questions!)

Did you go?

Yep

What do people think about married couples who are both unemployed most of the time but continue to add to their family despite the fact they are already in state housing...

Hi Yamis: the trouble is, when you start to pass judgement on individuals it's hard not to turn that…

Thanks for the link, Sacha. :)

and there's a TEDx global site now, for fans

Sadly far too many of them are caught in the poverty trap without developing the basic educational tools (academic and behavioural) to fight their way out. By the time Year 11, 12, 13 roll around the ships sailed.

Hey sorry Yamis but, isn't that where we figure out that your…

i know the boy is there somewhere in the room with me,... he needs me no longer.

This,
Poetry.
Missing you and your words which, you just brought to light .and it took a fine woman. :)

Tolley is elsewhere for a while

Pretty certain she has always been on another planet

I've just been reading a book on this – called The Life that Lives on Man – we are real estate for a plethora of beasties from bacterium to bed-bugs...

:- )

Yes, kids are particularly contagious.

But I know what you mean, Kindergartens and Playcentres are great incubators for…

I don't think having kids in care is necessarily worse than being at home fulltime provided the care is good and the children benefit.

Fear not! The Hand Mirror linked to a study which basically proved this, quite recently (does anyone have that link, she asks lazily?). At the moment…

So...we are doing the right thing by having child care centres so that parents (both...?) can go out to work and be acceptable contributors to society.

It's a question my wife and I wrestle with. We've got two kids at home, one 5+ and one almost eighteen months, and we…

[Ryall] pissed me off too when he said this decision by the schools to boycott sending in their targets to the MOE was going to jeopardise the children's education.

Massey education academics say it's ill-tested standards that are likely to harm children.

Dr O'Neill suspected most boards and parents were becoming…

It's the kids. They ooze life, preschoolers.

I've just been reading a book on this – called The Life that Lives on Man – we are real estate for a plethora of beasties from bacterium to bed-bugs...
:- )

But I know what you mean, Kindergartens and Playcentres are great…

gotta say Ryall on the telly tonight, made me rather angry

He pissed me off too when he said this decision by the schools to boycott sending in their targets to the MOE was going to jeopardise the children's education. It's not going to change what's happening in the classroom…

the endless march of parenting, alone

Yes. Beautifully said, Che. I've felt it myself, but only from time to time when my husband has been away, once for over a month. It was hard, hard, work. But I had support, and I knew it would end. It must be so…

It's the kids. They ooze life, preschoolers.

Yes. there's no question that working with young un's is some of the hardest work there is . It takes bundles of patience and energy while requiring the most delicate sensitivity. I'd never have what it takes.

desiderium

Thanks for this word Islander,…

Actually, I think I know partly…

How much worse can the National Standards dispute get? Somehow it isn't yet DEFCON1, but it's close at the very least.

What elevated concepts such as harshness and hardness to the forefront of our social inventory and what compels them to retain this position?

1. Capitalism building on patriarchy.
2. The apparent paradox that we can't challenge these ideas safely unless we are in a position of power over those who…

gotta say Ryall on the telly tonight, made me rather angry (chatting with an interviewer in a matching suit)

Speaking of suits. From a SCIBLOG blog about the “Re-setting science and innovation (in NZ) for the next 20 years”

The second talk that stood out for me was…

But I think the point…

gotta say Ryall on the telly tonight, made me rather angry (chatting with an interviewer in a matching suit)

When did he become 'Acting Minister of Education' (suggesting he is only pretending to be a minister?).

What is it with those guy and their mis-matched striped suits and shirts and…

Tony "education is bad for the taxpayer" Ryall

gotta say Ryall on the telly tonight, made me rather angry (chatting with an interviewer in a matching suit) spouting words to the effect that the 220 school boards, parents, etc refusing to implement National Standards were doing so for political reasons...…

A society that really valued children wouldn't be so cruel to those trying to raise them alone.

Indeed, a society that really valued *children* would put them foremost.

That reminds me of a Gene 'Demon' Simmons (of all people) quote.

Kids should…

"A society that really valued children wouldnt be so cruel to those trying to raise them alone."

Agreed, Hilary Stace. Indeed, a society that really valued *children* would put them foremost.

The 2 matters go together, Isabel & Hilary's comments.

Our society seems to value…