Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: Market failure in the research world

linger

Sat, 16 Dec 2017 19:39:27 +1300

Other than the original serious issue raised — that much of the research for which access is being charged is publicly-funded and therefore should be made available without the publishers' price-gouging profit margin — the basic issue exposed in the cross-university comparison is the lack of transparency in how institutional…

Rob Stowell

Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:55:19 +1300

UC seems to be getting an absolutely standard package and I would be surprised if it differed much from what the others get.

Ouch. This needs investigating!

Mark C. Wilson

Thu, 14 Dec 2017 14:22:32 +1300

Cost per academic/research staff member.

Canterbury 2013 2135.3116
Canterbury 2014 2240.5300
Canterbury 2015 2420.2169
Canterbury 2016 2481.9282

These are in USD and much higher than the mean for all universities. You should check the raw data linked in the article for more (https://figshare.com/articles/Universities_final_replies/5656054) – it is hard to be sure…

linger

Thu, 14 Dec 2017 13:28:45 +1300

One bullet point (the claim that Canterbury is being charged a higher rate for access than other universities) doesn't seem explicitly supported by any part of the data summary; presumably that finding is based on a comparison of costs for matched titles, rather than the overall cost figure?

Sacha

Thu, 14 Dec 2017 10:31:19 +1300

onya

Mark C. Wilson

Wed, 13 Dec 2017 16:22:26 +1300

In case anyone checks this thread for some reason: after over 3 years I succeeded in getting the data requested: see https://theconversation.com/universities-spend-millions-on-accessing-results-of-publicly-funded-research-88392

Hilary Stace

Mon, 01 Dec 2014 08:56:51 +1300

I'm also a fan of the Australian academic/journalism site The Conversation. It presents international and local research in a very accessible way.

Hilary Stace

Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:39:30 +1300

On the other hand you can turn aspects of your research into blog posts. No academic glory from that but you get out to the community and get some feedback. Some of my posts in the Access blog have come straight out of my PhD. My research was largely funded…

Mark C. Wilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 21:03:20 +1300

OTOH, I am aware of several open-source publications (usually, ones that also ask authors for up-front fees) that have highly questionable rubber-stamp peer-review processes.

Of course there are plenty of predatory publishers, many quite laughably obvious. Beall’s list is generally reliable, despite its compiler’s blatant anti-OA bias. For…

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 18:35:39 +1300

There is also a PhD By Publication, which is another beast.

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 18:33:24 +1300

There is another entrant in the push to get published. It is the PhD With Publication. I am currently supervising one and although the guidelines recommend 3-4 published articles as the core of the thesis, my student has included seven. There are advantages; your work gets more widely noticed (as…

Angela Hart

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 15:03:40 +1300

All the university libraries I have been to are pretty much "walk in and use". Even the computer don't need a login/password unless you want to reserve something. Most academic search engines allow you to e-mail a paper to yourself so you can hop on a computer, search and e-mail…

BenWilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 14:52:06 +1300

and I have somewhat mixed feelings about it

That's the bit I want to hear about. The rest I believe, from what you and others have said. Is it for better, or worse? Because large slices of self-belief and ego could possibly NOT stand in the way of most of…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 14:39:02 +1300

I and almost all my colleagues have rather large egos in some sense, or we wouldn’t be doing research at all.

I’ll trust you on whether that is actually so, but have to ask, do you think it’s a good thing that it is so?

It's part of the selection…

Anton Angelo

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 14:12:02 +1300

Institutional repositories are hampered by copyright restrictions laid on them by publishers that are agreed to by the authors. Researchers can, and do change the conditions of their publishing agreements.

Repositories are an important factor for creating 'overlay' journals – where material of sufficient quality is edited and republished, re-creating…

linger

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:32:22 +1300

the glamour journals have higher rates of retractions. This could be read in several ways, without comparing the reliability of the pre-publication peer-review processes involved:
(i) Readers of lower-profile journals don’t subject articles to the same level of post-publication peer review, resulting in fewer retractions; and/or
(ii) Greater competition for…

BenWilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:29:11 +1300

But how often are these people publishing with PhD students or earlier career researchers and feel like they can’t risk it?

Yes, they've already risked 10 years of their lives by that point. But I've often thought that they don't see it that way at all, and that it seemed…

BenWilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:20:54 +1300

James Green

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:13:38 +1300

What I find amazing is how few obviously successful people do break free in this way.

But how often are these people publishing with PhD students or earlier career researchers and feel like they can't risk it? I would strongly prefer to go down OA routes, but I am extremely…

richard

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 13:00:07 +1300

So long as researchers themselves personally value these exclusive journals so highly, this can not change. This can only get worse.

It is easy to over-estimate the extent to which exclusive journals like Science and Nature drive this, as they represent a tiny fraction of all academic publication. Moreover, they…

Mark C. Wilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:48:12 +1300

So to me the question is: Why do you value them so highly? Are they really providing you with value? I don’t just mean the value of being published in them, but the actual reading of them. Is their ability to pick out the good research from the bad really…

Some Stats

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:20:45 +1300

I miss your point...the argument is not that green open access replaces publishing to a restricted access venue, but augments it. Publish where you like but put a preprint somewhere it can be accessed by all.

BenWilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:14:41 +1300

Sadly that isn’t true. My employer, a CRI, has very specific policies about staff web sites.

Right, as I expected. So,

We very very very rarely get told we can’t publish.

quite specifically excluded the most obvious and easy form of publishing implicitly. In the context of the discussion that…

81stcolumn

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:04:11 +1300

The article seems to conflate the basic value and function of what is described as "Green" and "Gold" access (quite patronisingly too).

I place high value on repositories as a means of preserving and distributing work, but they are not, and transparently do not serve the same function as Journals.…

Some Stats

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:10:22 +1300

The cost of open access is not high in any field as there is always the "green" open access solution which is, generally, free.

See Guardian blog Open access: six myths to put to rest that Mark linked to above.

81stcolumn

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 11:00:35 +1300

Some thoughts in no particular order.
i) The cost of open publishing is high in my field where there is pretty much no research money it is prohibitive. In fairness to my boss choosing between open journals and extending an RA contract for a month is a bit of a…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:57:14 +1300

You could publish directly onto the internet at no more cost than the effort of setting up the site.

Sadly that isn't true. My employer, a CRI, has very specific policies about staff web sites. It's a matter some considerable annoyance to me that my colleagues and collaborators in Universities…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:52:29 +1300

It is perhaps field-dependent

Very much so. The "hard sciences" are way ahead of us in that respect.

I don't begrudge some of the fee because it costs money to have could copy editors and good admin staff at a journal. But some journals are milking it.

MattMcGregor

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:47:12 +1300

Also cheap is a relative term, generally it costs around $3000 for us to publish in an open access journal!

It's worth pointing out that, according to the Directory of Open Access Journals, most open access journals don't charge processing charges (APCs) According to Heather Morrison, the figure is 26%…

BenWilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:45:40 +1300

It’s quite another for me to make that decision for an early career scientist who is on the paper as well and the technician and my collaborators.

I'd expect you to sell it to them first, rather than just make the decision.

Also cheap is a relative term, generally it…

Mark C. Wilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:41:55 +1300

I am a huge supporter of open access journals. But I’d point out they aren’t free. There is almost always a “page charge” even for internet-only journals to cover admin costs. That charge isn’t paid by the libraries but by the researcher = tax payer.

It is perhaps field-dependent, but…

Mark C. Wilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:35:48 +1300

To get promotions and pay rises in almost any research organisation means you have to convince the accountants* who run all those organisations that your science is any good. Since those accountants neither understand nor care about the science you do they simplistically rely on “standard metrics” and that means…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:19:19 +1300

and you can’t just publish without permission if you don’t own the research.

It's not quite about permission. We very very very rarely get told we can't publish.

But when we do publish we have a responsibility to all the authors to publish in the place that is best for…

BenWilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:44:38 +1300

But we don’t control our research finances at all.

No but you can publish quite cheaply. However, I take your point that the research itself is not cheap, and you can't just publish without permission if you don't own the research.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:29:11 +1300

Yes. It’s an extreme form of objective alienation, considering how smart the victims are, and how much influence they can wield, and even just considering their own personal finances.

But we don't control our research finances at all. The Universities and CRIs in NZ and most research institutes worldwide have…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:25:52 +1300

I am a huge supporter of open access journals. But I'd point out they aren't free. There is almost always a "page charge" even for internet-only journals to cover admin costs. That charge isn't paid by the libraries but by the researcher = tax payer.

I'm also aware that while…

BenWilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:10:49 +1300

The depressing thing is that researchers themselves are probably the only ones who can fix the system, and the technical problems are trivial.

Yes. It's an extreme form of objective alienation, considering how smart the victims are, and how much influence they can wield, and even just considering their own…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:10:13 +1300

I think in a world where simple minded beanies decide funding based on simple minded metrics like ‘number of articles published in reputable peer review journals’ you may have hit on a critical aspect of the problem.

What he said.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 09:09:17 +1300

If academics were to set up their own peer review system, perhaps using an open source model, is there any reason more research could not be published online for all the world to see?

We are.

eLife
The Frontiers family of journals
and PLOS
are all prestigious examples of completely…

Mark C. Wilson

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 08:01:05 +1300

For those interested in delving into the mess that scholarly publishing is now in, these slides by Bjoern Brembs are a good start. I tried to keep the post focused on a single issue, but as noted in the comments there are many other related problems.

The depressing…

Caleb D'Anvers

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 06:24:53 +1300

And also when it comes time to getting work published…they of course will always go for the most prestigious title. We need to come to some kind of agreement to confer prestige in other ways.
Yes. But early career academics are socialized into this right from the very beginning, so…

Caleb D'Anvers

Thu, 27 Nov 2014 05:27:49 +1300

Do you get the sense that NZ universities encourage faculty to act in a way that furthers open availability of research they produce?

Interestingly, in the UK any journal publications arising out of research directly funded by one of the big funding councils (RCUK) have to be available on open-access.…

mpledger

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 23:05:33 +1300

Russell Brown, in reply to Angela Hart, About 11 hours ago
AH: They have many disadvantages including excluding people without access to research libraries.

RB: Yes, very much this. I'm one of those people and I am regularly stymied by this fact.

~~
All the university libraries I have been…

BenWilson

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 21:54:13 +1300

Who'd a thunk that a commercialized model of academia could lead to the commercialization of access to academic research?

JC Carter

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:31:01 +1300

I work in the commercial setting and paper access is an absolute abomination. Can easily spend 5grand on one general review as our library service has minimal access to publications, and all outside publications are purchased either directly -~50$ apiece, or worse through places like infotrieve – who have pricing…

Mandy S

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 17:01:56 +1300

As a librarian I have been quietly outraged by this situation for many years. I would like to point out that my colleagues in the tertiary library sector have been proactive in trying to set up structures that would support new paradigms in academic publishing, digital repositories and so on.…

nzlemming

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:31:28 +1300

Amusingly, the librarians started discussing by email how to get rid of me, while not noticing (for a while) that I was being copied on all the emails.

Research skills, FTW!

Rob Stowell

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:28:00 +1300

There are definite moves towards open source to counter this racket (consider that academics who are largely paid by the public to research, have to further dip into their research funds to get published by private companies who then charge university libraries (ie the public paying again) for very limited…

keeaa

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:48:33 +1300

cutting their budget makes no sense, even to bean counters

I wish you were right, but unfortunately William Ray's original stirring up of this issue has resulted in the wrong questions being asked in some quarters.

Mark C. Wilson

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:45:06 +1300

I strongly encourage you to consider doing this using Open Journal Systems, and keeping it owned by a nonprofit organization. There are plenty of such journals. Even if you don't do everything yourself on the technical side, PKP (the makers of OJS) offer a cheap hosting option. Don't get involved…

Geoff Lealand

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:28:35 +1300

Springer are best avoided. A couple of years back I had to pay more than $100 to get a copy of a Springer-published, edited collection I had contributed to.

Angela Hart

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:26:34 +1300

you are probably right there, although under the present conditions, the libraries do not have a choice, they must provide access to the information and have little control over the cost of that. So cutting their budget makes no sense, even to bean counters- provided they accept the premise that…

Geoff Lealand

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:24:41 +1300

Thank you Mark for this most useful--but a little disturbing--commentary. It is also timely as I am on the editorial board of an Australian journal which is about to plunge into the murky waters of commercial publishing. It is a highly regarded journal and was ranked as an A journal…

keeaa

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:52:02 +1300

By all means try to change the domination of research publishing by the big publishers – I'm fully in agreement there. But attacking it from the angle of library spending is a very dangerous tactic.

Angela Hart

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:40:53 +1300

All that camapigning on this issue is likely to do is draw negative attention to research library budgets and cause them to be cut – result: even less access for N.Z. researchers.

Welcome keeaa! But I don't agree with your implication that we should keep quiet and do nothing.

mccx

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:39:28 +1300

You must realise that libraries in little old NZ (even the biggest ones) have absolutely no power to change these agreements with the multinational publishers.

I agree, but you could say the same things about Pharmac, so I'm reluctant to say there's no hope for improvement.

keeaa

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:28:00 +1300

Would it potentially reduce the cost of journal subscriptions for NZ universities (and SOEs etc.) if they negotiated or shared access as a consortium instead of as individual institutions?

As bmk has already said, the universities have been doing consortium buying for years. And so do the CRIs.

You must…

James Green

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 13:24:47 +1300

The big problem is how to get from where we are now, to any one of these alternative futures. It is a big collective action problem, and researchers are pretty decentralized and governed by career imperatives

I think as long as the Impact Factor (another expensive paid product) of the…

Adam H

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:56:42 +1300

PS. This sounds like a job for Super-ComCom:

Adam H

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:53:19 +1300

The only benefits of the journals are .... prestige.

I think in a world where simple minded beanies decide funding based on simple minded metrics like 'number of articles published in reputable peer review journals' you may have hit on a critical aspect of the problem.

I tried repeatedly to…

Mark C. Wilson

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:53:15 +1300

If academics were to set up their own peer review system, perhaps using an open source model, is there any reason more research could not be published online for all the world to see?

I didn't want to get into this issue in deail (though I alluded to it in…

Mark C. Wilson

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:47:03 +1300

Do you get the sense that NZ universities encourage faculty to act in a way that furthers open availability of research they produce?

Not nearly as much as I would like. Fairly weak (in my opinion) "mandates" are starting to appear (e.g. Lincoln, Waikato). Auckland is definitely encouraging uploading of…

Mark C. Wilson

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:43:48 +1300

Hi Mark, do you mind saying specifically what you asked for under the OIA?

I varied the wording a little. An example (Universty of Auckland request):

From http://statistics.caul.edu.au/inst_data.php I can see how much Auckland spends on serials (nearly $15 million in 2013 – may be in Australian $). I…

William Ray

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:31:43 +1300

Hi Mark, do you mind saying specifically what you asked for under the OIA? From the text of those replies it looks like they are refusing to even give a basic dollar figure which is odd given that info is already public...

BTW [[http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/255421/research-publishers-costing-taxpayers| I looked into the cost of…

bmk

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:26:15 +1300

Would it potentially reduce the cost of journal subscriptions for NZ universities (and SOEs etc.) if they negotiated or shared access as a consortium instead of as individual institutions? This might also reconcile the fact that specific resources are available at some NZ universities and not others (especially electronic resources),…

nzlemming

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:14:05 +1300

If academics were to set up their own peer review system, perhaps using an open source model, is there any reason more research could not be published online for all the world to see?

You're preaching revolution, madam!!

Yes, they could do this but, while the big publisher brands hold…

nzlemming

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:08:12 +1300

Jesus, that film made me angry. Inspired, but angry.

I don't often cry at movies, but that one made me well up.

Sacha

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:58:31 +1300

you can’t contract out of the OIA (as explained in the Ombudsman’s notes on s9(2)(ba)).

good to know, thanks.

Idiot Savant

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:40:43 +1300

Where information has been refused, you should ask for detailed grounds under s19(a)(ii), including the specific harm they believe will eventuate if the information is released. But it looks as if they're ultimately relying on the confidentiality clause, and that in itself is illegal as you can't contract out of…

Russell Brown

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:34:13 +1300

They have many disadvantages including excluding people without access to research libraries.

Yes, very much this. I'm one of those people and I am regularly stymied by this fact.

mccx

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 11:24:46 +1300

Angela Hart

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:35:37 +1300

If academics were to set up their own peer review system, perhaps using an open source model, is there any reason more research could not be published online for all the world to see? The only benefits of the journals are peer review, grouping work in fields and prestige. They…

Russell Brown

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:24:56 +1300

If you went to the NZIFF, The Internet’s Own Boy explored this territory.

Jesus, that film made me angry. Inspired, but angry.

Kumara Republic

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:23:15 +1300

If you went to the NZIFF, The Internet's Own Boy explored this territory.

What you write about seems to be symptomatic of a wider neo-feudalist malaise. A malaise where Aaron Swartz is regarded by the authorities as more dangerous than Timothy McVeigh, and financiers who were responsible for the Great…

Public Address

Wed, 26 Nov 2014 10:23:15 +1300

Discussion from blog post.