Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: Let's talk about class

Barnard

Wed, 21 May 2014 15:59:37 +1200

Why do it in the street when you've the internet & social media?
Challenging 'hegemonic' ideas is all well & good, But finding examples of what I'm talking about isn't exactly difficult nor the idea that 'white liberals' are often the 'enemy'. Nor is the criticism that it leads to a regressive…

Danielle

Wed, 21 May 2014 13:39:31 +1200

the idea no matter how enlightened men will always be part of the ‘patriarchy’, white people will always be part of a ‘white supremacy’

So, basically what you're arguing here is that "identity politics" (for want of a better term) on the left is unable to distinguish between structural inequalities…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 21 May 2014 13:38:17 +1200

Class action...
As Jeffrey Paparoa Holman says, "this is a ballad designed to be read, aloud, in public places, an incantation, an imprecation almost, against the Medusa faces of corporate capitalism."

Feel free to pass it on
or print and put it up,
people helping people...

__ ( thanks to…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 21 May 2014 13:28:47 +1200

two tragedies are likely to spring to mind: the Canterbury earthquakes and Pike River Mine. Both struck the nation by surprise: prior to the first Canterbury quakes, no one even knew there was a fault line sitting restlessly below the Canterbury plains.

No one?
How about [[http://ecan.govt.nz/publications/General/q-files-earthquake-booklet-2008.pdf | eCan back…

Bob Williams

Wed, 21 May 2014 10:10:02 +1200

I first came to New Zealand in 1987 on holiday (I moved here the following year). In a dingy pub somewhere off Lambton Quay I got talking to a, then, fairly well known academic. I was given their business card. It said “Senior Lecturer in social stratification”. “What in God’s…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 21 May 2014 09:40:08 +1200

The idea that you could support the idea of marriage equality, for the identical reason you care about Pike river, namely justice, and that justice need not be tied to either class or narrow definitions of identify, or be limited by your own 'privilege' seems to have been lost by…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 21 May 2014 09:31:21 +1200

which will make company directors and officers accountable

No it doesn't. All it does is force senior executives to ensure that they can prove they have told staff what should be done – if they can show that (sign in sheet for the seminar) they are absolved of liability.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:56 +1200

Real class...
Key disagrees with critics who say drone killings are execution without trial, in which ordinary people are massacred.
"For the most part drone strikes have been an effective way of prosecuting people that are legitimate targets," he said
That man has a very warped idea of prosecution,
must…

Biobbs

Wed, 21 May 2014 07:54:38 +1200

I don't know where certain people have gotten the idea that "eco-nuts" were responsible for Pike River happening because they wouldn't allow strip-mining

From the Herald of course. With this piece of 'responsible journalism' just a few days after the event:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10690389

– the blubbery one, Kiwibl*g, Paul Holmes (Herald…

Rich Lock

Wed, 21 May 2014 05:53:33 +1200

Thing is never expect middle class liberals to fight a class war

Bingo. Asking middle class liberals to be more class-conscious and at the same time expecting them to fight or care for the working class is a contradiction.

But the proles, if only they could somehow become conscious of…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 21 May 2014 01:15:13 +1200

I suppose it's the same old story of the "no mines at any cost" so-called "loony" element being played up in the media, vs the more pragmatic approach of those actually doing the work (and the majority of Green voters, I suspect).

I don't know where certain people have gotten…

Sacha

Tue, 20 May 2014 22:54:10 +1200

As you say, justice is a better unifying concept. What's right resonates. In New Zealand, fairness is also surely a core value to come back to.

Barnard

Tue, 20 May 2014 22:18:28 +1200

To see 'identity politics' as it's come to be practiced as simply another name for 'civil rights' is to completely miss the point, and the problem. In fact those most wedded to it would dismiss 'civil rights' just as much as any of the 'old left' would reject reform within…

william blake

Tue, 20 May 2014 20:55:56 +1200

Thanks for the link Lance, I don't see how new legislation will improve occupational safety and health if the prosecution of it is not really backed by political will.

Peter Whittall and PRM were prosecuted in such a way as they could never be retried in court. The fine was…

Kevin Hague

Tue, 20 May 2014 20:06:01 +1200

Thanks Tracy – much appreciated! (And good points!)

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 20 May 2014 19:52:10 +1200

Thanks for the extra detail, and I’ll do my own foot-shuffling for being sucked in by media biases I’m actually fully aware of!

Hey, that's why I like recording Question time and debates. It's in the real . Warts an'all. I love that the camera catches faces of all of…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 20 May 2014 19:39:49 +1200

Thanks for the extra detail, and I’ll do my own foot-shuffling for being sucked in by media biases I’m actually fully aware of!

Sacha

Tue, 20 May 2014 19:27:46 +1200

Thanks, Lance.

LanceWiggs

Tue, 20 May 2014 19:25:11 +1200

Outrage and revenge are one thing, and I'm as disappointed and saddened as everyone. Reading the first par of the book was enough to signal that Pike River was well out of control.
However the main result from Pike River and a host of other preventable tragedies is the upcoming…

TracyMac

Tue, 20 May 2014 18:51:40 +1200

No intention to ring your bell, Kevin. I think the parliamentary Greens are doing a hell of a lot for workers' rights, and certainly get more bang for the buck on these issues than Labour is right now.

As someone who votes Green, but is not a party member, I'm…

Russell Brown

Tue, 20 May 2014 18:31:13 +1200

Didn’t Labour initiate a review far too late in their term whose recommendations the Nats ignored when they came into office?

I think that’s covered in the Proposals for Reform part of the Royal Commission’s report:

In 2005 the government issued a 10-year strategy to improve New Zealand’s poor record…

Sacha

Tue, 20 May 2014 18:21:43 +1200

Labour made no meaningful change in government. Both governments were warned there was a problem.

Didn't Labour initiate a review far too late in their term whose recommendations the Nats ignored when they came into office?

Russell Brown

Tue, 20 May 2014 18:14:51 +1200

What government was in power for most of the decade prior to Pike River? Who were the founders of the main party in that government and where was that party founded?

I’ll ignore your attempt to troll.

The big change to mining regulation came with the 1992 Health and Safety…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 20 May 2014 18:14:17 +1200

Elderly friends, in their eighties, living in a comfortable retirement complex run by the “notorious for its slack care standards” Ryman. Elderly couple…if I were applying the same UK class distinctions I was raised on, are definately ‘working class’. Hard workers, hard savers.

There's definitely a class system in NZ,…

Tinakori

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:58:06 +1200

What government was in power for most of the decade prior to Pike River? Who were the founders of the main party in that government and where was that party founded?

Sacha

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:56:30 +1200

working to uncover what had occurred at Pike River, and then to achieve mine safety improvements, has been one of my main areas of work as an MP

and I for one have really appreciated it. thank you Kevin.

Sacha

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:53:51 +1200

we are not talking about class

We are however talking about poverty and inequality. Maybe those terms resonate more in this country now?

Sacha

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:52:04 +1200

Some may have felt that financial compensation was worth it

I don't think any of the families were asking for it. Recall how they reacted to the trade-off that the court and insurers facilitated to secure Whittall walking scot-free.

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:39:49 +1200

We all (and I include myself here) seem to be too busy with our own wee lives to break out for the greater good.

I’d like to think I care enough to have empathy for others. I like to think I can put others well being before mine and I…

Rosemary McDonald

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:32:24 +1200

the left, and the politically aware and articulate have been part of that agitation — I would argue they have not.

Methinks, perhaps, these people are suffering from outrage overload.

Or simply resigned to the fact that that is just how it is.

As for discussions about "class"....are New Zealanders…

Kevin Hague

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:24:39 +1200

Sorry Tracy, but you pushed some of my buttons! I don't think it's fair to accuse the Green Party of "foot shuffling" on this issue. Indeed, working to uncover what had occurred at Pike River, and then to achieve mine safety improvements, has been one of my main areas of…

Graham Dunster

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:19:02 +1200

We have the government that we deserve, collectively. And we accept the framework that the government gives us, as far as I can judge. There are a few commentators who rail against the status quo – Chris Trotter (http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/) and Gordon Campbell (http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/) stand out – but their entreaties only…

Rob Stowell

Tue, 20 May 2014 17:16:27 +1200

Nicholas Davidson on the trail of responsibility and negligence –
http://youtu.be/xhdsW4guCTA

Di White

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:57:54 +1200

Rosemary, I totally agree. And I have never doubted for one second that there are a lot of people out there agitating for action and accountability on Pike.

The issue I was referring to was whether the left, and the politically aware and articulate have been part of that agitation…

Di White

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:51:34 +1200

William, I felt exactly the same. I felt like I was being "punked": how could this happen, and how could it be, as you put it, the PM's door was still standing. I get that some people will say there was judicial accountability (in that the company, albeit defunct, was…

Russell Brown

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:50:49 +1200

Seriously needs discussion Russell.

Another post, perhaps????

Yes. It would be a good one for Access.

Russell Brown

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:50:11 +1200

Or the slow motion disaster that is unfolding in our forests.

Absolutely.

Helen Kelly's speech to the Labour Party conference last year.

Rosemary McDonald

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:22:44 +1200

(Although, as someone with a close interest in disability issues, I feel slightly allergic to the word "ableism".)

Seriously needs discussion Russell.

Another post, perhaps????

Rosemary McDonald

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:16:49 +1200

Diane, my only memory of my paternal grandfather is of him paralysed and bedridden after a pitfall in the coalmine he worked in some years before I was born.

So every mining disaster triggers an automatic response of fear, grief, anger and a deep empathy for the families of those…

richard

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:16:15 +1200

Pike River was on about the same scale as the recent disaster in Turkey, relative the size of our country — people SHOULD be out in the streets about this. Or the slow motion disaster that is unfolding in our forests.

Ironically, at the same time you can find any…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:05:40 +1200

Again, a mining company is "big business", and even Labour wants to position itself as "corporation friendly" .

Back in late 2013 I remember, and there was this from Cunliffe about Pike River Miners families. I recall Cunliffe trying time and time again to raise this in the House and…

Russell Brown

Tue, 20 May 2014 16:00:23 +1200

With Pike River, I keep coming back to what my brother-in-law, a miner in Australia told me about several of his mates who took up contracts at Pike River. They arrived on site, saw what was going on and walked off and went home.

If they could see it, then…

izogi

Tue, 20 May 2014 15:35:37 +1200

Both tragedies were characterised by high death tolls, and both showed the impact of the National Government’s deregulation agenda in the 1990s – and the failure of subsequent Labour Governments to reverse those changes.

I think the problem goes back even further than that, if you consider [[http://www.windy.gen.nz/index.php/archives/583|the 1995 Cave…

TracyMac

Tue, 20 May 2014 15:26:21 +1200

Co-signed. I'm glad that the article and this comment don't throw civil rights/"identity politics" under the bus. A fair society should be fair to everyone, whatever boxes your identity ticks.

That said, economic fairness is fundamental – I'm afraid that as a queer person, I care a lot less about…

giovanni tiso

Tue, 20 May 2014 15:23:49 +1200

Thing is never expect middle class liberals to fight a class war

Bingo. Asking middle class liberals to be more class-conscious and at the same time expecting them to fight or care for the working class is a contradiction.

Euan Mason

Tue, 20 May 2014 15:13:53 +1200

Diane,

Thanks for this. It's a timely reminder of an abominable series of events. Clearly everyone concerned would have wished life for the miners, but if Whittall made decisions that contributed to their deaths then he should have been held accountable. In my view dropping charges was a mistake. Some…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 20 May 2014 14:05:26 +1200

For me it isn't being numb, it's a feeling of being unable to change anything. I was one of the many that voted out the National government of the 90's and their horrific drive to deregulate everything, based on a simplistic ideology of private is better.

But instead of reversing…

AceMcWicked

Tue, 20 May 2014 14:03:07 +1200

I think there is always a lot made of the left being split by ‘old left’ type issues (workers rights, welfare activism etc) and the ‘new left’, and usually framed as more fashionable ‘identity politics’ and environmental activism. I am not sure how they break along class lines, though I…

william blake

Tue, 20 May 2014 13:56:19 +1200

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9768680/Whittall-part-of-Pike-deal

I did think at the time this letter was disclosed that a path would be beaten to the PM's door and the government would collapse, Whittall brought to (judicial) account, and re regulation in dangerous industry would naturally follow. I suppose I'm just young and naive.

The same protocol…

bob daktari

Tue, 20 May 2014 13:56:10 +1200

As much as I agree with you on the battles that Pike should spark – those same flash points are found in the world of beneficiaries and the seemingly lack of care and action surrounding the vast number of the young who are under employed (if lucky) or simply stagnating…

Public Address

Tue, 20 May 2014 13:56:10 +1200

Discussion from blog post.