A spokeswoman for Mr Carter said the question was the minister's standard response to messages against the Electoral Finance Bill.

"He was making a point about people trying to buy elections. He's trying to make the point that the Exclusive Brethren tried to influence the 2005 election secretly."

I dunno…

I suppose it's more honest than just emailing back with:
"the Minister thanks you for your comments, which have been noted"

Well, Rich, I guess I draw a line between being 'honest' and 'robust' and needing some time out on the naughty step to consider the appropriate tone for a…

I suppose it's more honest than just emailing back with:
"the Minister thanks you for your comments, which have been noted"

A young opponent of the Electoral Finance Bill was taken aback when Education Minister Chris Carter replied with a one-sentence email asking: "Are you a member of the Exclusive Brethren?"

Simeon Brown has emailed all…

Surely that renders complaints about not being able to get up on a Monday for the…

The government went into the EFB seeking the broadest coalition of parties it could – but the blunt fact is that if you are unwilling to contribute the numbers to help a bill pass, you get no input – it's that simple.

OK... I don't think I'm the one who's…

I/S – If the government is so scrupulous on the EFB, why didn't the select committee travel to Auckland to take submissions there as well?

Because despite its pretensions, Auckland isn't the capital.

Select Committees sometimes travel to other centres to hear submissions, but its relatively rare, and there's no…

I/S, OK, so you're down on National, but don't you find it just a bit troubling that Labour is prepared to rush thru poorly conceived legislation in order to increase its chances of electoral sucess?

I don't accept the premise. The bill is there to fix the serious problems in…

Now I understand that the bill is just leveling the playing field and understand the…

Oh, come on Idiot/Savant... it seem pretty clear from the beginning that Labour wasn't interested in having National involved in the formulation of this bill from the beginning

And it was very clear from the beginning that national simply wasn't interested in real reform. They thought that everything they did…

The direction of that departure is the direction that Burma has gone, but a fine is still much less worrisome than the violence we've seen recently in Burma.

Hmm. I haven't done a survey, but I don't think anyone has been arrested/dragged off/killed, for failing to give their name and…

making it hard for members of smaller parties Act and the Maaori Party to always have someone present.

The…

I'd find it easier to take National's complaints seriously if they'd ever tried to be constructive on this bill. They didn't, and were sidelined as a result.

Oh, come on Idiot/Savant... it seem pretty clear from the beginning that Labour wasn't interested in having National involved in the formulation of…

Anne Tolley complained the select committee process was undemocratic as the minority opposing the bill were continually outvoted.

I/S – you well know what she was saying. Democracy isn't just about majority rule, but also the protection of the rights of the minority. In a select committee that includes being…

Anne Tolley complained the select committee process was undemocratic as the minority opposing the bill were continually outvoted. I don't think that word means what she thinks it means...

That's a long way away from the Burma direction, where the monks didn't just forget to give the home address of their monastry.

Sorry, I may have given the impression that I was getting a little carried away in my previous comment. Let me clarify.

Fining someone $10000---or even $1000---for…

If you can't tune in, I'm liveblogging it here

P.S. The debate on the second reading is starting now.

And its a complete zoo. National can't win the argument on limiting their secret cash, so they barrack like a pack of baboons.

In the New Zealand I thought I knew, most people figured this bill was trying to achieve something important: To limit the power of a few to swing elections using the sort of wealth the rest of us can't hope to compete with.

and

no more than a handful of people…

Kyle, you seem to be saying that I should be free to express myself in some ways, but not in others.

As far as I'm concerned, you can express yourself how you want. Interpretative naked dance on the life cycle of the garden slug might be interesting.

Personally I don't…

If I have a thousand dollars for an electoral campaign, and Bob Jones has a million dollars.…

Now that we've got those two ideas separate, are you trying to suggest that our right to free speech isn't about freedom?

No, I'm suggesting that your right to free speech isn't linked to how much money you have to spend on spreading your free speech around.

If I tried to do that in business I would risk being fined very heavily or even gaoled under the Commerce Act. But then they are politicians and can do what they want

Rubbish.
If you and your competition get together and agree on fixed prices, that would be illegal.…

If I tried to do…

The rest of it isn't so much free speech, as 'money speech'.

The word free has several related meanings in English. Most of them are about freedom. Another is an abbreviation of "free of charge". Please don't conflate the two ideas---they're quite distinct.

Now that we've got those two ideas…

You want to criticise the process for drawing up this bill? I'm there with bells on.

While I wasn't exactly wearing bells (or even chanting), this is a large proportion of the reason I was at the march in Wellington yesterday. I don't think I can put it better than…

rather than just screaming, pouting, and demanding the continuation of the (rich-benefitting) status quo.

While I do think Mr Farrar has a very small bit between some very large teeth I don't think you can write off National's position quite so easily.

Labour is in a rush to get this…

As do I. But I'm not holding my breath. National seems to have raised bad faith to an art form on this issue.

Yeah, like Labour's spectacluar 'bad faith' in the 90's regarding the Employment Contracts Act. AFAIK, it was a central plank of their industrial relations policy that the…

Like Steven we (the Greens – I'm a member) want to see the cap for anonymous donations brought down further – we reckon $1,000 is about right.

Serious question, Kath – if you're serious about the notion that anonymous donations are subversive of democracy, why allow them at alll?

I heard on the 5pm news on RNZ that the plan is to get all the parties' general secretaries together to talk about how the law is intended to be interpreted, so that everyone has the same understanding, and some input into that understanding. That sounds like a good idea…

My impression was that the Law…

Way I read it, if you coordinate a campaign in excess of $120,000 you are in violation of the EFB even if you yourself do not spend more than $120,000, this being collusion which cannot be seen to be happening. The EFB requires that such coordination does not occur.…

all our lovely money the incumbent politicians are sitting on

I find it amusing how people who make their living in the public sector can believe that tax money, instead of paying the wages of themselves and their colleagues, is being squirrelled by politiciians.

My parents do this. They both…

Kyle – it's new paragraph (i) of the definition of publish in clause 4 that extends the reach of the EFB to oral speech. That this is the intention is made clear on page 8 of the report under the select committee's discussion of their new definition of broadcast.

Thanks…

Do you think that clause 3 (the stated purpose of the bill) could be used to limit prosecutions to those public 'advertisements' that involve a commercial transaction, such as hiring a megaphone van, or paying for an advert?

Not really.

The courts will do their best to read down and…

Would it hurt to provide a number?

Kyle – it's new paragraph (i) of the definition of publish in clause 4 that extends the reach of the EFB to oral speech. That this is the intention is made clear on page 8 of the report under the select committee's discussion…

Actually Kyle you better go read the bill again – especially where it currently explicitly includes Oral Communication in its auspices

Would it hurt to provide a number? The bill is like 50 pages long, and it doesn't actually include the word Oral after it finishes talking about Oral Submissions.…

I can't see how a web community would be caught, unless they're spending a great deal of money in a coordinated advertising campaign. If they all do their own thing toward a common goal, they're fine. More amateur voices, less million dollar professional leaflet drops: that's the whole point.…

And…

Steven,

Or it phones up some wealthy pals and coordinates its $120,000 spend with their $120,000 spends so that their messages lined up (for example, AA helps them design their leaflets). Not allowed either.

Setting up a…

Actually Kyle you better go read the bill again – especially where it currently explicitly includes Oral Communication in its auspices

Do you think that clause 3 (the stated purpose of the bill) could be used to limit prosecutions to those public 'advertisements' that involve a commercial transaction, such as hiring a megaphone van, or paying for an advert? Surely you could not prosecute someone under a bill with the…

Graeme: what do you think of Dean Knight's proposed amendment?

It pretty much works for me, but I'd also like them to get rid of the new paragraph (i) in the definition of publish, just to be sure.

You presume incorrectly, if they say the same thing. If an AA member wanted to spend on any additional advertising of the AA campaign, they shall not be able to.

You'll have to point me to where it says that, I can't see it.

Unless they want to say the…

Meh, I feel the same way about the Govt, and I don't even expect them to fix my car.

Quite right too – that's where Trabants came from...

How is the prevention of collusion in a campaign not a block on any of the million New Zealanders who are AA members supporting the AAs message?

I'm an AA member, and much of the time I don't support their message. Like Rich, I just want them to fix my…

Moreover, as an AA member, I primarily want to get my car sorted if it breaks down.

If they start telling me how I should vote, then I'll be writing to the Commerce Commission about their monopoly of breakdown service.

But in their role as car owner advocates, they'd be…

Yours –

(though there are some provisions to stop people colluding to get around the limits).

Mine –

You presume incorrectly, if they say the same thing. If an AA member wanted to spend on any additional advertising [in support] of the AA campaign, they shall not be able…

If they start telling me how I should vote, then I'll be writing to the Commerce Commission about their monopoly of breakdown service.

I don't believe advertising revenue necessarily implies that a…

And yes, an organisation isn't going to be able to collect $$$ from its members and spend up on electoral, as opposed to issue based campaigning. That's the whole point.

Most Labour politicians live on their salaries and a few…

No, they would just be limited to spending $120k in election year. That buys an awful lot of web hosting.

Yes it does, but we will not be allowed to do any of this campaigning marlarky:

http://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/

And technically the limit is lower ($500?), by involving people…

If this results in the formation of groups like GetUp over here, then so much the better for our democracy.

Angus: this is the sort of Twilight Zone misinformation my post is aimed at. Where did you get that idea? In fact, all 220,000 members of the AA can…

In fact, changes to the bill have only been made under heavy political pressure. To then claim those bringing the political pressure are excitable seems a little circular. Are they excitable because they are successful? What if they failed?…

Get Up Australia is a left wing on-line political community opposed to the Howard government, they have 220,000 members.
...
A similar NZ community would effectively be made illegal under this bill

No, they would just be limited to spending $120k in election year. That buys an awful lot of…

Metiria represented the Green position to negotiate seven of the amendments which have made the Bill fairer.

Like Steven we (the…

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/11/paranoid_and_odious.html#comment-370203

Personally I can see huge differences between your view and his. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The AA have more than a million members in NZ, this bill classifies any amount they spend more than 12 cents as undue influence. Regulating a million New Zealanders to 12 cents expenditure is "heavy regualtion". How do you justify calling otherwise?

Actually, I presume it regulates the AA spending…

How can you justify calling this "heavy regulation" of free speech? Shouldn't you mention that no more than a handful of people want to spend more than $120,000 on electioneering?

Shouldn't you acknowledge that there are organisations consisting of more than one person?

The AA have more than a million…

I'm still hoping that shortly I'll land back in the New Zealand that has a sense of fairness and proportion, and can debate this revised bill on its merits.

Yes, Stephen, and perhaps you might like to tone things down a bit yourself. Yes, I agree some opponents of the…

I'm still hoping that shortly I'll land back in the New Zealand that has a sense of fairness and proportion

Well put – I suppose it's an unfortunate effect of politics that many smart people find it easier to whip up angry public sentiment than confront things rationally. I believe…