Yes, but if economics is a moral science, then (one assumes) the science of it must be grounded in a moral framework .. and there are numerous moral frameworks.

Mary Midgley wrote an interesting book called, "Can't we make moral judgements?" It goes to…

That would be putting the cart before the horse. – given I/we don’t even know yet whether the basic assumption (i.e., that most economic tools are grounded in consequentialist ethics) has any merit.

I prefer to think of deontological ethics as being ‘duty’ based –…

Do you have any suggestions? My feeling is that it would be extremely difficult, as deontological systems are inherently rule based. They don't even admit of…

Well the main problem is "Who knows what the curve actually looks like?" It's only real purpose is to show that it's conceptually possible that a situation could exist where lowering tax raises…

In that interview, it was observed that participation in tertiary education is much higher than it was a generation ago. What wasn't mentioned was how many people actually completed their studies, which is a far more reliable indicator…

Interesting challenge (posit) but my thinking is early stages; to further what is only a hypotheses in the making, I need to find a collaborator with…

More importantly without actually reading the methods and being knowledgeable enough in that field I was willing to trust those who were in the field rather than some mere politician who didn't…

It's not about tax anyway, it's about shut up, rich people work harder than you.

They don't, their life is a literal cruise, but it's not about how hard you work anyway, it's…

Don't count on that! I'm most interested to hear how virtue ethics can give insight into economics. My challenge for you is to show how it isn't subsumed into the consequentialist alternatives, when you actually get down to…

because we might want to make the choice between being all poor and equal or some poor and some well off and some rich.

(Quoting Marx) __ The history…

My reason was in my first post on this thread. GDP growth means a lot more goods and services being produced, which also means more being consumed. If less people…

So here we have an economist from each end of the spectrum (if you believe that the left/right distinction is a sophisticated enough model) who agree: bogus methodology. I too always point out bogus methodology even for…

Interesting that you agree with the conclusion – as I assume that is largely based on your own observation of society generally? Or is…

Can you give me an example of a "pot shot" I made? Since from the very outset I said that I actually…

I’m pretty hard on economists in general. Particularly those that get jobs as mouthpieces for banks. But I do think there is genuine quality science done in the economics field. I think your questions about this statement from the OECD are fine. But if…

Sure it is but read this;

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/dairy/10373405/Marginal-return-on-milk-solids-argument-flawed

and then this;

http://www.agprodecon.org/node/29

In particular, noting commentary from here downwards;

__ Some farm sales are more in the nature of…

OK, did that. I'm struggling to see where Marx and virtue ethics comes into it. It's an alternative way of working out how many cows to have in a herd, right? And the underlying methodology is entirely a profit maximization process, the only dispute being about how…

"Society and the economy are organized so only the wealthy do not need to go into debt, which is serfdom in a neofeudal arrangement.

The essence of neocolonialism is the “company store,” which extends credit that can never be paid off as wages are stagnant. In a neocolonial…

That seems highly likely to me. They're trying to be progressive, after all. They want to build a science. They…

My main problem with it is that it tries to boil all economic choices down to moral choices, rather than practical ones. I think that moral choice is…

Not true. Business courses teach students in the first year all about ethics.

They are taught that ethics has no place in business and should be avoided at all costs.

Alas, Guyon failed to pick Bill English up on his use of the…

This to me is a bit of the problem with our general view of economics – it is not a 'science'…

Why is that a horrid neck of the woods, if it is…

No, I'm not confusing them. I'm saying one is a pale shadow of the other, and it could do better. It is worth discussing how it could do so,…

If it’s any consolation we’re not even close. Were the OECD the world, and if in that period, the economic growth hadn’t skedaddled off to developing countries, where the greatest inequality incidentally is, then be dismayed. Chile,…

oh, sorry, that was the Nazis.....

That's why it should be more properly termed 'lame-stream media' LSM.

It's blindingly obvious that all our media (& politicians) are captive to corporates.…

Except in disability policy. A parade of pilot programmes.

I haven't heard much about the IRD's $1.5 billion computer system upgrade,…

I think I understand how we ended up with this discussion. You're confusing political and economic ideology with actual science :P

Well…changing the goal posts (hypotheses under test in an experiment) leads to some sticky ethical as well as scientific issues (incorrect p values) in my neck…

I didn't just get a major in stats so that I couldn't question causation claims :-). Thanks for your reply and Bart and Matthew too, I have to split for the rest of the evening so hopefully the thread…

That's not really very specific. I wouldn't call that a hypothesis, just a sales pitch. But what I'm getting at is that it's never suggested that they will…

Yes, that's pretty much what I was suggesting to Rob before. It's not like it's a crime to look at your observations and then predict a model that looks like the pattern you see…

You are describing a single case crossover design, and Matthew Poole's dismissal of your suggestion leads me to think he might be a Rocket Scientist rather than a Statistician. ;-)

I'll try and keep this to a level which is appropriate here in a place of intelligent people who…

Sure. You could do that, if you were independently…

Fuck yeah! it costs way way too much money, time and emotional energy to just wing it. We spend literally hours with whiteboards drawing models. Hours and hours. We spend ages with journal papers figuring…

Is it really an experiment if no hypothesis is made beforehand, as Rob Stowell asks?

Ok I accept that.

So can you accept the in effect there have already been multiple experiments? Each time a government makes changes to policy that affect both inequality…

Of course that's an impossibly high expectation. But it can be a lot better than having no idea at all well before then.

I'm not asking about the theory of doing experiments, I'm asking about the actual practice. It's quite possible to not make a prediction about what will be observed, but to just design an experiment that pits some variable against another, make…

How could you design an experiment without doing this?

Which is great for a relatively simple system such as a rock…

I’m really curious whether, in practice, you make your hypotheses in advance of your experiments.

ETA: Actually, to be a bit more general, I'm very interested in every bit of light you can shed about how hypotheses come…

Believe me, it's not denial. My aim is more to question how it is that we can't adopt an attitude in which methodical experimentation is acceptable. That's not the same as just collecting data.…

Don’t worry, I’m sure the Taxpayer’s Union will come out to discuss this report soon enough.

And here it is (scroll down for the full media release). It basically seems to…

But Ben you seem to be suggesting that such…

It's not just ignorance. It's also selfishness. The public voted for tax cuts and got them. The direct consequence of those cuts was in increase in the wealth of the rich and the simultaneous cutting of social welfare systems that help to lift the…

I don't think you even need to be a scientist to see that as completely and utterly false. I could drop a…

To something of an extent it can be observed in the US, where different states run different policy settings inside the same national-level policy framework and economy, but even then it is easier to disprove a relationship than to prove…

I don't know if that's true. You can…

To be fair governments are constantly experimenting. The problem is multiple variables are almost always changing simultaneously. Hence the problem determining cause or effect.

You end up with "yes you improved the economy, but not because you reduced inequality…

Yes, and both from organizations that could hardly be accused of having been raving hotbeds of radical leftwing economists.

you go with the repeated, peer-reviewed stuff

That's…

Our wee acre of supposed pastoral bliss is bordered on three sides by a 999 acre/1000 cow dairy farm.

The owner we purchased our acre from....a rockstar of the dairy industry in his time...had to sell, as the wolves came baying for their due. He was a bully...so few…

Oh, ye of little faith!

Arguably the New Zealand economy is indeed like a rock star — think Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, or Jim Morrison. Or, for a more contemporary rocker, Amy Winehouse.

for some 'growth' is maturation,
for others it's a tumour.

Time to put some the few eggs left in another basket methinks...

Sure, which is what is done, and the correlation is well established. But how do you make a sound inference about the direction of causation? Correlation is pretty good indication of some kind of causation…

What does that word really mean?????

...is inequality that simply can't be ignored.

Young people, well educated, working HARD.

Told to "grow up and move on.."

By whom?

So, my hard working adult child and their partner, having desperately been trying to save for a deposit on a home (not in Auckland), have just about…

You'll love the English interview.

Yeah, I think you underestimate our ability to ignore large elephants in the room.

You can't do a controlled expt, nobody will let you.

But you can observe societies where inequality has changed and observe changes in economic growth. Since multiple societies have shown the same correlation it becomes less likely that there is another factor driving…

Our government has polled the people of New Zealand and found that they want us to continue to make the rich richer and the poor poorer – far be it for us (rich bastards) to argue with the will of the people.

Quite simply…

perhaps that should be "Key" argument, Max?.

".... backing redistribution, and pointing out New Zealand as the country worst affected"

The measured cost of our 'rockstar' economy?

"... is a landmark one, and may represent the moment when inequality really…