Public Address | Cafe | Polity: Government votes not to improve MMP

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 13:50:44 +1200

How about a box on each ballot where you could write in your ideas for the governance of New Zealand in 400 words or less?

Brent Jackson

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 12:37:21 +1200

I would like the threshold reduced to 2 (or perhaps 3) MPs (ie 1.5% to 2%), so that small parties can get going. At 5% (or even 4%) only extremely rich movements are going to be able to get going for long enough to build up this sort of support.…

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 28 Jun 2015 13:07:24 +1200

the great unwashed
Now there's a group of people that needs 'soapbox' support...
just as the lumpenproletariat always needs stirrers!

izogi

Sat, 27 Jun 2015 22:49:49 +1200

the great unwashed seems to have no problem at all ranking their preferences

The ability of often being able to tick a box to apply the recommended rankings of one’s most preferred candidate, without necessarily even considering or knowing what those rankings are and who else you might be electing,…

andin

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 16:23:08 +1200

the great unwashed
Yep there's just some people not keeping up...
might just push the quality of representatives down.
Oh lower ok.. IMHO there is a disconnect between representatives and well...
Arent these representatives supposed to ... lead.
What if the direction they are headed isnt looking... well thought out.

Moz

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:43:13 +1200

Parliaments with five times as many members work fine (and there is a good argument that the less "efficent" parliament is, the better the laws that come out).

I fear that in NZ that might just push the quality of representatives down. We would probably still have the same number…

tony j ricketts

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 14:30:38 +1200

Parliaments with five times as many members work fine (and there is a good argument that the less "efficent" parliament is, the better the laws that come out).

One reason for this may be that with a larger parliament there are more government-party backbenchers, some of whom will be competent,…

Moz

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 11:54:24 +1200

I still favour a single vote MMP system, where the party vote goes to the list of ones chosen electorate candidate

I think that would make things harder for new parties and very small parties. In the worst case a party polling a consistent 1% across the country would need…

Moz

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 11:50:32 +1200

Aussie PV system ... the great unwashed seems to have no problem at all ranking their preferences.

Really? Have you ever seen an Australian election? The defining feature of those is the donkey vote (write 1 in the first box you see, exit the booth). If you look more deeply…

TracyMac

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 11:30:41 +1200

While I think the Aussie PV system is a bit crap, the great unwashed seems to have no problem at all ranking their preferences. So the "simplicity" argument in favour of MMP doesn't hold up for me.

STV solves all the MMP problems all these manoeuvrings are supposed to fix,…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 11:20:39 +1200

I'd also add that such a system would reduce the perceived need for a threshold, because in order to successfully contest an election, a party would need to field a fairly complete set of electorate candidates, which would (absent the Kim Dotcom option of paying candidates a six figure stipend)…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 10:20:31 +1200

I don't think people would be interested in the level of complication of a multiple voting system in electorates.

With a fair voting system for list MPs, it isn't necessary. Reducing the threshold and removing coat-tailing reduces the ability to game the system.

I still favour a single vote MMP…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 26 Jun 2015 10:07:44 +1200

One change that needs to go ahead is to convert the existing FPP electorate system to PV or STV. That would eliminate vote cannibalising, especially the infamous Eden-Albert debacle in 2001.

Sacha

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 21:36:28 +1200

Looking at those graphs, why would you set the threshold at 4% rather than 3%?

Katharine Moody

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 20:47:07 +1200

Wonder how National would have voted on this had Hone won his electorate last time around?

Simon Lyall

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 20:12:01 +1200

I'd like to see a preference system. If your party doesn't make the threshold then it gets transfered to another choice. Would let people vote for smaller parties without fear their vote will be waste if they score below the threshold. You could even keep the threshold at 5%

Another…

Deborah

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:30:35 +1200

“Representation” is the primary function of the House of Representatives in my opinion.

There's another wrinkle to throw into this, and that's to do with the physical size of electorates. People living in Taumarunui have as much representation per capita as do people living in Auckland Central, but people living…

Steve Curtis

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:20:02 +1200

Given that the Electoral Commissions proposals would reduce the overall proportionality of Parliament, I’m not exactly unhappy about this.

Say again
. Reducing the threshold INCREASES proportionality as those who are between 4-5% are now included. Of course having no threshold is even more proportional but of the Weimar kind…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:17:07 +1200

Parliament isn't (mostly) a committee. Parliaments with five times as many members work fine (and there is a good argument that the less "efficent" parliament is, the better the laws that come out).

Also, if you have more MPs, you'll have more competent ones. If a party doesn't want to…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 14:42:35 +1200

I don't see how a threshold change would necessarily reduce the proportionality of parliament.

It would depend (assuming no change to votes) on:
– number of votes for parties with no electorate MPs and 4-5% of votes
– # of votes for parties with no electorate MPs and 1MP quota…

James Caygill

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 14:09:54 +1200

I don't pay enough attention to know at a detailed level – but Select Committee oversight seems to be functioning as well as it ever does (certainly the big change to Standing Orders at the intro of MMP was a massive improvement).

I'd still like a few tweaks to Standing…

linger

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:59:26 +1200

Would you say Parliament is doing an effective job of overseeing anything at present?

James Caygill

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:52:28 +1200

"Representation" is the primary function of the House of Representatives in my opinion.

Parliament doesn't run the country, it legislates and oversees. The Executive runs the country.

Besides in my experience idiot is in the eye of the beholder – we generally disrespect politicians because we're thinking of the side…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:49:11 +1200

Given that the Electoral Commissions proposals would reduce the overall proportionality of Parliament, I'm not exactly unhappy about this.
Me too. I'd like the threshold lowered (or done away with at .8%) because it makes parliament more proportional. Losing the lifeboat/coat-tail provision makes parliament less proportional, so tying the two…

linger

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:45:39 +1200

There’s a trade-off involved, given that we have (i) a small population and (ii) a frighteningly small pool of capable individuals interested in running for public office for the good of the country rather than for their own benefit.

Increasing the size of our Parliament would probably allow increased representativeness,…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:33:58 +1200

of course, this isn’t the reason Labour supports abolishing the one-seat rule

Who gives a rats arse WHY they want to do the right thing.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:33:22 +1200

lowering the threshold is that it could lead to instability

Which begs the question of whether stability is a good thing. Dictatorship for life is very stable too.

Essentially if you can't get agreement in parliament to get laws through then you probably should have another election rather than having…

James Caygill

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:17:40 +1200

Easy answer to the proportionality issue: include a change to s191 of the Electoral Act to ensure that the size of Parliament changes to maintain proportionality.

Limiting parliament's size to 120 is a stupid idea – a populist one sure, but stupid. It gets more stupid the more the population…

linger

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 12:38:15 +1200

Germany can have a multi-electorate lifeboat rule because they have more electorates and more MPs. New Zealand does not have that luxury. (And, as Steve points out above, there's a federal overlay to Germany's system that is missing in NZ.)

And as for so-called “coat-tailing”: if the bigger parties can…

Steve Curtis

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 12:33:50 +1200

Germany isnt strictly speaking a similar system to ours as they operate a 'regional MMP' version. Lists and electorates are bundled by the federal states. This normally produces a overhang for the CSU who only contest seats in Bavaria, winning all of them, while their partners the CDU stay well…

Idiot Savant

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 12:29:07 +1200

Given that the Electoral Commissions proposals would reduce the overall proportionality of Parliament, I'm not exactly unhappy about this. And if Labour had seperated their desire to kneecap national's coalition partners from the straight democratic argument in favour of a lower threshold, their bill might have succeeded.

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 12:22:17 +1200

Except, of course, this isn't the reason Labour supports abolishing the one-seat rule, given that they announced they'd legislate to do that before the review was conducted, and indeed, before the referendum was held (as noted here http://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/election-fact-check-8-electoral-law-consensus/).

Public Address

Thu, 25 Jun 2015 12:22:17 +1200

Discussion from blog post.