Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: Doing the right thing on retirement

Richard Aston

Thu, 10 Nov 2011 08:54:47 +1300

Ian thanks for the Plato cave reference – Allegory of the Cave – isn't it amazing how we interpret – Your channeled Plato sees the shadows on the cave wall as illusory – a dim reflection of reality but not reality. Plato's reality seems to be an objective external one.…

Sacha

Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:37:56 +1300

The ultimate answer is increasing the value each business and worker produces. This country's record on productivity (and sharing it fairly) is not good.

Kyle Matthews

Tue, 08 Nov 2011 12:27:15 +1300

Yes I am aware of those projections – but they partially are based on assumptions that retired people will make no contribution to the economy ie they will be a burden.

I believe those that keep on working into national super age group are included in that 2:1 ratio.

But…

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 07 Nov 2011 17:15:24 +1300

I put this on the wrong thread earlier ooops silly me but looks like Allen Peachey doesn’t make it to retirement.

Kyle Matthews

Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:47:46 +1300

(I'm catching up on this thread, so haven't read it all the way through, hopefully my points still make sense).

Maori and Mana dislike it because of Maori’s poor mortality rates. They believe a raise in the age would be unfair to Maori, and they have a valid point.

I…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 05 Nov 2011 14:14:51 +1300

putty...
Nice line Ian .
Thanks, but I confess I was channelling Plato

The teardrop explodes...
You'll probably find the lightbulb was in Joyce's
head many days earlier.
How long till Key tries to take the credit for Coronation Street
returning to prime time... I reckon 48 hrs max...

**well…

Sacha

Sat, 05 Nov 2011 13:06:23 +1300

You could see the lightbulb go off in Key’s head when he said that

You'll probably find the lightbulb was in Joyce's head many days earlier. Hence the annoyance from Gordon Campbell and others about the lack of any effective response.

Richard Aston

Sat, 05 Nov 2011 12:57:23 +1300

and fuel the shadows on the cave wall...
Nice line Ian .
Beautiful image of history in all its ragged glory feeding our imaginations for more to come.

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 23:15:04 +1300

The Scion of Elders…
Champagne lifestyles on XXXX (ForEx) budgets
the young Key in his natural environment
Note to National Radio even then he was inferred to be an’addict’!
…and I love the Hockneyesque goggles.

I think that John Key’s “Show me the money” quote just indicates how far out…

Islander

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 22:55:38 +1300

In black fatty smoke
the drawings grow-
add red ochre? O yes!
The yellow too?
And dogshit white
(there is nothing new
about cooking piments
or other pig stuff
-bristles/shaved bone
a tusk as scriber
a dog tooth sharpering a line- and

35000 years on
we see our betters
and…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 22:42:38 +1300

Archimedes says 'we're screwed'...
You mean like history as a valuable science :).
Hell yes, it is reducible to pure truths
and burns with a steady clear light
when exposed to air...

and even when it is pure bullshit
it can be gathered in pats to burn and
fuel the…

Hilary Stace

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 20:41:28 +1300

Apparently there were 800 residents at its height in the early 1970s, so from the 50s-70s was the big growth era. Since then run down as de-inst started, but took another 30 years. I think, like any large organisation, the culture varied with the leadership, and each new new director…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 17:45:33 +1300

Thanks Hilary, sorry I was unduly harsh, especially as I've enjoyed your kindness and generosity here in the past.

The Levin centre, by whatever name, was being slowly expanded when I left all those decades ago. I'd assumed it was simply an upgrade and replacement of the run-down and recycled…

merc

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:05:50 +1300

...now he's a monkey's shonky uncle who uses a Greek calculator, or something, http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/policies/5908629/Labour-releases-spending-plans
Dear John, you're not funny anymore.

Hilary Stace

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 15:02:49 +1300

Joe, I'm sorry I didn't mean to be patronising. This is still raw history for many and that is one reason why the Donald Beasley study exploring the stories of various players (staff, families, residents) is so fascinating and important. But what I am saying is that the policy makers…

Stewart

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 14:28:32 +1300

I think that John Key's "Show me the money" quote just indicates how far out of touch with 'ordinary' NZers he is. As if those sort of beliefs and (lack of) principles are relevant – he might as well have jabbered on about "Greed is good".

merc

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 14:03:42 +1300

I can't believe Key got away with a Jerry McGuire quote, really is he going to announce his Qan? Jump up on a couch. And can any reasonable person ask why when the master demanded the pupil had to provide an essay, by morning?
Sir-fricken-real.

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:58:05 +1300

you had me

merc

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:56:18 +1300

...you had me at tax cut.

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:55:56 +1300

history as valuable. science is too

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:55:07 +1300

emotive phrases and anecdotes

Look over there while I pick your pocket..

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:53:43 +1300

Not quite sure if I follow you with ‘political’

Disabled people working together for change. Mainly who I've been interacting with.

Bart Janssen

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:45:43 +1300

Those stories are still really important to understanding

You mean like history as a valuable science :).

Bart Janssen

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:43:50 +1300

'breeding for a business' which are eugenic dog-whistles

Any time someone raises this I want them to show actual data.

Not anecdotes, not my sister's workmate has 3 cousins who ...

But actual data, real numbers of mothers who have say more than 3 children and are on the DPB…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:39:19 +1300

could lower life expectancy for some

That would be impossible to show. No way the experiment will be done and no way to control for differences in health care as a result of changing budgets.

An equally unprovable and untestable statement would be
raising the age of retirement will increase…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:35:32 +1300

Also a sweet victory to trounce a ‘proper’ hockey team.

Depends what you mean by “proper” I suppose.

Back when my knees didn't hurt I played basketball a lot. The team we most feared was the association for the deaf team. They were brutal and they had skillz. I'm sure…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:11:24 +1300

Sacha:
The political fragmentation after de-institutionalisation is something I haven’t seen discussed much.
Not quite sure if I follow you with ‘political’, but a sad experience for me was visiting some of the former Levin inmates in the 80s, after the place had been run down and they’d been moved…

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 13:02:25 +1300

I'm sure Hilary has linked to these in a previous discussion, but I'd recommend the Donald Beasley Institute's set of reports about the impact of the deinstitutionalisation of Kimberley on residents, families and staff.

Kate Hannah

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:44:00 +1300

and this is one of the issues with history – assigning our current cultural norms and assessing society in the past against them. It is a difficult space to negotiate – and, like Sacha has so articulately stated, humanity can prevail even within an inhumane system. Nomenclature matters – BUT…

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:38:26 +1300

Colleagues who were in institutions have told me that they allowed the forming of common cause amongst a large group. The political fragmentation after de-institutionalisation is something I haven't seen discussed much.

Damn right it's the prevailing social arrangments and stereotyped beliefs about disability that are the culprit. Successive governments…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:25:53 +1300

The things that make inhumane systems survivable often come down to good humans doing what they can.
The inhumane system was the wider society that ostracised the disabled. In that context, for around two-and-a-half decades Levin wasn’t some kind of gulag.

I think it's also fair to claim that genuine…

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:16:45 +1300

My parents were minor functionaries in a system that they didn't choose to join.

The things that make inhumane systems survivable often come down to good humans doing what they can.

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:14:59 +1300

Hilary, you're not only being patronising and condescending, you're failing to accord me the courtesy of assuming that I'm posting here in good faith.

Steady on. I believe you're both being genuine.

Kate Hannah

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:14:30 +1300

done – thanks Hilary

Kate Hannah

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:12:26 +1300

yes! I have that somewhere in my files as a very bizarre addition to the works I've found ... that whole genre of late victorian empire poetry (God Defend New Zealand a fine example) is truly odd. But packed with imagery and connotation to be teased out .....

Joe Wylie

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 12:06:50 +1300

I'm really glad that there were nice people like your family in those places.
Hilary, you're not only being patronising and condescending, you're failing to accord me the courtesy of assuming that I'm posting here in good faith.

I am NOT motivated by a need to justify my family's involvement.…

Hilary Stace

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 11:03:52 +1300

Kate – if you email me at I can give you that listserv and other refs

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 11:03:17 +1300

This William Gibson quote posted by Ian on another thread fits perfectly (my emphasis added):

It’s harder to imagine the past that went away than it is to imagine the future. What we were prior to our latest batch of technology is, in a way, unknowable. It would be harder…

Hilary Stace

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:56:55 +1300

Joe, The debate over terminology and support options was as heated then as now with many parents fighting politicians and others. The World Health Organisation was way ahead of our Holland Government which used which used terms 'mental deficiency colonies', 'feeble minded' etc in its 1953 clinician-led Aitken report, in…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:51:55 +1300

I'm always looking for more texts that attempt a fictional account of all aspects of the Holocaust & Armenian genocide.
You have probably seen this 1896 poem
reproduced here in case it falls within your ambit :

FOR ARMENIA.
TO THE WOMEN OF NEW ZEALAND.
["Can we not create a…

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:49:31 +1300

While I appreciate that the book is now somehow officially closed, I believe that you’d have found more than a few fellow spirits in those genuinely reformist years before the empire building mentality set in. A pity that their stories will never be told.

Those stories are still really important…

Sacha

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 10:46:41 +1300

Gerard Smythe's excellent doco on the closure of Templeton played on TV1 on I think Christmas Eve 2004

Certainly made an impression on me. He said at the time he was working on the broader one as a follow-up. No surprise to hear that the network gatekeepers would prefer a…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:33:05 +1300

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_P6wA4fPE0
(filmed by Ronnie van Hout, with Bob Scott looking just
like one of his illustrations! And showcasing an alley that
no longer exists in the same state...)

Joe Wylie

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 09:01:38 +1300

Joe – ‘mental deficiency colonies’ was official government language of the 1950s for psychopaedic institutions so I’m pleased to hear those on the ground didn’t use that term.
Hilary, while we find the term objectionable today, please consider that it would have been common currency back then among people who…

Hilary Stace

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 08:24:15 +1300

Kate – the black triangle, which was the Nazi disability symbol has been adopted by several disability groups in the UK, who have got very active in response to the current government's attacks on services and support for disabled people. Many have a presence on Facebook.

Joe – 'mental deficiency…

andin

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 08:22:08 +1300

Hah! Getting any "older client" to attend on of Paula Bennett's WINZ "How to get a Job Seminars" (which are nothing more that 70's recycled self-help jargon repackaged) would probably do exactly the same thing.
How do I know?
You think they aren't doing it already, in anticipation!
Some people…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 07:00:39 +1300

Depends what you mean by “proper” I suppose.
Heh.
I played hockey for a bit to spite my dad, who was a rugby tragic. And because school sport was, you know, compulsory, I played with the shufflers who couldn’t be bothered coming in on Saturdays to be properly coached.

Anyway,…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 00:05:55 +1300

And there's unfortunately a far more recent example: Alberto Fujimori's Peru.

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:52:16 +1300

Ta for the update

linger

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:31:31 +1300

@Joe:Also a sweet victory to trounce a ‘proper’ hockey team.
Depends what you mean by “proper” I suppose.
When I was much younger, I was in the school’s lowest ranked soccer team.
(Those who know me will start laughing at this point. I don’t really do physical.)
In a school…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 23:28:04 +1300

I was looking forward to Gerard Smyth’s promised doco about NZ’s own eugenic history after his film about Templeton. Haven’t heard anything for the past half-decade though. (Yes, that Gerard)
After a heap of work, I don't think he could find a broadcaster. Not a ratings winner, they said. Ratings:…

Joe Wylie

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:52:16 +1300

Joe, the language was much worse than that – 'mental defective', 'unfit' (nouns not adjectives) used generally in NZ and elsewhere . . .
I believe that the term 'oxygen thief' had its origins back then. Never heard anything that bad first-hand. The ugliest stuff I recall was from the…

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:29:57 +1300

Ooh yay have a contact at Leeds whom I will email forthwith.

And yes. The language of othering mastered by the Nazis has to be read to be believed.

Hilary Stace

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 22:24:21 +1300

When I was researching the history of New Zealand eugenics in the 1990s (when that Swedish history first came to light which was genuinely shocking – and also Frieda from Abba was revealed as a child of a eugenic pairing of a Swedish mother and a German father) I came…

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:34:51 +1300

Was hoping you might chime in, Hilary. Would love some ideas of places to look – I've seen images from various exhibitions, haven't looked in the Turnbull for that particular strand of the story... PAS – a wonderful place.

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:17:34 +1300

the connection with people I knew was horrifying

I can imagine

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:17:18 +1300

I have come across several such sources while doing my history of disability policy research

Excellent

Joe Wylie

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:14:22 +1300

You might be understating the difference your particular upbringing made.
Probably because I'd read somewhere – and from a few certain reference points I can't have been older than 13 – that the nazis targeted the 'mentally disabled' or 'intellectually handicapped'. As you've rightly suggested these were common phrases in…

Hilary Stace

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:07:07 +1300

Kate – I just read this thread again and see now what you are doing. I have come across several such sources while doing my history of disability policy research. I will try and recall what they were.

Hilary Stace

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:02:06 +1300

There have been several museum exhibits and art installations related to both the specific Nazi programme re disabled people (led by clinicians – and reaction to that is where our modern research ethics requirements have come from) and eugenic programmes in various countries particularly the US which had extensive sterilisation…

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 21:01:34 +1300

common knowledge

You might be understating the difference your particular upbringing made.

it wasn't just the Nazis

I was looking forward to Gerard Smyth's promised doco about NZ's own eugenic history after his film about Templeton. Haven't heard anything for the past half-decade though. (Yes, that Gerard)

Islander

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:49:13 +1300

Joe, that is one of the best dreams I've ever read.
Thankyou, n/nKeri whose dreams are mainly despair situations these days=

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:12:32 +1300

The research I am interested in doesn’t usually cost much and my faculty generously offers contestable funding every year. So, I am currently seeking around $5000 for 2012 to add South Island cinemas to my www.cinemasofnz.info site. In the arts/social sciences, there is really only the highly competitive Marsden fund…

Joe Wylie

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 20:09:04 +1300

. . . most people don't even realise the Nazis systematically exterminated disabled people as well.
Those stories seemed to be common knowledge in my youth. I remember having a bad childhood dream about Hitler turning up at the head of an armoured column at the Levin 'mental farm' where…

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:58:47 +1300

You've given me a new path to wander down though. I've read a lot of nonfiction re the treatment of the disabled during the third reich. But need to seek out the art...

linger

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:58:41 +1300

I love what I do and have enormous opportunities (teaching, writing, thinking) and I suspect that retirement would be much duller.
Only if you let it be. Got any research projects that interest you but which don’t have a snowball’s chance of attracting funding?

Or are you able to pursue…

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:56:47 +1300

Brill. Will do tomorrow from full keyboard & with my books around me.

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:49:30 +1300

Like I say, seen nothing further at this stage. Larger long-standing problems with any media representations of disability, let alone the history.

bmk

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:44:45 +1300

That would be great, thanks. My email icon should work.

bmk

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:44:10 +1300

I have that book and have read it. That is how I first learnt about the Armenian genocide. I was wondering if there is a book more specifically focussed on the Armenian genocide. Yeah the book is gruelling but he manages to somehow maintain a real humanity throughout it.

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:43:38 +1300

It must be hard when life is such a struggle. My take on retirement is different from those who have less choice and where retirement enables them to have a life that scratching a living has made difficult. It is the opposite for me:I love what I do and have…

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:43:36 +1300

Oh yes! Can I email you a starter list?

merc

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:42:12 +1300

Fisk, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_for_Civilisation:_The_Conquest_of_the_Middle_East
Gruelling.

bmk

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:39:36 +1300

I find the Armenian genocide fascinating in that outside of academic circles so few people know about it. I have talked with so many people who had no idea that it happened. And as far as I know Turkey still refuses to accept its actions let alone apologise for them.…

Joe Wylie

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:37:57 +1300

. . . when things are taken from you incrementally, you hardly notice . . .
I hadn't until recently, and I confess that while I knew things were tight I had no idea that the pattern had become so widespread. So many people in what should be the lead-up…

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:33:21 +1300

Yes. Much of what I'm interested in is conscious acts of bearing witness via Art (literature, performance, etc) – in order to not allow the act of forgetting. So Aktion T4 suggestions gratefully received.

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 19:15:13 +1300

Haven't looked for much yet, but most people don't even realise the Nazis systematically exterminated disabled people as well.

Was spooky just reading Wikipedia and seeing the innocuous razed plot where the headquarters once stood.

Jackie Clark

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:55:42 +1300

I hadn't thought much about this retirement thing until today. I am aware that many of our parents have two jobs, and I was talking to one of our Dads today – a lovely young man of 26 – who indeed has 2 jobs. Now, bear in mind, that many…

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:54:21 +1300

I'm always looking for more texts that attempt a fictional account of all aspects of the Holocaust & Armenian genocide. My trajectory at present focuses on video art or YouTube streams .... Any tips re Aktion T4 ones ? I "read" them textually rather than visually...

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:50:09 +1300

And it seems you probably work at the department that trained me, given you're Hamilton-based.

Jackie Clark

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 18:45:38 +1300

Come now. You were beyond fantastic with Ruby. Yes, she's a dog. But dogs are people too!

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 17:24:57 +1300

No place like ohm...
No no it’s pointless science … especially topology
Science communication fail :(
not so, you just opened a whole new Torus Industry...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LZ3iJ7-EEI

DexterX

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:53:19 +1300

No need – You were wishing you hadn't been born – you seem quite apt at bringing yourself down.

Islander

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:52:56 +1300

Nice wordplay though!

Bart Janssen

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:47:20 +1300

Ahah! So Marsden is science that has a Point

No no it's pointless science ... especially topology

Science communication fail :(

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:46:50 +1300

I never had grandparents as my mother was an orphan by age nine (her father dying in WW1 and her mother dying of poverty in Whitechapel). My father was her third husband, with parents long dead. So, I sometimes wonder if I have missed something.
Technically, I am now in…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:44:50 +1300

"The planned advanced technology institute will operate in the border between business and science, providing a welcome focus on the development side of research and development," he said. "Exploiting untapped opportunities in the high tech manufacturing and services areas including ICT will be a major step forward for New Zealand's…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:44:04 +1300

Big Think...
What Marsdenable science has is quality first and foremost.
Ahah! So Marsden is science that has a Point,
puts the good oil into the system,
& keeps the big cities running...
:- )

(of course we won't mention Marsdens A & B )

merc

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:39:36 +1300

Promises, http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10763637

Bart Janssen

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 16:23:56 +1300

Marsdenable, I’d call it

Exactly. Blue skies isn't quite right because it carries an implication that there is no conceivable value or product. What Marsdenable science has is quality first and foremost. Work that gets a Marsden is high quality, well thought out, likely to produce work that gets published…

andin

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:38:23 +1300

I would say that you need to get on with “it” – what ever it is you do – in a more positive light.

You know where you can stick that positive light.
You do condescension quite well

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:30:47 +1300

researcher of post-Holocaust representations of genocide in a variety of "texts"

ooh, anything related to Aktion T4?

John Armstrong

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:24:31 +1300

It appears that our intersubjective spaces are in broad alignment;)

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:18:41 +1300

in an economy of scarcity, such as we have now with funding for research, there is indeed the danger of more 'science' funding taking monies away from the social sciences and humanities – I guess what I assumed (because it is my own subjective position, I hasten to add) was…

Islander

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:17:04 +1300

I understand there is a waiting list!

Richard Aston

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:11:14 +1300

+ 1 Islander !
Can I have your mum as my naaan ?

Richard Aston

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:08:24 +1300

Importance of Grandparents in raising children.

As a new grandfather myself I don't know how to describe the magic of the relationship – its nothing like parenting but it is, it has a quality of otherness to it and I can feel my grandaughter lapping it up as if it…

Islander

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:07:21 +1300

+ a zillion Richard!

Islander

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 15:03:00 +1300

Yes, it seems that childcare is something quite a lot of grandparents actually enjoy.

My 84 years-old mother, who brought up 6 children majorly by herself (my father died when she was 31, I was 11,and all my siblings were junior to me), was a fount of wisdom & succour* when…

John Armstrong

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:58:29 +1300

I thought the term 'blue skies' referred to scientific research for its own sake

Edit: Or, of course any other kind of research..

Richard Aston

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:56:16 +1300

Wonderful start Ben and Kate –
Here's one – deep appreciation of our mortality .

The closer you get to your own death and that of your friends the deeper appreciation you have of our mortality. In this place an elder's gift is " live each day fully like it…

John Armstrong

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:54:51 +1300

I'm not sure; I thought the term 'blue skies' referred to scientific research for its own sake, as opposed to scientific activity aimed towards particular – often economic or commercial – ends. Given the context of the discussion, I assumed that 'science' referred to research more at the commercial end…

BenWilson

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:42:10 +1300

Yes, it seems that childcare is something quite a lot of grandparents actually enjoy. I don't want to speak for all old people on that, of course. But it's the same old unacknowledged work that is actually of utmost priority and value.

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:26:08 +1300

Was that an edit?

Written in invisble ink the first time :)

BenWilson

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:22:00 +1300

The limitations can be easily seen when older people advise younger ones about things like how easy it is to get a job if you want one.

Of course. But if you're even talking to them, there's a chance to put your perspective. And it is good to ask them…

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:17:33 +1300

The limitations can be easily seen when older people advise younger ones about things like how easy it is to get a job if you want one.

Differing contexts add richness to inter-generational conversations, so long as they are acknowledged to exist.

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:14:40 +1300

there's patience or at least the gift of time – my 65 year old father-in-law was made redundant about 2 years ago, and in the period of his redundancy, he was a fantastic resource for school trips, attending school events etc. The teachers loved having him as he had the…

BenWilson

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:13:11 +1300

in a particular time and context, yes

As all memories are. I don't have any of those about being elderly, though.

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:11:04 +1300

they can remember what it was like to be middle aged

in a particular time and context, yes

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:10:24 +1300

increased funding of all blue skies research

Amen

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 14:08:59 +1300

it takes a village to raise a child
and to help ease an old person out...
we need to commune with dignity.

BenWilson

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:59:28 +1300

Your call for a " inter generational consensus" is a good one – one place to start – you have already Ben – is finding real respect and aroha – elder to younger, younger to elder.

I don't exactly know where to start. I guess the first one would be…

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:49:48 +1300

absolutely Steve – limited term projects and returns for NZ Inc. give short shrift to the long tail of much research. Though I was delighted that Marsden gave Brian Boyd funding for his Popper bio this year – that's been years in the making. Whenever I work on Marsden applications…

DexterX

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:43:42 +1300

Goff isn't supported, should he do much better than he is doinjg now I am sure Labour will deliberately implode.

Kate Hannah

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:41:46 +1300

I – without wanting to put words in Bart's mouth – think he may be using 'science' as a synonym for 'blue skies research', as many of my colleagues do. I'm a historian, or at least was trained as one, and have an interdisciplinary literature/history masters, so am equally committed…

DexterX

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:38:49 +1300

It is the best we can hope for.

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:58:22 +1300

will take care of themselves

a genuine do-nothing party :)

DexterX

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 12:06:10 +1300

One of the structural problems in the economy is the “investment income imbalance” I mentioned this earlier in this thread and investment in Kiwisaver which sends money offshore adds to this in the short to medium term.

There was an excellent article in one fo the rags in 2010 which…

Sacha

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:18:50 +1300

I don't think how things have turned out was a conscious and devious plan of an entire generation.

Same.

The property boom would not have spiked as much as it did if younger generations weren't buying the houses on crazy loans from banks. We weren't forced to buy property like…

Richard Aston

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:02:22 +1300

As a "boomer" myself I struggle to speak for my generation – it wasn't – isn't – that unified. My friends and I were out protesting on the streets against the rise of individualism and materialism, against the rise of the economics-is-all model. Against my parents generation and my own.…

BenWilson

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:52:53 +1300

We need the mass figures, but we also need individuals' experiences.

Quite. Islander's experiences aren't that unusual. The impoverished elderly exist, and they're part of the reason I don't like the term "intergenerational theft" and similar nasty connotations. I can't hate on my elders, however much they're the fiscally lucky…

Richard Aston

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:50:29 +1300

Man I'm loving this debate !
Poetry from Ian , some fantastic metaphors from Islander. Excellent volley exchange with Islander and Sacha and I have learn't so much. Great thinking bubbling up all over the place and so much to ponder on.
Compared to the crap debates on Telly we…

Joe Wylie

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 09:27:17 +1300

What people do about it is up to them, people need to cut their ownlunch and not rely on the governement or put blind faith in any political party.
So, shut up you whining c_nts and eat your nice baby boomer.

DexterX

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 07:52:11 +1300

Shifting the retirment age out to 67 years is not something that I support.

As I said before:

What we are going through is a settling period as we move to a lower level of economic activity and lower standard of living.

I shoudl add to this "for most of…

DexterX

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 07:45:19 +1300

Now I find myself sometimes wishing I hadnt been born when I look at how my contemporaries have screwed up. Raise the age for all I care my job and future prospects are dim enough already. Respect goes where the money is as if that is some indicator that of…

mattgeeknz

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 06:18:08 +1300

Government already had an asset base as well as revenue flows. Spending (including superannuation) is leveraged on that asset base as well. All working generations helped build those assets – which is a form of collective ‘saving’.

I'm not expecting many of those savings to be left in twenty years.…

linger

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 01:41:42 +1300

To connect Sacha’s, Islander’s, and my own points, at some risk of stating the obvious:
The mass flows of money and of people used in making overall forecasts represent a large number of individuals, with individual circumstances – which are not predictable.
People, placed in particular situations, adapt to them,…

andin

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 01:19:08 +1300

there has never been any detailed analysis of Think Big effect. One view is that if NZ had not thunk big the balance of payments problem in the late 1980s would have been devastating to the economy with out the income derived from the think big projects.

One view? I…

linger

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 01:02:37 +1300

(Actual wording of the eligibility summary for returnees is:
You must also have lived in New Zealand for at least 10 years since you turned 20. Five of those years must be since you turned 50
which means that to qualify at age 65, anyone who left NZ before age…

linger

Thu, 03 Nov 2011 00:23:44 +1300

The mass of expatriate NZers also has to be included in the wider scheme of things – which could make any plans based on the existing NZ population wildly inaccurate. It is anybody’s guess how many of the half-million-strong Kiwi diaspora will eventually return to NZ, and how many will…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:57:36 +1300

What individuals do & experience & how they react is totally relevant/ important to any scheme where individuals contribute – forced contributions or otherwise – and they very definitely count. I fail to see how on earth your latest comment contributes any light.

Anyway, I'm off to bed.
Nighty ra.

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:49:38 +1300

Overall money flows into and out of the scheme are not affected by anyone's experience. That's a different thing altogether and no one is saying it's not important in itself – just not at all relevant to this particular matter.

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:42:31 +1300

The entire scheme – and its affordability – is made up of individuals.
Each of us count. Our experiences count.
Deny that, and we are back in some miasma of neolib perfection where individuals are irrelevant in the greater 'scheme of things.'

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:36:55 +1300

We were talking about the affordability of the entire scheme, not how well or poorly any individual fared.

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:35:09 +1300

Yes. And the ground rules altered while I was paying heaps. That's all I am saying, but my comments stand.

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:31:56 +1300

The top personal tax rate was 66% when the current superannuation scheme was introduced. That is all I'm saying.

Your situation is more exceptional than you seem to believe but in any case it is completely irrelevant to the two facts I've stated and that's all I have to say…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:30:39 +1300

The fact is that our parents had an interest free government loan to buy a house costing $10,000 in 1970 while facing no loan to the government from their education. That generation is now treating ours differently even though it is not our fault.

You are kidding me. A house…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 23:24:30 +1300

It is *part* of the equation ( I am not unique & my situation is not unique & until these outlier factors are taken into account you will have a *lot* of disgruntled people/taxpayers very unhappy about the whole matter. There just isnt a a continiuum of advantage. E.g. I find Andre’s…

Andre

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:45:31 +1300

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:42:43 +1300

With respect, your personal experience does not affect the broader economics of the equation.

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:33:58 +1300

O! O! O!

I have been seeking that reference for those books for nearly ten months!

Thank you Ian!

(Now- onward! To winning Lotto!)

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:29:41 +1300

an economy
of words...
Let’s wait and see-
weight and sea
rimes with anchors
wade antsy
slime n ankles
way dandy sieze
crimes that rankle
whey dance seed
cries spilt milk
ova...

...and out

me thinks
I'll do the right
thing and retire
with this great
Shaun Tan book
its…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:29:20 +1300

Yep.
It didnt translate to any benefit (especially including the timing of The Pension) for people like me.
A lot of us are actually in the lose/lose generation, and we will continue to remind others of this.

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:23:31 +1300

That there was a 66% top tax rate when Superannuation was introduced is what it is.

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 22:12:02 +1300

See my post above. There are *always* a large number of exceptions.

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:59:01 +1300

with the usual Twitter facts grain of salt etc etc)

It's a dead straight fact, that one. Just hadn't seen the connection made so clearly.

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:57:11 +1300

Someone pointed out on Twitter that the top tax rate alongside Muldoon’s non-means-tested super scheme was 66%. Fu

I paid that phuquing tax for the one time in my life I earned a really large amount of $$$ (for me.)(And for the next two years of my highest earning period.)…

Gareth Ward

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:35:03 +1300

They've operated under an increasingly low tax environment post Rogernomics

Someone pointed out on Twitter that the top tax rate alongside Muldoon's non-means-tested super scheme was 66%. Funnily enough the 1984 government halved the tax but not the retirement package.

Intriguing (with the usual Twitter facts grain of salt etc…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:34:53 +1300

Let's wait and see-

DexterX

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:30:28 +1300

Simple form – it is the economy and not much is being done about it or will be done about it regardless of the election result.

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:24:13 +1300

Frankly, your comments are nonsensical as far as I am concerned. And, you still still sound/write as a non-Anzer. I dont apologise for this inference.

DexterX

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:20:13 +1300

I don’t agree with you – there has never been any detailed analysis of Think Big effect. One view is that if NZ had not thunk big the balance of payments problem in the late 1980s would have been devastating to the economy with out the income derived from the…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:20:05 +1300

We are talking wind/wave tech?
yes!
Selling power companies? = utter stupidity – but fun& games for merchantbanker types...

the slogan used to be "kill all the lawyers" (thanks Bill!) but I'd disagree with that: the rule of Law (rather than temperamental monarchs, oligarchs or – worst!- religious cretins) is our…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:09:21 +1300

The only thing about that is that the world will keep using aluminium. If Tiwai Pt closes, then the production may be taken up by a fossil fueled smelter in China or Australia and world CO2 production will actually increase.

It can be seen as a way of exporting sustainable…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 21:07:17 +1300

Fuck o dear – okay my language deteriorates the more my heart is engaged/enraged- I thought we had fought these battles – and WON them in the 1970s/80s-

The Comalco thing has always bewildered me: what pollies got paid off for what?
Because sure as shit ANZ lost out, in…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:54:19 +1300

Islander: Contact is looking an new parts of the Clutha to dam, old plans are being dusted off, etc etc – if we sell Contact to the highest bidder who's going to protect our valleys for the next generations

(besides it's time some of those North Island rivers were dammed…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 20:09:00 +1300

WRONG!
Vote out Nacts to prevent ASSET sales.
Vote in Labour & cohorts (because it will be cohorts) and at least look at a revivifyed Superann & fiscally responsible endeavour.

Can I tell you how much I truely, viscerally HATE Muldoon & his Nat government?

I think he totally stuffed/his government stuffed/ our…

DexterX

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:55:01 +1300

Yeah add NZ Bus to that

Intergenerational mismanagement it is a pretty wide catchment- everything gets sold off and phucked over, some of it gets bailed out and bought back other bits just rort the subsidy gravy train and never have to open up their books or deliver an effective…

James Millar

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:46:31 +1300

But won’t the people paid this pension be spending it back into the economy?
It’s not like they are getting it and going out the back and burning it in the incinerator or in some other way taking it out of circulation…

True, but with NZ's persistent [[http://www.interest.co.nz/news/55527/nz-current-account-deficit-nz921m-june-qtr-compared-nz90m-surplus-march-worse-economist-e|current account deficit…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 19:07:03 +1300

There are sections of the NZ populace where welfare is a way of life and is intergenerational

Farming, the banks, Telecom, Air NZ – that sort of thing? You did mean corporate welfare – the really expensive kind?

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:40:46 +1300

Done deal!

Steve Barnes

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:19:19 +1300

But won’t the people paid this pension be spending it back into the economy?It’s not like they are getting it and going out the back and burning it in the incinerator or in some other way taking it out of circulation…

A point that is sadly lost on the beneficiary…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:09:53 +1300

I'll plant the tree, you make the book and we can both be happy :)

merc

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:09:04 +1300

...borrow and spend, borrow and spend.

DexterX

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:06:41 +1300

There are sections of the NZ populace where welfare is a way of life and is intergenerational- however that runs alongside the intergenerational mismanagement of the economy and general lack of gumption by successive government starting, in my view, from 1984.

The problem presently is the economy – when the…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 18:00:51 +1300

pensée...
an automatic pension being paid to anyone aged 65+, funded by general taxation by a shrinking workforce (notwithstanding those over 65 still paying tax) is going to put immense strain on government coffers in coming decades.
But won't the people paid this pension be spending it back into the…

Richard Aston

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:30:16 +1300

I agree James, getting hard on solo mothers and avoiding the bigger – and voter sensitive – area of pensions is appalling behavior for a government. Those woman are bringing up a part of the next generation and on their own as well – our government should have a lot…

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 17:02:32 +1300

guess if we get in life what we came for ,our job is done. I believe in giving, not taking away, and a pension is a grand idea so let’s make it last.

There's an old Talmudic? saying -which I cannot access at the moment- that says if we have…

James Millar

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:52:13 +1300

Yes I am aware of those projections – but they partially are based on assumptions that retired people will make no contribution to the economy ie they will be a burden. The people ratios also don’t allow for income differences (between retired and working people) and therefore tax take over…

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:48:25 +1300

NZ needs more revenue-earning export businesses.

steve black

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:47:24 +1300

But what about a finer tuning of super – asset testing, income testing or even basic needs testing…

I know many people who are asset rich, have incomes ( investments) and consider getting super a nice little bonus. Surely that just does not make any sense.

…don’t tell me its…

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:46:45 +1300

They've operated under an increasingly low tax environment post Rogernomics

Someone pointed out on Twitter that the top tax rate alongside Muldoon's non-means-tested super scheme was 66%. Funnily enough the 1984 government halved the tax but not the retirement package.

BenWilson

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:36:59 +1300

One of the problems I've heard mentioned about that massive pool of money is that there aren't a huge number of places to invest the money in New Zealand and still get a decent return.

There's plenty of traditional business. Much though I agree that science is a driver of…

Gareth Ward

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:35:50 +1300

Those people over 60 (over 55 really) who are stating that they've paid taxes under a social contract that would repay that universally at retirement are probably quite correct but, with due respect, a red herring to this argument. We are talking about the retirement policies for the boomers currently…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:31:58 +1300

(and I have a modest lifestyle.

And how sweet that can be. The juggling of the monies can provide wisdom and skills that so many with so much have yet to learn and these people may be well into their 70's. I guess if we get in life what we…

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:31:28 +1300

And we don't need to generate any new ideas.

You're misrepresenting the investment in new research even though we both agree it's nowhere near enough. As for the other stuff, you're free to believe whatever you want to.

Richard Aston

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:21:59 +1300

The problem lies in that there has been such a demographic bulge such that there are simply far more baby boomers than there are of other generations. Because of this, over 65s are projected to go from 12% of the population now to over 25% in a few decades, and…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:18:33 +1300

No that’s really what I am going to do … right now …

Yeah and my man was off to work at oh 10.am this morning. Now he's making plans for the Britomart Country Club. :)

Islander

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:18:23 +1300

I love what I work at, and intend to continue with it for all the time I am capable of
writing BUT – it actually doesnt make enough for me to live on* (and I have a modest lifestyle.)
I look forward to being a beneficiary with considerable anticipation, for…

stever@cs.waikato.ac.nz

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:15:45 +1300

Some +s there too.

In my area (prog and spec langs and logics in computer science...sorry!) things that really make a huge difference take (looking at the history) 20, 30, 40 years from the original research to possible fruition. E.g, code contracts turning up in .NET, starting with work of…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:13:18 +1300

Is that a euphemism?

No that's really what I am going to do ... right now ...

Bart Janssen

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:12:25 +1300

but NZ’s current indequate performance in those areas is wasting much of our good basic research.

That's a myth Sasha. Around the world most basic research that gets spun out to develop into a product fails. Of 100 ideas maybe 10 will survive 5 years and only 1 might produce…

Richard Aston

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:09:00 +1300

I better go pollenate my petunias.
Is that legal?

Carol Stewart

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:07:12 +1300

I better go pollenate my petunias

Is that a euphemism? ;-)

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:04:00 +1300

If you look around the world those small startups are usually clustered around good research communities

True

Bart Janssen

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 16:03:02 +1300

I think Labour’s plank could very well be transformative.

One of the problems I've heard mentioned about that massive pool of money is that there aren't a huge number of places to invest the money in New Zealand and still get a decent return. The managers will be obliged to…

webweaver

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:58:20 +1300

Wait – what? You get given a pension automatically when you turn 65 – whether or not you’re still working? I did not know that. How odd.

I’ve been working on the assumption that there won’t be any money in the pot to pay for my pension by the time…

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:57:57 +1300

If 25% of the population are going to be retired

the flawed assumption in all this is that people's contribution drops to zero.

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:56:35 +1300

NOT innovation, NOT tech transfer

but NZ's current indequate performance in those areas is wasting much of our good basic research.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:55:54 +1300

I don't really believe in pre-funding. If 25% of the population are going to be retired, the other 75% will have to produce the goods and services they consume.

A big pile of money doesn't change that. Sure, in theory some things can be imported, and others can switch from…

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:54:54 +1300

Future creative industries will depend on a knowledge base beyond what we currently call science. I'd like to see a more transparent and rational system for allocating public investment now for future prosperity.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:52:32 +1300

Why can’t we just use other people’s research?

You can. And we do. But if someone else did the primary research then they get the greatest benefit because any time you derive something of value from it you have to pay them a cut.

That's why making the primary discoveries…

Sacha

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:50:44 +1300

This needs to be addressed and it's good that it's on the table now.

The last government set up the Cullen fund as part of pre-funding the retirement bulge, as well as KiwiSaver.

Current government promptly cut both yet it seems voters love their short-sighted optimism. Just as with Muldoon…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:49:25 +1300

As someone working in a university history department, I’m not sure I like the sound of that.

Are you saying you don't think history is/can be scientific?

I'm not saying only wet bench science gets funding, I'd want any quality science to be funded. So long as it is high…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 15:31:36 +1300

Should pensions then be linked, not to age per se, but to number of years in the workforce

Not if those years were spent behind a desk running a finance company into the ground for your own benefit at the expense of others. No.

James Millar

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:56:05 +1300

I have been struggling to understand the other line that goes “I paid tax all my life so I deserve some back when I am old” it doesn’t feel right and as others have pointed out it does actually work like that economically.

I think the demographic issue that a…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:34:49 +1300

That is the only thing historically that has led to the kind of transformation that could allow us to retire at 50

Why can't we just use other people's research? Berners-Lee's research was done in Switzerland and mostly paid for by the EU, but all nations benefited depending on their…

Richard Aston

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:33:56 +1300

Raising the retirement age by 2 yrs may have some merit and some economic advantage ( how much I wonder) .

But what about a finer tuning of super – asset testing, income testing or even basic needs testing – do you really need this?

I know many people who…

Richard Aston

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:28:09 +1300

Ben – thanks for writing on the notion of super as a thank you to our elders.

I have been struggling to understand the other line that goes "I paid tax all my life so I deserve some back when I am old" it doesn't feel right and as others…

John Armstrong

Wed, 02 Nov 2011 14:20:11 +1300

the only way such a transformation can occur is if we (and the govt that represents us) invest dramatically more in scientific research.

As someone working in a university history department, I'm not sure I like the sound of that.