I'm going to exercise the mighty power given to me in the last upgrade and actually close a thread.

This will be the last blog post evar on the Copyright Must Change thread.

But a thread about ponies will be along soon!

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

...

Don't worry – I wouldn't dare.

Thankyou.

Spokesperson Matthew Bolland joins a surprisingly agreeable if poorly-led conversation on TVNZ's Close Up with Arthur Baysting of APRA and Bronwyn-Holiday Smith from the Creative Freedom Foundation.

things like this -sans formal publishing input- already exist : for instance,…

Round Table will bring to the social networking platform not just finished content, but many aspects of the publishing process—including, for authors open to the idea, peer editing. The idea is that feedback and…

irony pyrates--the fools gold

I am a storyteller of the old kind – I flick away words and lines everyday, and wouldnt ever…

I always had a vision of books – as repositories of ideas – being story tellers by artifice (artifiction perhaps) and proxy – their…

Simon how did the Box/CC night go?

Rather well actually. As someone said, we emptied the Lawn Bowls clubs and Bingo Halls that weekend.

I wonder what size chunk of change has been kept from artists by second-(and third, fourth...ad infinitum)-hand sales?
(ditto for books...)

Seriously! Surely the content/song…

It was used as a reason for making CDs MORE expensive, even though they were cheaper to produce and distribute than vinyl.

AFAIR the rationale at the time was the cost of developing the technology, which was also used to reduce CD royalties to artists by 75%

Because at the…

As soon as I got a new CD I'd rip it to my server and keep the original as back up.

What year are we talking about? Who had CD-Rom players and the requisite server space at the time when CDs and CD players started to take hold? My first…

Steve: the move to CDs has been canvassed: the companies were very aware at the time of the move of the 'dangers' of copying. It was used as a reason for making CDs MORE expensive, even though they were cheaper to produce and distribute than vinyl.

Really? Because at the…

"The new format, CD" it made their end of the deal a…

The case is shrouded in secrecy, but the Sunday Star-Times has been told the music industry is seeking a four-fold increase in royalties from the country's two major radio networks.
...

Suppression orders are expected to be imposed tomorrow,…

(And really, he's relying on wikipedia? Look, there's eating your own dogfood, and there's drinking the kool-aid.)

I may be a blowhard, but I’m not a hypocrite

Thanks Keir, et al- saw that too, rather later...
Anderson has earned some respect, and that helps. He's usually interesting- as is wired- and future-looking. I think here he's interesting too: but interestingly wrong- in about sixteen ways (and wrong…

I may be a blowhard, but I’m not a hypocrite. “Free” will be free. Ebooks free for first week, web book (Google Books) free for first month, abridged audiobook free to all hardcover purchasers and unabridged audiobook (the whole thing) free to everyone forever.

yeah, but he goes on to…

1:herding cats
2:authors *mainly* ARE the publishing rights holders – but Publishers
(capital P intended) are the ones der govvinment talk to-

How many y'all guys say want freestyle?
There will be no blows not freestyle
This style is not free, the style is expensive alright!!
Hold tight youth

Leftfield – Dusted ft. Roots Manuva

and stuff all the creators – so there wont be creatora – so

I may be a blowhard, but I’m not a hypocrite. “Free” will be free. Ebooks free for first week, web book (Google Books) free for first month, abridged audiobook free to all hardcover purchasers and unabridged audiobook (the whole thing) free to everyone forever.

…

I hadn't realised that Youtube was like a supermarket loss leader for Google. The Amazon/Kindle deal scooping 70% plus all distribution rights bears out Islander's experience/fears on that front.

Chris Anderson’s new book, “Free: The Future of a Radical Price” (Hyperion; $26.99)

A good review of the Joywar controversy.

I'll have a little Elvis with that please.

The bid by the Phonographic Performance Company of Australia, which represents more than 750 record companies, follows a decision by the Copyright Tribunal to approve an increase of 15 times the music costs for the nightclub industry,…

main proponent banned

Just in case people are wondering what Rich is talking about.

Has it changed yet? (sb)

no, but it must. (roberee)

And Simon strikes gold

Actually Rob, apart from the silly bit at the end you are 100% wrong,

Thanks rob. Its been a pressure and a pilferage.

Exit polls in Sweden suggest the Pirate Party, which advocates the shortening the duration of copyright protection and allowing non-commercial file-sharing between individuals, has won a seat with 7.4% of the…

"how ignorant art thou in thy pride of wisdom!"

Mary Shelley – Frankenstein 1818.

now hurry up and make a grand exit only to return 2 pages later.

If I return, it's going to be on page 1.

can spawn some nasty sequels.

nasty? the second one was better than the first.
This is a sequel anyway.

before it came

discussion on copyright
and a bunch of guest roles in other threads,
its a shame this one has become the leader, its original premise was about that sad…

If they ever make PAS-The Movie, it's going to be about one of us going back in time to prevent this thread from getting started in the first place.

you're enjoying it Giovanni, and you know it.
if it wasn't entertaining you you'd be clipping you nails in front of…

I would volunteer for this dangerous mission.

Can we all go home now?

since no one seems to want to engage you on anything you've said in since forever it would seem prudent for you to go home and stay there. you're a real thread killer.

back to ignore igor mode.

You've already admitted you don't listen to new music.

please do point me to that exact quote simon. no really, I'm dying to see it.

From a person who's already admitted they've not listened to much new music since 1982 that's rather funny

wow, there you go again, you really…

Can we all go home now?

I'll get my hat and coat

It has everything to do with it. It's the core of the argument. You've already admitted you don't listen to new music.

Somebody must have linked to this already.

you're missing the reason they did it, which was the whole point of my post. economies of scale buddy, its more economical. I'm not 100% wrong, you 100% missed what I was saying.

No, I'm still right..it was conceived to combine tracks that were often very profitable in their own…

don't know why that link didn't work. it did in preview
anyway, giovanni's comment at the bottom of page 104 regarding your broad generalization that everyone is exactly the same as you when it comes to downloading music.

you are 100% wrong,

read this to see why the things you have observed happen happen.

there's not quite as much mythology in it as you like.

the album was conceived by RCA

you're missing the reason they did it, which was the whole point of my post. economies of…

Given the history of this thread I am unclear why you would think that is not relevant.

I think it is relevant; I just don't think it helps.

I'm sure you're right that robbery's not going to win any Poster of the Year awards; I just don't think that there's…

The album concept didn't come about because some evil label thought it would be a good way to cover their cocaine parties,

Actually Rob, apart from the silly bit at the end you are 100% wrong, the album was conceived by RCA in the 1930s and perfected by Columbia in…

This adds what to the conversation, really?

thanks keir
just ignore him. I find it relatively easy.

This adds what to the conversation, really? You could have just gone straight to the interesting bit without needing any dig at anyone else.

And I really don't believe that rob's talking about copying=theft, he's actually currently having a semi-sensible conversation about the costs of making music at the moment…

Uh, I think you'll find Rob has just claimed that copying is theft for the umpteenth time, so nothing is changing in at least one hermetically sealed universe.

This adds what to the conversation, really? You could have just gone straight to the interesting bit without needing any dig at…

Has it changed yet?

No.

Cory Doctorow drew world attention to this. Solid background from IP Watch, and an insider story from one of the people who got things moving in the first place, blind New Zealander Jonathan Mosen.

Meanwhile, there are pressing copyright issues like our representatives joining an attempt to kill a proposed WIPO treaty about international access to…

should never have been forced to make an album

and they weren't forced.
They thought you actually liked their music, all of it, not just their highly entertaining crowd pleaser. everyone's here to stay till the tide of fashion turns its back on them. OMC can walk up and grab…

Has it changed yet?

no, but it must.

But you miss the point,

or you miss mine, which I'll restate for you, and I think you're even making this point yourself.
your reflex action to argue against every word I say seems to have kicked in. i've got an excuse for wasting time arguing on the internet (its…

But you miss the point, which is that OMC covered all costs out of NZ and Australasian sales....not the out of the ballpark stuff you mention. Lots of other records have made good money just from local income.…

they've had a variable pricing structure for about six months now.

Yes, but you understand my point.
in all new releases for one week they didn't all cost the same to make. allowing for discounting for promotional effect the prices don't vary. same with retail, its $24.95, $29.95, $34.95 or…

Itunes one price fits all method hides and straight jackets a very diverse process.

they've had a variable pricing structure for about six months now.

A reasonable one hit wonder can also cover costs pretty quickly...going back a decade we'd recouped 2 videos and an album from sales of How…

Hmmm, I'm downloading it right now. Do they go by IP address or credit card details?

I can only guess that because you registered in the US they've decided that's where you are.

And, happily, Brad from Ghostly sent me a nice email to apologise and provide a working link.…

The problem is, the record labels, big and small, but especially the big ones, have learned to reply on me spending that $25 but I no longer do and thus the economics that define their very existence are threatened by the fact I don't.

Acknowledged and agreed.
what often isn't…

but if it's just going to be a straight transfer of the fleecing right to another set of corporations in a different industry, then maybe we could reserve our judgment on whether to call it progress.

No argument there, Gio and I think it's something we have to be thoroughly…

are units now single songs? just asking cos its something I'm not clear on.

Units are and have always been sales as a single transaction whether it's one track or 12. The sale of a 45 is a unit sale with two tracks as the sale of an album.

In…

but from a multi billion dollar corporation's pov

I guess that's part of the problem, I'm not interested in the picture from their point of view, its completely irrelevant to me what they feel, I look at it from the huge growing independent point of view. you gave us the…

Piracy is a problem, I agree ,but from a multi billion dollar corporation's pov the fact that their customers only want to buy 1/12 of their product is a much, much bigger one.

I think most of us will agree with that, as well as with the rest of your…

Now his new album, Moondagger, the first with a full band, is out. It's on eMusic, but not available to people in New Zealand.

Hmmm, I'm downloading it right now. Do they go by IP address or credit card details?

Piracy is a problem, I agree

so what are we arguing about again?

.a massive downturn in gig attendence in Chch....

and your logic is?
there's a massive amount of mullet wearing shifty fuckers down here simon. crims are your audience.
make a breaking and entering kit (crow bar, night vision goggles and some CSI gloves) part of the cd package and you'll…

that unit sales are rising

define unit,
units were 10-12 songs ie an album
are units now single songs? just asking cos its something I'm not clear on.

Is this some kind of Stupid Contest?

patience dear customer, some of these people are trying their best in very difficult new technology.
I personally tried to make a one click on line download story for my shitty home recordings, talked to heaps of 'knowledgeable' people who looked into it…

Yes, I know Mark questioned but I was meaning by myself.

is that what you mean by

Nobody has ever denied

meaning nobody of any significance, in which case I accept your statement.

But I don't think any act has ever lost a sale or a penny because I've done…

I've now got several album tracks off Hype Machine and am looking for a torrent

but shit, you realise what this is gonna mean...a massive downturn in gig attendence in Chch....

then I don't see how you can extrapolate your own experience and say that it applies to such a large group of people.

Ok I accept that but the two bits of data we do have are that unit sales are rising..quite a bit in some territories, and that people…

Now his new album, Moondagger , the first with a full band, is out. It's on eMusic, but not available to people in…

But I don't think any act has ever lost a sale or a penny because I've done so and that covers most people downloading.

That's pretty unsubstantiated, though, wouldn't you say? A more honest answer would be that we don't know. It's impossible to disambiguate the evidence that there is,…

I think it was mark as questioner of all statistics not personally gathered by himself, as also noed by giovanni.

Yes, I know Mark questioned but I was meaning by myself. I don't think there is any question people download songs...I do from time to time.

But I don't think…

Nope, never in 104 pages been quibbled about Rob

you haven't, you freely acknowledge it, by opening your eyes and looking around you. I think it was mark as questioner of all statistics not personally gathered by himself, as also noed by giovanni.

It's a bunch of opinions.

quite possibly,…

Nobody has ever denied that people download and vast amounts is downloaded.

Mark quibbled about that plenty, actually. He was willing to accept the number of files legally downloaded and paid for but not accept an estimate of the number of shared downloads.

But there is no evidence of any vast loss to the industry caused by people stealing music. None. Myself I think there are losses but most of those are…

Repeat...no-body has ever quibbled with that,

I'm pretty sure that everything has been "quibbled" about simon. its 104 pages long!!!

but we're all still wondering where the evidence that backs the vast losses allegedly caused by this

Well lets see if we can follow this logic, if we take lessig…

70% of kids illegally download? what's he doing bandying about those statistics without an approved source sited?

Repeat...no-body has ever quibbled with that, but we're all still wondering where the evidence that backs the vast losses allegedly caused by this. It seems to be MIA.

He couldn't handle Colbert's ribbing *in character*, which was rather odd

that was really really funny, and revealing.
loved colbert writing his own name on lessig's book and calling it his own. brilliant.

70% of kids illegally download? what's he doing bandying about those statistics without an approved source sited?

Anyhow, here's the link. Came across as a humourless twerp who can't handle his ideas being challenged, in my humble estimation.

It might be fairer to say he's an engaging lecturer and writer and a terrible interview subject. I thought the interview I did with him was okay, until I…

Anyhow, here's the link. Came across as a humourless twerp who can't handle his ideas being challenged, in my humble estimation.

Derek Clarke, the head of South Africa's mapping agency, the CDSM – which moved from a "paid for" to a "free" data model in 2000 through a government edict

when they say free do they mean paid for by govt through taxes?

The Guardian on the Ordinance Survey/free data story/series last week.

The Guardian also had a piece last week on the costs of freedownloads.

"What does teaching and learning look like in the 21st Century? What about 21st Century learning spaces? How can Bloom's Taxonomy be applied to the Digital world?

...the piracy numbers quoted by the Canadian Business Software Alliance (BSA) were based on a hunch rather than any actual surveys of the Canadian public.

It turns out that the BSA (and the research company who was commissioned to create the report) used…

what with neither being at all true.

go to a bit torrent site like this one https://isohunt.com/
search for a new release movie and look at the comments and votes for the file. minus means a reported bogus file. nothing means unknown. if you don't know to read the comments…

bogus files make up a large proportion of bit torrent files.

That's rather like saying heroin makes up a large proportion of marijuana baggies, what with neither being at all true. OK, don't download dialers or other trojans from teh www, and a torrent of a passworded archive file is…

YMMV

And if the only and easiest way to avoid the consequences of legislation would be to not use digital media – that would be a sad day.

well there's sourcing the material legally and buying it with department budgets.
That would ensure that you didn't have to rely on youtube…

I agree the uncertainty is unsettling. But surely you're not really thinking you can't read aloud to students?

Definitely not – sorry – should have added a tag to that bit – my point being, I'm not sure where or why the copyright claim is being applied to the piece…

as a teacher how do you use and how do you want to use copy protected material from dvd for teaching. we're short on real world examples and would love to hear your requirements.

First up – the amount of paper based analog school content that is photocopied and breaks…

as a teacher how do you use and how do you want to use copy protected material from dvd for teaching.

I'd be interested to hear that, too. Do you want to be able to copy dvds and hand them out to students? Or is it simply making a back-up…

Up for consideration during the 2009 exemption hearings is whether this exemption should be extended to apply to faculty teaching in all disciplines, and whether the exemption should apply to students.

That's the interesting part right there.

as a teacher how do you use and how do you want to use copy protected material from dvd for teaching. we're short on real world examples and would love to hear your requirements.

then editing the resulting footage…

This was flagged on boingboing, so some may have seen it. As a teacher, who could possibly be in breach of copyright at anytime,…

Except it's easy to block internet ads. I don't, but, to be honest, I find them easy to ignore- except for the annoying ones, and who wants to reward them. I can't think of one I've ever clicked. I've certainly never bought anything that way.

I follow add links if…

but air 808 would be a new one.

maybe that's all the guys with their arms folded standing behind the dj.
all step entered drum patterns they did before the show. hit start and watch it play back.

don't know if there's a hip hop equivalent cos they steal all their drum beats....

what? too soon?

Heh. Air turntables yes, but air 808 would be a new one.

make that bang bang quiet

I prefer to beat air drums. Tried to start a band actually but it's hard to think of a name since Quiet Riot is taken.

The Silent Knights?

would all depend what genre you're air drumming in.

if you're a post rock Canadian wave band perhaps the librarian drum academy…

I prefer to beat air drums. Tried to start a band actually but it's hard to think of a name since Quiet Riot is taken.

The Silent Knights?

end of free – from the guardian

It is the music business that has been caught struggling in the web the longest. The decline in…

I prefer to beat air drums.

my mental image of this might not actually match the cold hard reality of it but it gave me a chuckle.
drumming including the air variety is all in how you hold your mouth while doing it. if you master that you have a…

Beats an air guitar any day.

I prefer to beat air drums. Tried to start a band actually but it's hard to think of a name since Quiet Riot is taken.

Also, posting in thread I quit, lol.

I've got an Epiphone guitar and valve amp, that I don't really know how to play. Its ornamental.

Beats an air guitar any day.

I actually quite like you and it's getting us into areas we don't need to go to

I love you too bro,

.... man hug???

is a little premature, and possibly a little blinkered from your personal perspective. Russell was fairer with his "of the popular music era" comment and if he'd added on "in western culture" that would have been more on the money.

Thus proving how woefuly out of touch you are..do you…

is a bit bitter and twisted that there is no audience for the music his mates and scene are making and playing,

correct me if I'm wrong but haven't I made this point quite a few times already. its not that there is no audience it's that the audience expects…

Liking or not liking the genre is neither here nor there Rob.

apparently to you it is which is what's reeked about your comments on it.

And I'm thinking that not understanding it's importance or being an informed observer of what's happened since about '82 probably disqualifies you

and it…

I'm not going to make sweeping generalisation about what essentially boils down to a matter of taste. I'll leave that to you.

Liking or not liking the genre is neither here nor there Rob. I don't like huge parts of it but so what. I'm not a fan of bluegrass…

and how long has hip hop been around. didn't you say 30 years, so doesn't that same statement apply to you? you're still hyped by a genre that's been around for 20 years and to be honest hasn't progressed as…

can't count

More like won't count. what the fuck are you doing actually counting 100 pages on a pointless discussion forum. have you not got drinks with umbrellas to be sipping on beach front apartment balcony's?
you give excess a bad name.

101 is the completion of 100 pages. the…

You've never worked for one, so how could you possibly know what you're talking about?

that's not true. I used to deliver the super value circular to your mums house.

but you'll notice I wasn't actually commenting on it, I was just giving you experts on everything something to chomp…

My Dad loves Captain and Tennille.

Captain used to hang with Charles Manson.

Behind that sugary façade....

100-odd pages and no closer to resolution!

Not true.

In the last 24 hours we've worked out that Rob a) hasn't liked or listened much to anything since 1982, b) can't count, c) is a bit bitter and twisted that there is no audience for the music his mates and…

But with many of the media's big players – including Rupert Murdoch – thinking of charging for content, is the tide about to turn?

You're not allowed to mention newspapers, Rob. You've never worked for one, so how could you possibly know what you're talking about?

But seriously, the Murdoch…

beat you grigg,
too slow,
pg 101 is the actual 100th page since there is no page zero.
nice doing battle with you.

I think Jake Pollock needs to revisit this thread in his blog.

101 pages of people arguing with someone who can't count. I think the internet just…

For a decade now, consumers have become accustomed to free access to music, films and information, via the internet. But with many of the media's big players – including Rupert Murdoch – thinking of charging for content, is the tide about to turn?…

Dad Joke. You're getting old, Rob.

you got me there steve.
Well played.
Hardly lets the other dad comments off the hook though.

I'm fine with you loving both the hip and the hop. knock yourself out wicki wicki wicki

Dad Joke. You're getting old, Rob.

"me, not so much with the tagging and ass crack pants"

Still you can always blame

you say blame, I say acknowledge.

Since you've misquoted others up-thread countless times,

point em out. be specific. I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong or made a mistake.

we reached a point where we agree and move on.

you are the consummate debater but seriously, if you had a point to make with the 'don't…

sorry, I haven't got a clue

Since you've misquoted others up-thread countless times, best I take your words and I say we reached a point where we agree and move on.

I'm hoping, given that, you don't charge artists to record their music. I'd see it as devaluing their potential copyrights.

sorry, I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. you'll have to explain it in painstaking detail. I don't recall discussing project budgets with you.

In the US, 42% of bottled water is dirtier than tap water, but you're not selling water, Matt said, "You're selling the Alps."

Now how rock & roll is that ?

post rock, math rock, electronica, drum and bass and a shit load of other genres that don't involve spinning rhymes over drum loops.

you really did get locked in a bubble some time in the past. I'm hoping, given that, you don't charge artists to record their music. I'd see…

some angry dudes would brag over some stolen drum beats

I feel like I've been having this same argument with some rockist dude wearing a 'Rap is Crap' t-shirt since, like, the Paleozoic Era. How do you feel about disco, robbery?

bubble sealed off around 1978.

more like 1982, but then alt country wasn't really a genre then neither was shoegazer, dream pop, post rock, math rock, electronica, drum and bass and a shit load of other genres that don't involve spinning rhymes over drum loops. all of them of course…

not many, if any,

pop a cap in yo' ass,

two reasons parents should be banned from commenting on music.

I think the technical term is dad joke, sometimes referred to in the more familiar term of pop joke. usually based on pun or play on words, a good indicator…

of the popular music era.

he didn't say popular music era he said

one of the most vibrant and important musical genres of all time.

bet those old squares in beethovens time thought their music was vibrant and important, but little did they know in the later part of the…

I notice you didn't show your colours on that comment either. you want to sit on the fence on it too?

Keep on like that and she'll pop a cap in yo' ass, that's all I'm saying.

Personally, hip-hop lets me down more than I'd like, but I'm with Simon:…

it has little or no relevance to my existence in this freezing wasteland of a city.

But y'know, without telling you, I reckon that not many, if any, of those young acts you work with may have avoided a hip hop track or two and quietly, whether you know it…