Yeah, in a western country it would have been a shoe in, here ‘desk sergent’ is not one but many different jobs, ‘police station’ may be part of a few different departments.
Realistically, given a couple of weeks and a few misfires,…

Justice of the Peace is on the list. There are a couple in every suburb, all listed in the phone…

Housing…

Not that I’ve seen much of that, but I’ve looked at enough of the examination of CGT’s and the numerous possible arguments, implementations…

I’d go with 16, because it’s the minimum school leaving, driving license, marriage age among other things.

Which is fine. But the military exemption is there for a reason. It wouldn't be necessary if everyone who ever lived in NZ as a citizen or PR could vote forever, but that's not the current law so that's why there's a military exemption…

Nice context removal, Chris. Way to completely change the argument I was making. I'm impressed at your bad faith and dishonesty.

OK, we're not going to agree on this. Soldiers "might not have" options, but UN workers can always... ignore the quarantine in Nigeria…

Soldiers could be deployed to a war zone for long periods of time.…

Yep. If this is the left, I’d hate to see what the right looks like.

Oh, right, sorry.

I would say that death should be where we draw the line. Citizens should have to die before they lose the right to vote. And no, I do not support the death penalty. So, basically, ....…

No. Those who vote do so with the information at their disposal, which very rarely…

Indeed. I find the idea of extinguishing a person's rights against their will in their country of birth, where quite possibly most of their family are, quite probably a lot of their assets, their inheritances, their social taonga, their memories, their long term dreams, equally…

I don't see why soldiers should be a special case. Why is killing in the name of so much better than making peace in the name…

Personally I'd find…

I was arguing that the soldier exemption was a reason for allowing the UN worker to vote, yes. The original context was my running through the list of disenfranchised people…

The military being able to vote makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is that other absentees can't. The struggle to get the vote took millennia, and I'm always…

That's precisely what I was trying to do. As I wrote:

It’s arbitrary, yes, but it has a rationale, and that rationale is pragmatism – at what age can we expect young people generally to have the maturity necessary to make this…

Where do we draw the line in terms of voting age? Can't we just be pragmatic about this too?

Yes.

I’m actually torn by that one, since the evidence we have is that mental maturity arrives between 25 and 30 for most people.

Oddly proving that Confucius (at least, according to what…

And the very next sentence was

Moz said: Saying "it's easier to measure" or "the media will accept it" or, worse, "the existing voters will accept it" doesn't seem a very sensible stance to me

But then you say…

No, you didn't. You said you wanted some kind of rationale. Pragmatism of the same kind we use to set minimum ages for a whole variety of activities is a rationale, and the one I…

Again you're saying "that's hard" as a reason for not doing it. I'm pointing at a disparity and asking why it exists. If it helps, imagine you have a kiwi soldier…

I explcitly said that I didn't consider "it's simple" as sufficient reason to do it. It would be even simpler to run a one man, one vote system where each voter nominated their successor when they wanted to retire.…

But how do you define that? And more importantly, how do you measure it or impose the necessary test to determine who gets to vote and who doesn't?

We impose minimum ages for many things – driving, having sex, drinking alcohol,…

You seem to have a Key-esque understanding of "many", in that a possible interpretation issue with one of four examples does not mean "many inaccuracies" in conventional english. So, to be pedantic, "there exist prisoners who can vote". Happy?

All the ones who can understand what voting is. I've said this before but I'm happy to say it again, that I'm happy with a geographical restriction (only people legally resident in NZ),…

Yes.

The idea of lowering the voting age to 16 was in the news recentishly, and then there’s the Scotland referendum on independence, in which 16-year-olds could vote.

I think we should lower the voting age – as I…

I’m ambivalent about the most serious of criminal offenders being able to vote.

I absolutely think most people in prison should be able to vote because they’re part of our society and will be affected by…

I don't struggle to imagine it. It could be true, or it could be false, and nobody knows. I'd like…

That's been discussed, and generally the more people understand it the less they like it. By which I mean that scientists who study it don't believe it can be made to work, computer secutiy people regard it as outright impossible (some of them even in theory!)…

Why 16, and why only prisoners rather than all disqualified persons?

I question the extent to which someone can be a libertarian and believe in democracy, however. Libertarianism requires strong limits on state power, much stronger than have ever been accepted by any modern state. The closest would possibly be India…

Well that, except for the (or most) bit, I certainly agree with.

This is not a good comparison. Ben Wilson addressed this on page 2.

http://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-compulsory-voting-and-election-turnout/?p=327821#post327821

I don’t have much further to add to what’s been covered by Alex MacKenzie’s…

Two party votes – one for and one against?
Or would that mean National/Labour cancel each other out except for their electorate seats and Green/NZF/Maori/Conservatives/etc split the 60 party seats between themselves? That'd make for some ... interesting ... post-election…

It's not meant to be a cure-all, it's meant to address a problem in a practical way, rather than calling for a whole lot of things that might indirectly address falling participation in far less bipartisan and far…

Would a 'none of the above' make a difference? It might lower the the number of votes for *anyone* even more.…

Well clearly he meant "not democracy", manifested however that is chosen. He was over-egging it, and I'm quoting it now because it's a beautiful example of how hypocritical a Machiavellian operator like him can be, as a prime mover of scare campaigns against our current opposition.

You're conflating that we have the right not to register any formal vote in our democracy, with…

:- )

Your arguments tend to fail in principle.

An open democracy is just that, and if people are not voting for whatever reason (disaffection, anger, protest, apathy etc) then they are exercising a democratic right to remove themselves from the process.…

and Surely National spent more than $50,000 on their campaign...

The current caucus divisions within…

In Aussie the federal fine is $20, but each state also has their own fines, ranging from $55 to $70.

Australia has about the same percentage of unenrolled as NZ. Turnout is for Federal elections is about 93%. Spoiled or invalid votes is about…

What is that word?

I remember quite a long time ago, when Brash was being hounded for various things, DPF saying "When the government is held accountable, that's called…

Yes, you'll get more of everything – probably on average 25% more, going on the current numbers.

You left out…

I meant both. Society won't benefit either if you force people to vote. You'll simply have more informals, more donkey voting, more voting for recognised names solely on the basis of name…

Can we stop comparing jury duty (which has the potential to go on for weeks) and voting (which lasts a few minutes).

I assume you mean benefit to the individual. The benefit to society as a whole is pretty obvious.

Alex clearly doesn’t support genuine compulsory voting – and nor do I – but rather…

That was a particularly nasty example of the kind of rule the political roost triumphalism that poisoned the Howard era. The intention was to reduce the historical component of ‘civics’ to a bedtime story, by effectively locking off discussion of what Howard termed ‘black armband’…

To get a driver's license I have to go the the issuing centre. To get out of jury duty I need to turn up to court and look dodgy. To enter the country I need to turn up…

Interesting thought.

That's in large part the point of the legal system. You're just not allowed to go wherever you want, whenever you want. Everything from property laws to jails…

And expensive. There's no recognition that the cost of me being away from work is more than just the immediate wages.And it's arbitrary, it amounts to…

Believe Craig was talking about rates as in taxes :)

I put it to you that the reason people consider jury service that way is that the service itself is actually onerous and annoying, not because…

Currently, if you express no confidence by not voting, you might feel good, but so do the parties you dislike, because you have just surrendered…

Definitely. Not just the mechanics, but also why the mechanics are important.

I don't know how to convey this to some people, but I am close to people who literally put their lives on the line for this issue. All of them know…

I asked the intern how she thought she might vote. She said she wan't going to, because she didn't know enough about the parties, so didn't want to vote for the wrong one. Sound reasoning. And all Labour needs…

(also in response to…

Voting places MUST stay open until dead on 7pm. The signage will be taken in before the doors are locked. I would hope that “I can’t get there on the day” will be mitigated by growing awareness of advance voting.

I am still opposed…

Yes please.

Requiring compulsory voting on the grounds that about 30% of the eligible population didn’t vote (including those not enrolled) is telling 30% of the populace that they’re…

With all due and sincere respect to both you and Moz, aren’t you elevating form over substance? If the main “vote-discouraging strategy” is well… politicians and policies…

I rather see Ian's point — it does detract from the logic (or not) of the argument, as far as I'm concerned...

Lots of people do deface the ballot paper so it's a good point. There could be a useful discussion in ways to make that a choice that doesn't really stand against compulsory voting. Perhaps there could be a box provided for creative drawing,…

Yes, it's more trouble than going to a booth and ticking "I don't want to vote", which is a perfectly valid choice. In the case of jury duty you either have to actually have a good reason, or tell a…

In principle I agree, but what does the modern concept of civics education entail?

I remember that in 4th form social…

I've taken that option – though my chosen image was tailored to…

Well,if I just draw a cock on my ballot…

Really, Moz? It also negates groups like the No Land! No House! No Vote! Campaign in South Africa. Whether you agree with them or not, most of the people involved in this campaign…

Over and above the analogy of taxes – which you have no right not to pay (and funnily enough the same people who say this is an infringement on their rights are…

Has any comparable country had such a problem recently and addressed / reversed…

It'd be a pretty hard argument to make that the Democratic and Civil Rights sections of the Bill of Rights don't imply a right to…

QED. The voting system is sufficiently complex that a lot of people have no idea how it works, or more…

Forcing someone that has no interest or knowledge in voting to vote (even if none-of-the-above style…

I don't see how anyone's rights can be enhanced by the state compelling people to participate in a process they…

We do it for juries.

Well an obvious idea is that disaffection could be an option on the ballot. "No confidence" or something like it. It wouldn't change them being disaffected, but we would at…

Forced engagement sounds, well, un-New Zealand.