I'm not sure if it's online, but it is a public copy.

If people can't track a copy down, then come back to me and I'll see what I can do.

I'm not sure what you mean by "None of whom will be allowed to derive from your works without risking being sued." That doesnt make any sense to me.

And finally, I didn't mean to get sucked into this vortex. So I'll try to exit if I can. But it's ... so... hard... Help!

I had to take up hard drugs. A costly move, but in hindsight I think it was worth it.

Also, given the presumption of guilt, good luck proving that you weren't exposed to the song

Which would certainly be a problem if there was a presumption of guilt in copyright cases. But there isn't. A court may presume copying when it can be shown that the defendant had access.…

Copyright limitations as they currently are – lifetime plus 50 years – seem good to me. Any more than that, & you tip over into extreme territory.

May I point out that, when I was a child, most of my olds were dying in their 60s? Now, it's 80s + and…

Not meaning to nitpick, but life of the author plus 70/95 years is not perpetual.

It is for the purposes of nearly anyone alive at the time of creation. Hell, my parents hadn't even met when the Beatles were recording and I still very likely won't be alive when their…

That is, effectively, perpetual

Not meaning to nitpick, but life of the author plus 70/95 years is not perpetual. You can't assume the copyright term will be further extended. The last extension was controversial and caused the US some issues with the EU and other countries. I'm not saying it…

Copyright limitations as they currently are…

Firstly, only the most rabid of copyright proponents (and I agree there are some) argue for perpetual copyright.

Scott, at this point in time life-plus-significant-percentages-of-the-average-lifespan is the ordinary copyright term. As I pointed out here, current limits ensure that the children of creators will be dead before their parents'…

Firstly, only the most rabid of copyright proponents (and I agree there are some) argue for perpetual copyright.

Secondly, the argument that copyright stifles creativity…

This fictional piece, though, is a very good explanation of why endlessly extending copyright terms is a very, very bad idea.

And remember, it all started with a mouse.

This fictional piece, though, is a very good explanation of why endlessly extending copyright terms is a very, very bad idea.

The industry's resistance centres around general principles that copyright and DRM ought to be sacredly preserved at any cost

At least in the Wired article the author found sources that have big copyright saying, absolutely honestly, that their objection is to any lessening of copyright restrictions, with the obvious implication…

Meanwhile, there are pressing copyright issues like our representatives joining an attempt to kill a proposed…

the ones I've discussed it with (ANZ ones) think of it as I do – a social service for the small percentage of people who use the services of the RFOTB (in this country) and equivalent services overseas.

Exactly. It is a social service, and a recognition that life is…

Every contract I have signed specifically *excludes* braille editions or talking -books -for-the-blindfrom my royalties

Wow, that's an interesting clause! I agree that it's a good clause, but it sure looks like the publishers are taking advantage of it somehow (assuming it's a common arrangement).

Interesting debate. Nice that folks are mostly managing to keep their hair on this time around....

I wish I had some to keep.

But yes, ain't it just. I wonder why that is?

I would not have known that people used WiFi like this if I hadn't lived overseas (I am not intending to be patronising), hell I didn't even own a cellphone when I left the country.

A lot of NZers will be using the tools in this…

I guess you're that guy that walks into the pub and eats all the free peanuts.

I think, Steve, if anything, this illustrates an failure to grasp what wi-fi has become in many places. It's simply not just an add-on to a cafe, pub or whatever, to kill time, check…

They don't need to be. They just need to use software written by people who are.

Which would be a good reason for the Landlord to be absolved of liability.
Alternativly you could attach one of These to your network to warn of impending doom.

But Joe (insert denigrating Noun here) Public, is a dedicated Hacker?

They don't need to be. They just need to use software written by people who are.

Maybe you could try understand what Matthew and I are saying: you can't make undesirable activity difficult without making kosher activity difficult too.…

So you've already blocked all HTTPS traffic, meaning people cannot use web banking, or make purchases online. Strike one, in that you, the advocate of this system, missed out one of the fundamental "legitimate" ports.

Cough

Port 110, 25, 995, 465 for eMail
and so on, I'm sure you…

closing all ports other than;
Port 80 for http traffic
Port 110, 25, 995, 465 for eMail

So you've already blocked all HTTPS traffic, meaning people cannot use web banking, or make purchases online. Strike one, in that you, the advocate of this system, missed out one of the fundamental…

you don't feel as if there's enough solid evidence to justify some form of reasonably balanced intervention, and I do. That's cool, we can agree to disagree.

I already said way, way back that we were going to have to agree to disagree. For one thing, we can't even agree…

I think it's unfair to expect a lay person to configure a consumer level device that way.

But granting that for the moment, I also think restricting particular kinds of packets or particular ports because of the perceived likely…

...your port solution is not an option. And so on...

resistance is futile... All your port are belong to US.
Anyway, it's Saturday and I'm buggered if I am going to spend the evening arguing with you lot. have fun.

And as for a NZ POV we pay for bandwidth here and I wouldn't want to be paying for someone to come into my pub, get a glass of water and download 20 gig a day.

As I say, NZ POV..this was in the UK. Here, and in large parts…

Sure to lock it down totally is nigh on impossible but to put obstacles in place to discourage nefarious activities should be enough to prove that the "Illegal" downloads were not sanctioned by the owner.

So, just to clarify, we are talking about blocking that list I mentioned above? Plus…

Also, supposing for the moment that one could selectively allow some…

it can't be that hard

I think that kind of blithe assumption is one of the factors in the intense heat generated in these debates.

Steve, blocking any category of thing in a reliable and fair way is very, very difficult.

Whitelisting (only allowing things on a list) and blacklisting…

I would block Download sites

Which ones Steve? All of blogger and wordpress? Maybe Yousendit or Soundcloud. YouTube? Google? Or Mediafire, or, since many thousands of normal .com or .co.uk host grey files, all the net?

Pub 'fined £8k' for Wi-Fi copyright infringement

"the likely damage"
To be honest if I were running an open WiFi spot for my patrons I would block Download sites, it can't be that hard and who would really object to that? I would consider it outside reasonable use of a…

Those of us who're saying "We don't have anywhere near enough data on this" are being called any manner of things.

Fair enough, there are some tough comments floating about (particularly on the other threads), but for what it's worth, the worst thing I'd ever accuse you of being would…

Simon, that is simply staggering.

There is so much more, the controlled composition clause in US recording contracts, for example, which effectively says that if the record company owns does not own the publishing then the amount paid out in the US on sales is reduced by 25%.

This is,…

It's of interest that the US, where mindboggling and ludicrous settlements have been sought by the industry and awarded against small offenders by the courts, is the one nation whose recording industry is still struggling revenue wise (Warner Music posted yet another loss today).

An interesting part of those settlements…

One of the problems with the "can't make money selling movies on the internet" line is that is seems to assume that the internet is the only way to sell movies

Pretty sure no one ever claimed anything of the sort.

In which case I've drawn a wrong inference. Sorry.…

Simon, that is simply staggering.

Except that, sadly, it's really not. One can't help but suspect that the Americans are so busy trying to get the rest of the world to toe their line that they don't have time to figure out that, actually, there are other ways of doing…

which is exactly $167 more than she made as a performer from US analogue airplay, unlike every other territory of any size on the planet (the media conglomerates using the same exposure argument to counter the current Performance Rights Act before the Senate to rectify this).

Simon, that is simply…

The amusing thing about the above comment is that consumers will vote with their feet.

It's of interest that the US, where mindboggling and ludicrous settlements have been sought by the industry and awarded against small offenders by the courts, is the one nation whose recording industry is still struggling…

One of the problems with the "can't make money selling movies on the internet" line is that is seems to assume that the internet is the only way to sell movies

Pretty sure no one ever claimed anything of the sort.

. But I also think that in the case…

If you think that the utility of the internet isn't improved by the presence of infringing material, well, you've never been to YouTube.

The amusing thing about the above comment is that consumers will vote with their feet. I don't mean YouTube, I'm meaning the media companies that issue takedowns…

Google doesn't like people reducing the utility of the internet

They seem ok playing along with Chinese censorship.

When a movie costs $10m to make, if you can get a million people to buy it at $10 you've recouped all your costs.

Stick to yr day job, buddy. Steer clear of accounting, music, and especially producing films ;)

couldn't even beat out a 70's porn star 'tash on legs for Paul Holmes' old chair.

I usually see Mark in the building on Wednesdays, so I'll pass on your salutations ;-)

He's already 'enabled' by being a television personality.

Isn't Breakfast still a pube hair's breadth away from being cancelled? Way to go, Mr. Personality — couldn't even beat out a 70's porn star 'tash on legs for Paul Holmes' old chair.

IHC are calling for complaints to TVNZ and the Human Rights Commission. About time the childish douche met some consequences.

I'm in two minds (NOT schizoid) about that. Henry is exactly like a toddler who will keep acting out in increasingly extreme and offensive ways, until the adults around him…

the heavily mediated Susan Boyle

And our wee friend Paul Henry has gone one further than accidental innuendo and called her a retard (from 40s in, after the advert). Unlike his preceding comments about Maggie Barry's dress, that description is mighty offensive and up there with the "n" word for…

One of the problems with the "can't make money selling movies on the internet" line is that is seems to assume that the internet is the only way to sell movies.

Certainly not — I don't know about anyone else, but I'll quite often look at the movie listings in…

like listening to an arms dealer complaining about what a violent and unpleasant place the 'hood has become

The UN 'security' council.

Uncomfortably like listening to an arms dealer complaining about what a violent and unpleasant place the 'hood has become.

One can only wonder what the meeting between Sony Music & Sony Electronics was like when discussing the first MP3 Walkman...

I think Peter's caveats on that are well made — it's much easier to get an ROI from music. But that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Oh, I totally accept his caveats. But I also think that in the case of indies they're far less of an issue. When a…

that's not even going to the more digital tools like CD & DVD burners.

And I don't think I'm the first to note the delicious irony that the corporates that, on the one hand, bitch about how they're being slowly murdered by pirates have no issues with selling them... well, branded…

They have voice actors, who are mostly "real" stars. From what I've heard, voice acting can pay pretty damn well, too, though it is certainly far from the rates one garners as an in-the-flesh A-lister.

It's also a far less demanding gig. You don't have to get up at 4am…

One needs to have seen just one Pixar movie in the last decade to be less scathing of the costs of the movie industry, surely? Those things have no stars yet still cost a fortune to make. And they are fucking brilliant, I think most people here would agree.

They…

One thing I recall quite precisely, though, and it's a friend in Canada telling me a few years ago that when the ISPs got rid of data caps over there, after they had been creaming him for his downloading habits for a couple of years, 'coincidentally' they also started a…

One of the most objectionable aspects of s92A was that there was no higher authority to which one could appeal.

There was also the whole element of being presumed guilty and bugger anything that resembled due process with the lights on... You don't have to have a copyright law geek…

Either way, they profit from the perception of downloading as easy and risk free, and will be averse to making it not risk free

There are two parts to the "making it not risk free" discussion, though.

Part one is that whatever the crime, the punishment must be appropriate. Telephone-number…

One needs to have seen just one Pixar movie in the last decade to be less scathing of the costs of the movie industry, surely? Those things have no stars yet still cost a fortune to make. And they are fucking brilliant, I think most people here would agree.

Yes…

... the heavily mediated Susan Boyle ...

Heh.

It can be quite hard to reconcile the three positions into a coherent view unless you realise that for a lot of people the first premise is `yay the internet' and then everything follows from that.

I'm not sure this sort of dismissive polemic from your end is any better.…

Don't discount, too, that such legislation would result in thousands of malicious torrents being created with suspicious names but innocuous (or nonsense) content, just to keep the filtering authorities busy.

What, like they don't already???

I will certainly be a little less scathing of the costs of the movie industry

…

isn't that a total betrayal of the promise of the Internet's universality and same-ness?

But I thought it was a promise of particularity and diversity! Bloody internet, promising everything to everyone...

The phonograph, the wireless, the VCR. Now it's the turn of the internet.

Wait, I know this one – take it away Mr Horrocks.

This thread has made me more tentative in my judgments on all of these issues.

I will certainly be a little less scathing of the costs of the movie industry, based partly on what Peter has said and also on what I've read in researching to contribute.

On the other…

The lesson here is that you should be very, very sceptical about anything major media claims unless it's backed up by hard numbers from outside sources. They're very good at coming up with theories that sound good, even plausible, and then announcing them as fact.

This thread has made me…

My ISP certainly does, seeing as it caps its traffic and has a tiered structure that gets pretty expensive if you download a lot.

I suspect that's because they pay much of their costs based on volume, because it's the international traffic across the cable that is the real rort…

My ISP certainly does, seeing as it caps its traffic and has a tiered structure that gets pretty expensive if you download a lot.

If someone was downloading a lot, then they'd choose a service that supports their addiction, rather than go with low caps & high overage charges. (Which, btw,…

That's not getting into the complexity of trying to capture and assemble streams of traffic, doing matching of traffic types because you can disguise bittorrent to look at a casual glance like other types of traffic, and then the maintenance of a database of hashes of infringing files.

Add in…

ISPs don't profit significantly, as far as I know.

My ISP certainly does, seeing as it caps its traffic and has a tiered structure that gets pretty expensive if you download a lot. Uncapped Internet may be a cost but conversely you could say that the uptake in broadband itself…

Also, there's this concept of common carrier. Ordering ISPs to monitor and enforce…

That's another big concern of mine. There seems very little political willingness to engage with the serious concerns that ISPs have over the costs of monitoring (as Peter has noticed), and who will bear the burden

There also seems to be no willingness to recognise that the ISPs are also…

The constitutional court ruled that the new body could only have the power to issue warnings and that any disconnections could only be ordered by a judge after two written warnings from the new authority.

The sanctions imposed by a judge could also include fines of up to 30,000 euros…

I guess the film industry will expect ISPs to invest in monitoring filesharing, torrents, etc.

There, fixed that for you :P

That's another big concern of mine. There seems very little political willingness to engage with the serious concerns that ISPs have over the costs of monitoring (as Peter has…

the law, which will set up a new regulatory body with the power to investigate suspected illegal downloaders and recommend sanctions, has also been heavily criticised by consumer groups as well as the opposition.

They say it will be ineffective in combating determined pirates…

I don't get why some people seem to think that ISPs should be policing what is effectively a different industry's problem.

I suspect it's mostly to do with uncertainty over how difficult it will be for the ISPs to monitor this stuff.

Oddly, it's very hard to find sensible discussions…

As before, I'm interested in hearing about what might work so that creators can make a sustainable living with strong…

Limited edition physical media with a non-trivial-to-copy design has serious cachet.

Yeah, I dunno. Remember all those limited edition coloured vinyl pressings of things? I feel like that only really works if you've got an inbuilt collector-type audience. Like, say, a bunch of obsessive boomers.

I wish I was able…

They'll probably outsell Michael Jackson this year, and dude DIED.

And are now the biggest selling act of the 2000s which is just odd......

That said, I wish I was able to access one of those wee things, but really.....$280?

And Paul says odd things about the internet and piracy…

here's a solution from The Beatles

Yeah, but... it's the fucking *Beatles*. They'll probably outsell Michael Jackson this year, and dude DIED.

The Beatles have an agreement with EMI to pump out 30,000 apple-shaped USB drives loaded with the band's music in FLAC 44.1KHz 24bit—higher than 16-bit…

Also, all of you with ad or Flash blockers — you're stealing my content. But that's okay.

Not that I do, but if I did I'd like to think that I contribute enough electrons to the discussions to compensate ;)

My personal point of view is that all it would really take is people to feel as if their illegal activities are being monitored for illegal downloading to go down notably.

Who's going to pay for that monitoring, Peter? The ISPs will, quite reasonably, scream bloody murder if the content…

But not having solid indisputable numbers is not a reason to dismiss the argument. It may be a reason to be a little more cautious…

(Also, all of you with ad or Flash blockers — you're stealing my content. But that's okay.)

Ooopsie... had forgotten to Disable ABP on publicaddress.net on my new Firefox install.

As far as flash goes, sorry, no can do. You'll have to prise that particular preference from my cold dead…

On a Monday morning?

I'd say he fully deserves it.

On a Monday morning? I didn't realise things were that bad!

So goes the life of the mind...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUaseg5L0-g&feature=PlayList&p=794FAC23928D490F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=51

Okay that's is. Cheers. Now having that drink Russell suggested ;)

On a Monday morning? I didn't realise things were that bad!

Moving on…

I've got to join with Gio and say you've got nothing to apologise for. I can handle "essays" when they're as interesting and usefully provocative as yours.

There is a very interesting film about the making of Rossellini's Open City that gives a glimpse of this. In the…

Anyway, I’ll just start by answering a few questions.

Movies do cost millions to make. But do they have to

Yes, if we want to actually pay the…

And for those people who can't play it legally (OSX, Linux, etc), there's always bittorrent

I know you're being flippant, but this is back to my point about convenience. So far, if you want to play Blu-Ray discs you have precisely two choice: buy a hardware player, or buy a…

A Dogbert that slides in here nicely

Heh.

But there are ma few flurries. My apologies if I've come across snippy at any point. Let's keep it collegial.

Well, mostly ;-)

instead of just a discussion masquerading as pragmatic that is really just as ideological

Where's the line? Is it impossible for an ideological solution to also be pragmatic? Leaving regulation as it is (or, ideally, cutting terms and codifying fair use) and seeing if a market-based solution (Keir, STFU!) can…

It starts to get hard to draw an ethical distinction between that and downloading

Very, very hard. Particularly since the downloaders are doing it because they want to consume the content. The labels are doing it so they don't have to pay the artists. Some of the former are guilty…

Justified to myself on the grounds that at $10/CD I wasn't giving some part of the big four excessive sums (yes, that is why I don't buy music). Now you're telling me that, quite likely, the artists got none of the money :/

It depends..some is legit budget or mid…

But I can't, because I have my worst gout attack in two years. And yes, I'm on the medication. And I'm going to the Chris Knox launch gig tonight.

Other forms of pain relief may…

What I'm saying, and it's really the extent of it, is – can we have a principled discussion, instead of just a discussion masquerading as pragmatic that is really just as ideological?

Dude, it's hard to be responsible for your characterisation of other people's arguments.

I actually think the discussion…

(And then there's the unsold inventory problem with physical formats – when I see huge piles of legitimate DVDs for $2.95 at JB Hi-Fi, I'm wondering if creators see any of that.)

Ah. I see Simon answered my questions before I posted it:

Or shall we talk about how majors…

Ah. I've been back to page 6 – you underrate yourself. That's a very good post with much to discuss.

Firstly, let's not pretend that just because something is on the internet that the distribution is free: you still need servers, marketing, etc.

It's certainly more of an issue…

That's where most of the stuff in the cheap bins comes from, or those specials

I feel quite dirty now. I haven't bought (or downloaded, before anyone starts!) new music in quite some time, but the last time I did it was from one of those bins. Justified to myself…

that leakage within the music industry's distribution systems was responsible for greater recordable losses than "piracy"

Or shall we talk about how majors regularly mark down stock by acts and then give it away as free 'bonuses' or 'deletions' to retailers, thus avoiding any artist royaties but encouraging large orders…

If it had been a track or two, more power to them, but the whole album sucked, so I arranged for a take-down notice.

That's a really unfortunate way of phrasing it, especially in light of your comments about the album being the poison-of-choice of the labels, carrying only a…

People want songs; some pay, some don't.

Yep, agreed, and I'm thoroughly against the wholesale dissemination of whole catalogues online..really fuck you. I came across an NZ based blog recently that had a whole album that I control up there for "preview purposes". If it had been a track or…

Or borrow tapes and CDs off friends and take copies. And don't get me started on mix tapes!

An article I read a year or so ago said that 95% of respondents to a survey used "sneakernet" – aka giving a copy to your friends.

Personally, I favour doing nothing at the moment (aside from shortening terms and clarifying fair use) and if things get worse introducing some form of public financing, but that's way away in the future, and we'll see what happens.

Finally, something on which we unquestionably agree. It had to happen…

It is equally pertinent to the issue of illegal downloading and copying. People want songs; some pay, some don't.

Totally correct. Some people used to tape songs off the radio, too. Or borrow tapes and CDs off friends and take copies. And don't get me started on mix tapes!

Some…

It is equally pertinent to the issue of illegal downloading and copying. People want songs; some pay, some don't.

Yeah, I think I've got your opinion on that pretty much down by now, Paul, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to what I was saying: I'm just musing about…

I assume that acts that are happy for their works to be widely distributed, will continue to use the internet to put free versions of their work up.

Yeah but it offers so very much more. Many acts are postively using, and encourage remixes, tracks on mixtapes, grey dissemination of…

Because to jump back several pages to one of my earlier posts, which I'll paraphrase: "if the change in technology is affecting the creative output of the country and the culture that we get..." then the rest of the discussion follows.

Based on things said by Simon, the technology is…

I don't have any evidence, just concerns. Interesting to note though that Simon's experience is valuable to you whereas Peter or Keri isn't – could it be that it's because one supports your position, the others don't?

It's not Simon's experience that I'm interested in, though it is handy that…

Hell, many indies and label-free acts I know will be extremely pissed off if ACTA or any other restraint succeeds in wiping out the P2P networks, Hype Machine and blogs as these are crucial to their marketing and very existence.

I assume that acts that are happy for their works…

But why are we doing this with the advent of digital when we've not done it prior?

Because to jump back several pages to one of my earlier posts, which I'll paraphrase: "if the change in technology is affecting the creative output of the country and the culture that we…

Most people don't buy hundreds of albums, though. Most people have a very... intermittent... relationship with music. They aren't completists and they don't care about the album as a 'work'. Most people just want something on in the background to hum along with, or occasionally bop about drunkenly to.

That…

I might have bought a grand total of three versus hundreds of albums

Most people don't buy hundreds of albums, though. Most people have a very... intermittent... relationship with music. They aren't completists and they don't care about the album as a 'work'. Most people just want something on in…

Why introduce state support now?

Mainly I just disagree with this idea that `state support' is something new here. (Also, I really really disagree with inconsistent use of free market rhetoric, because I think selective use of market rhetoric is deeply immoral.)

Personally, I favour doing nothing at the moment…

It took about three years from the release of DVDs before deCSS made it into the wild.

The main issue with CSS was that it prevented legal access to DVDs on systems like Linux, and it was used to enforce region encoding.

Luckily for Blu-ray, region encoding hasn't been enforced…

Your position is that nothing is broken and that to the extent that it might be, it's the industry's fault for not adapting

Hell, many indies and label-free acts I know will be extremely pissed off if ACTA or any other restraint succeeds in wiping out the P2P networks, Hype…

I'll go to my grave with that belief, much as it might have been foisted on my by the evil industry.

And the continuing sales of the format show that we are not alone.

But, and this is an example, I love the track The Great Dominions by The Teardrop…

I did answer it.

Okay, now that you answered it, can we please officially dispel the myth that nobody has made an argument for unregulated downloading? Thank you.

So, now will you answer my question?

Your position is that nothing is broken and that to the extent that it might…

Because Blu-Ray is based on a Virtual Machine to control it's encryption, the protections can change quite rapidly and easily. AnyDVD regularly releases patches to break these protections.

Without devolving this into a debate about encryption and security, I said above that home theatre systems have already lost the hardest…

How about you answer the second half of my question above first, since you bothered to quote it?

I did answer it.

There is no solid justification that's been presented for believing that the rules as applied to music cannot also be applied to books and movies, either.

If that's…

But why are we doing this with the advent of digital when we've not done it prior? Why introduce state support now?
Consumers make choices, that's always been the case.

Consumers never had the choice to take everything for free, unless they chose to only patronise libraries, and in fact…

Yes I did, but that's because, I and many others would argue, that many people simply don't want, and have never wanted, the format, which was largely forced on them by an industry eager to maximise its profits.

Singles were readily available in my music-buying days, I might have bought…

Yes but that's nothing new. You couldn't ever scrape together enough money to support everyone to do everything, you have to make choices. If the government (say) was to step in and provide increased support for artists to maintain or increase cultural output, it would no doubt result in a…

Which leads me to ask, why do you think that we need a new system?

How about you answer the second half of my question above first, since you bothered to quote it?

Simon's argument is that album sales are down because the labels can't now force people to buy…

Didn't you say (and this is a genuine question) that album sales and dollar value were way down? Unit sales hardly tell the whole story, surely.

Yes I did, but that's because, I and many others would argue, that many people simply don't want, and have never wanted, the format,…

how do you propose to “limit the ability to make infringing copies of commercial works such as films and books”?…

I call them incompatible based on consumers all having a fixed level of disposable income

Yes but that's nothing new. You couldn't ever scrape together enough money to support everyone to do everything, you have to make choices. If the government (say) was to step in and provide increased support…

Didn't you say (and this is a genuine question) that album sales and dollar value were way down? Unit sales hardly tell the whole story, surely.

Simon's argument is that album sales are down because the labels can't now force people to buy albums just to get the one two…

Meanwhile, Modern Warfare 2 takes a staggering $550 million in its first five days on sale — and that's while the torrent and warez sites seem to be groaning with cracks and copies of it. People still do seem to buy stuff.

And yet another place where discretionary spending it…

And piracy is killing the music industry how?

Didn't you say (and this is a genuine question) that album sales and dollar value were way down? Unit sales hardly tell the whole story, surely.

That's why I don't like blanket statements about music downloading, or the dismissal of it all as "theft".

For the sake of clarity, I totally agree. I'm equally unimpressed with the position that it's nothing at all like theft, is all.

That's immense and beyond anything we've ever seen before. Even at their height the Fab 4, the biggest act in history by quite some margin, were only selling 6-7 million singles a year in the US

The contrast is even greater when you look at the numbers of singles sold…

The problem is that anecdata isn't all that useful for generalising from if it's coming from a non-typical sample.

It doesn't mean something's not true either. That was prompted by Matthew's light-hearted response to my observation that consumers last week spent $550m on a single work that they could have…

I suspect younger people download and much of the purchasing comes from older customers.

Those track sales in the US for the likes of Lady Gaga and Black Eyed Peas would tend to argue otherwise. These acts are selling, as legal digital downloads, ten million plus tracks a year.

You…

Heh. But seriously, I do. All the time.

People have a tendency to generalise from their own experience. We all do, it's a fairly human thing to do.

The problem is that anecdata isn't all that useful for generalising from if it's coming from a non-typical sample.

Lies. Lies, scandal and statistics! Nobody buys stuff if they can get it on the internet for nothing!

Heh. But seriously, I do. All the time.

Lies. Lies, scandal and statistics! Nobody buys stuff if they can get it on the internet for nothing!

Thank you for reiterating my point there.

Gio, Paul, Peter, Kyle, Keir — where do you all stand on this? What balance best serves the public good? How should we best move forward? Again: put away the moral thunderbolts — what might actually work?

I have no earthly clue. I agree completely with what you write here…

But if you were in your eighties and the bestsellers you wrote 40 years ago went out of copyright, so that copies were being sold everywhere and films being made, of which you got not a cent, you might think otherwise.

Good law strikes a balance between competing interests.

and that's while the torrent and warez sites seem to be groaning with cracks and copies of it. People still do seem to buy stuff.

Lies. Lies, scandal and statistics! Nobody buys stuff if they can get it on the internet for nothing!

OK, I'll stop now. But it really…

Amazon is already on its way to being the ITMS of digital books, and publishers would do well to try and get in behind that right now, before the book industry ends up chasing after a departing train full of consumers who are setting up their own expectations.

Fanboi that…

For some reason this morning I thought it was 50 from publication.

Death plus 50 makes me quite angry. If I publish something now and live into my 80s or 90s, it's going to be 2110-2120 before it falls out of copyright. That is just ridiculous.

It's 50 from first…

And yes, I've read about the scifi writers' experience too BUT there are extremely active sci-fi fan groups who do everything from appreciate the ability to download their favourite authors *and* buy the hard copy to writing fanfic & fanzines.

Up to a point — but it also helps if, like…

There is no good way to set up a site and have something like PayPal to receive the income *and make it profitable.* I know several writers who have tried this, and know of others who have had an equally dismal experience.

Going it alone is pretty much a sure-fire…

It might be worth getting a group of copyright-holders together to meet with the Minister and opposition to express opposition to ACTA, and support for better copyright laws...

Like hell they are. Death-plus-50 is no improvement on death-plus-70 in any material sense.

For some reason this morning I thought it was 50 from publication.

Death plus 50 makes me quite angry. If I publish something now and live into my 80s or 90s, it's going to be 2110-2120…