Public Address | Cafe | Speaker: Abortion: morality and health

George Darroch

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 17:19:15 +1200

I’m happy for at some point the medical system may step in and say “no, an abortion is not appropriate anymore”. So long as all the way up to that point the mother is choosing a legal act that is, under law, her decision. Even at that point there must…

Lilith __

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 16:27:44 +1200

Wow. Thank you.

Danielle

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 15:40:34 +1200

I remember reading quite a lot about late term abortions after George Tiller was murdered. This article (in Esquire, of all places) stayed with me and I just spent a few minutes wading through rabidly pro-life Google results to find it, so believe me when I say it's worth a…

BenWilson

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:52:30 +1200

I’m happy for at some point the medical system may step in and say “no, an abortion is not appropriate anymore”.

Well, there would be either a strict guideline such as fetal age (although that is not an exact science, it can still be reasonably accurately guessed, and some padding…

Lilith __

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:03:11 +1200

See, what makes me uncomfortable is how "right to life" is used to deny women autonomy over their own bodies and lives, but not used to help children have a chance at a decent life. I'm not saying we shouldn't think harder about late-term abortions, but just to keep that…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 13:55:58 +1200

So as far as I can tell what you are saying is somewhere there is a line and you don't want abortion after that line. Which is fine. I have opinions you have opinions.

The key thing for me is that the assumption should be that at no point is…

BenWilson

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 13:27:53 +1200

FWIW, I think your "theoretical hand-wringing" was perfectly acceptable in the context of what this site is about, which is civilly discussing issues in depth. It's something that people who have strong opinions about abortion largely have to just get over, that other people want to discuss the issue in…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 13:06:32 +1200

So I’m glad we persisted with this discussion.

Same. I never felt we were going in circles, so it was always worth talking it through.

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Wed, 24 Jun 2015 12:36:50 +1200

I guess for me I’d rather operate from a position of saying lets say this is legal and in certain exceptions we’ll decide to overrule the mothers’ choice because in the expert opinion of these 3 doctors and psychologists the fetus will survive and be healthy and continuing with the…

Lilith __

Tue, 23 Jun 2015 23:31:30 +1200

Also – we need to acknowledge the viability of very premature babies is an index of wealth and privilege. The majority of the world can't provide intensive care for neonates. Or even protect full-term healthy babies from dying of preventable diseases, hunger and thirst.

Lilith __

Tue, 23 Jun 2015 23:15:20 +1200

Can I state the obvious by saying if a fetus is extracted alive, then it's called birth...?

And I'm really over the hypothetical hand-wringing. Women die from illegal abortions. Thousands of actual born children go without adequate food, clothing and housing. As a society, we should be worrying about that.

Deborah

Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:19:13 +1200

I find myself terribly conflicted in these discussions in some ways, because my ethical position is absolutely clear (per various posts above) but I was born and bred in the Catholic church and that's a hard heritage to shake off, and for many years we battled infertility. So even though…

BenWilson

Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:15:12 +1200

The problem I have with any marker is that immediately allows for marker creep.

Except, of course, birth, which you are treating as a marker.

Bart Janssen

Tue, 23 Jun 2015 18:10:47 +1200

But if you want abortions to be available beyond that point, then it can only be because you think some women will want to have abortions then

Nope that’s not my reason. The problem I have with any marker is that immediately allows for marker creep. That has been the…

Joe Wylie

Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:21:46 +1200

I dunno, it's just weird to go on about this one predictably rare hypothetical. Maybe by the time we get our dream abortion law the procedure can be outsourced to a robot or something!

Or things may have evolved to the point where beard-strokers and kiwi_guy-style fulminators can volunteer to…

Danielle

Tue, 23 Jun 2015 16:12:45 +1200

you think some women will want to have abortions then

The vast, vast majority of women who want to have abortions then will be having them for medical reasons, though, because in our hypothetical scenario they'll all be free to have them for non-medical reasons in the first half of…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:22:40 +1200

What about viability without medical intervention?

I meant "average age of viability without medical intervention" as the point up to which abortion would be available without hoops.

I can't see the logic in saying that I can't consider/discuss/argue/whatever about how or whether abortion could or should be available in late…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 22 Jun 2015 09:54:34 +1200

So can we please stop pissing around with 1 in a million (or whatever) extreme scenarios and simply consider that we should just let women control their own bodies?

Bart Janssen

Mon, 22 Jun 2015 09:49:57 +1200

What about viability without medical intervention?

I wouldn't even go there at all. I was born naturally at full term but my kidneys didn't start up until after I was given a full transfusion to kick start them, that's a medical intervention.

Most premature babies would suffer tremendous harm without…

TracyMac

Sun, 21 Jun 2015 14:48:32 +1200

...general preference for state-funded medical care and progressive taxation rather than my distaste for having to pay for abortions.

I have absolutely the same preference. But given the state of public health offerings for "optional" procedures (like hip replacements), I'd rather the more well-off paid something if the service were…

TracyMac

Sun, 21 Jun 2015 14:38:41 +1200

Thank you.

If people realised that half the women they know have had abortions, the conversation would change.

And yes, it absolutely would.

Lilith __

Sun, 21 Jun 2015 12:48:29 +1200

The Onion.

Lilith __

Sun, 21 Jun 2015 12:32:32 +1200

For those interested in knowing more about adoption, the system is very different now. Open adoption, where the birth mother/parents choose the adoptive family and remain in contact with them, is normal. Link .

Lilith __

Sun, 21 Jun 2015 12:29:10 +1200

Tracy, thanks so much for sharing your experience. Because of the stigma, so few women talk openly about their abortion experiences. And I think this is why conversations about the subject get so theoretical. Somewhat comparable to LGBTIA closeting. If people realised that half the women they know have had…

Moz

Sat, 20 Jun 2015 21:55:04 +1200

I paid 300 quid

Wholly sheet! That's a lot of money. Not compared to giving birth, obviously.

On this one I'm kind simpleminded – abortion should be entirely state-funded, and if a woman wants one the only veto should come from the doctor saying "you might survive the birth, but…

TracyMac

Sat, 20 Jun 2015 14:04:06 +1200

I should say that the reason that the process itself was relatively quick and simple was because Marie Stopes is a private service in the UK (it’s a registered charity), and I paid 300 quid because I could afford it (well, I could pay it off on my credit card).…

TracyMac

Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:52:50 +1200

If you could have seen the sadness and the awfulness of the position my friends found themselves in, and the awfulness of the process. Nobody has an abortion for fun.

Sticking my hand up to say that I HAVE had an abortion and it absolutely was not fun. I’ve always…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Sat, 20 Jun 2015 13:34:31 +1200

I don’t think it’s strange. Our inadequate law now (sort of) allows abortion up to 20 weeks, and even after 20 weeks to save the life of the mother or to prevent serious permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the mother.

I would like the law up…

Danielle

Sat, 20 Jun 2015 12:40:20 +1200

Well, in the USA Dr Tiller carried out late term abortions until he was assassinated. (I think the vast majority of them were for medical reasons.) I dunno, Lucy, I think it’s strange to focus on the possibility that at some time in the future, under a law that we…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Sat, 20 Jun 2015 11:22:04 +1200

Lilith, you’ve raised another relevant point here, indirectly. There’s a difficulty in that those who have had abortions may not wish to disclose that fact on a public message board, if only because of all the crazies out there. An abstract of a study from the Christchurch Health and Developmental…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Sat, 20 Jun 2015 11:10:04 +1200

I'm not suggesting that people have an abortion "for fun", or even lightly. Nor am I suggesting women be forced to carry on a pregnancy to the detriment of their own health.

The problem is the translation of theory and philosophical viewpoint into reality. If there were a *baby disappears*…

B Jones

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 22:03:07 +1200

This is what valuing the life of the fetus over the life of the mother can look like: Pregnant and no civil rights.

Women have died because other people insisted on making that choice for them and got it wrong. In most cases where there are serious health issues with continuing…

Lilith __

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 20:42:06 +1200

I have never had an abortion, but I've been the "buddy" twice. If you could have seen the sadness and the awfulness of the position my friends found themselves in, and the awfulness of the process. Nobody has an abortion for fun.

But women must not be forced to bear…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 19:17:18 +1200

Yes, well aware of that Lilith, I have edited the text to make it clear I was talking about late-stage abortion at that point.

Lilith __

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 19:15:39 +1200

Early abortions *are* just a matter of taking a pill.

Lilith __

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 19:13:53 +1200

For heaven's sake Ben, you utterly missed my point which was about the difference between something's that is human and something with the status of personhood.

A dead body is human. Is it a person? No. Your left kidney is human. Is it a person? No. Artificially inseminated eggs are…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 19:10:35 +1200

Not many, certainly, but there’s always the chance there might be some. Maybe some of those women who don’t find out they’re pregnant until very late in the pregnancy, for example (or until they’re giving birth…).
But maybe it’s a different question then. Maybe it’s a question of if a…

Danielle

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 18:25:16 +1200

But really, how many women are gonna be all "fuck it, there's no abnormality, but let's kill an 8 months gestation foetus"? It's such an edge case it seems almost irrelevant. It's like Deborah and Bart said: anything other than the woman deciding is treating her like a moral infant…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 17:25:27 +1200

Bart, I understand your concern about placing the limit at “viability”, given ongoing medical advances. What about viability without medical intervention? Or possibly without some particular type of intervention – respirator, perhaps? I realise that will include some full-term babies, so we’d be talking averages here.

If a reallly late-term…

George Darroch

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 15:01:08 +1200

Even if you decide that at some point a fetus is “human” you are asking, no forcing, another human to risk their life and health for that fetus.

Yes.

Childbirth is not easy, and nor is it completely safe. In every 100,000 live births, 15 women die.

Bart Janssen

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:54:38 +1200

Because at that point the fetus has sufficient character to be considered human.

Which leads you down the path of finding a marker for "human".

Even if you decide that at some point a fetus is "human" you are asking, no forcing, another human to risk their life and health…

George Darroch

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:35:43 +1200

Because at that point the fetus has sufficient character to be considered human.

George Darroch

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:32:11 +1200

at some point you value the life of the fetus more than the freedom of the mother.

Yes.

Bart Janssen

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:20:19 +1200

But if you don’t define your terms, you create an absence.

But this for me is the problem with defining terms about this. Every single term you define simple states that at some point you value the life of the fetus more than the freedom of the mother.

I recognise…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 14:09:42 +1200

Not if there is some minimum level you pick as significant.

Nope I strongly disagree. There is no point in brain development that is consistent from individual to individual. Any marker you place will have individuals who achieve that marker early late or never.

George Darroch

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 13:43:10 +1200

Even if there is objective morality, not just subjective or cultural, we still face the problem of how to make it happen, and in NZ that unfortunately involves convincing a hell of a lot of OWGs.

And plenty of OWW.

I'm convinced that there is a consensus to allow safe…

BenWilson

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 12:21:36 +1200

What I believe is acceptable is largely irrelevant except for the purposes of having a discussion, with that in mind.

The relevance of your opinion or mine goes way further than only the purposes of discussion. OWGs have disproportionate power, and in a democratic society everyone who can vote has…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 12:11:19 +1200

There are cultures where children are not named until two years after birth because many of those babies will die – some of them because they were not fed because the family simply couldn't afford to feed another mouth. For most cultures that is a really extreme case – yet…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 11:46:57 +1200

the curve of opinion in the range of conception to birth on when abortion should be allowed.

I'm almost certainly on the extreme end. But here's my OWG thinking.

It's the mother's choice.

What I believe is acceptable is largely irrelevant except for the purposes of having a discussion, with…

Craig Young

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 11:46:53 +1200

And insofar as viability goes, one crucial point could be the development of alveoli within the lungs, which doesn't take place until past the twentieth week of pregnancy. According to NZ stats, that's long after most New Zealand women have abortions. In the case of severe and lethal fetal anomalies,…

Craig Young

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 11:42:40 +1200

Certainly yes, but a very large subset. Much of the remainder, at least in New Zealand seems to consist of conservative evangelical/fundamentalist Protestants. And there are some undeniable denominational tensions between the two factions, which adversely affects the viability of the NZ anti-abortion movement.

BenWilson

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 10:26:47 +1200

I'd be especially interested in the curve of opinion in the range of conception to birth on when abortion should be allowed. I'd suggest that it could only be a decreasing number – there wouldn't be many people who thought it was not OK at an earlier phase, but OK…

BenWilson

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 10:14:49 +1200

@deborah
Yes, it’s a vexed moral issue, and there is no clear dividing line between human person / not human person. We’re fairly clear that a baby is a human person (Peter Singer et al not withstanding), and we’re fairly clear that a newly fertilised egg is not (various religious…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Fri, 19 Jun 2015 07:58:20 +1200

Certainly conservative Catholics don't believe in contraception, but conservative Catholics are only a subset of people who are anti-abortion.

Jack Harrison

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 21:04:03 +1200

We have been debating abortion as the sole right of the female human for so long it is now painful for those who have a basic knowledge of human rights. Men have no say in abortion. Get your head around it. It’s not up for discussion anymore in any rational…

Danielle

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:26:15 +1200

Next time try engaging yourself before flouncing.

All of what you said, plus: pro-choice women and feminists are really TIRED of engaging in arguments with bad faith abortion trolls and misogynists. We read these arguments over and over and over again, everywhere, in every comments section. Iain, if you're still…

Craig Young

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 18:36:19 +1200

That, and they make up mendacious factoids about condom and contraceptive reliability and safety. Anything to assist straight guys out of behaving in a responsible manner and assisting their partner in postponing pregnancy or childbearing unless women actively want that.

Craig Young

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 18:34:07 +1200

Yes, except they don't believe in contraception either. Emergency contraception is "verboten" because it is an 'abortifacient' and all other forms of contraception, whether barrier or pharmaceutical are forbidden to conservative Catholic anti-abortionists because they abide by Humanae Vitae (1967). Mind you, that's conservative Catholics. There's a wonderful Catholic feminist…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:57:12 +1200

I’ll bother you no more with the clearly unwelcome suggestion that views you disagree with might still be worth engaging with.
Of course they might be. But it seemed pretty clear kiwi_guy was trolling, looking for a scrap. Attempts to engage in debate were not taken up. Every comment, more…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:54:00 +1200

I could be wrong, but I think that was the original idea behind Birthright. But yes, I'd tend to think that anti-abortionists would better serve their cause by helping such organisations, and providers of contraceptive advice, so as to reduce demand for abortion.

Lilith __

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:31:04 +1200

Without wanting to derail the thread, it’d be nice if anti-abortionists put some effort into helping people who *are* born. With the huge increase of poverty in NZ, so many live human people are suffering. And I would have thought that'd be a moral issue.

Lilith __

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:27:17 +1200

Great comment, and welcome to PAS if no one else already did it.

+1
And thanks Joe for sharing that story.

Iain Thorpe

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 17:17:17 +1200

Sorry I was working on the assumption that this was a place where all views responsibly expressed were welcome. From what you say only some views are welcome here. As I said at the beginning I don't agree with kiwi_guy at all. But I think that you manage somehow to…

BenWilson

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:26:53 +1200

Great comment, and welcome to PAS if no one else already did it.

Moz

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 09:59:52 +1200

I've always thought that free speech is probably the single most important right in our society

Free speech doesn't mean Russell is required to provide a platform for someone to speak. It's the government not persecuting you for saying things, and just as importantly, not persecuting the people who point…

Craig Young

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 09:32:05 +1200

In the case of my family, it was my grandmother's sister who died from a backstreet abortion in the thirties. My mum is named after her. That's why I'm pro-choice.

Craig Young

Thu, 18 Jun 2015 09:30:53 +1200

However, that 'massive technological intervention' also covers a pricetag and in any case, it can't compensate for baseline areas of fetal development such as respiratory alveolar development.

Joe Wylie

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 23:02:47 +1200

She is not ignorant, nor lacking in empathy, and certainly shows no signs of any sense of entitlement. I don’t think she would ever judge a woman for having an abortion...
She sounds rather like a now-departed relative of mine. It was the realisation that people like her wouldn't be…

Lilith __

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 22:35:27 +1200

It's perfectly possible to not be comfortable with having an abortion yourself, but still support the right of every woman to make that choice for herself.

Kumara Republic

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 22:02:51 +1200

I’ve always thought that free speech is probably the single most important right in our society and we are all damaged when it is restricted. Blocking someone on the basis that they might say something upsetting in future while letting others speak is wrong at a very fundamental level.

There’s…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 21:34:06 +1200

I’ve always assumed that anti-abortion sentiment comes from a place where ignorance, lack of empathy, and a massive sense of entitlement cavort merrily together through the fields.

I don’t think it’s as simple as that. I know a very good woman, a good Catholic. By good, I mean I think…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 17:24:58 +1200

I wrote as much last night then must have forgotten to post . Yes always seems to be the case. It's such a coincidence innit ;)

Craig Young

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 17:21:30 +1200

Yeah, Emma, it's called patriarchal religious social conservatism. Happily, the Christian Right is not what it used to be, apart from the asinine derivative bobbings of Mr McCoskrie and his Family First cohorts and Colon Craig's Conservipated Party. And these days, that's about all.

Lilith __

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 17:18:28 +1200

Amazing how when Russell bans a troll, another one immediately pops up defending him. Sock puppet, anyone?

Emma Hart

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 17:09:42 +1200

I’ve always thought that free speech is probably the single most important right in our society and we are all damaged when it is restricted.

xkcd on what freedom of speech actually is.

Also, I think you're working from an assumption that if everyone is allowed to say whatever they…

Iain Thorpe

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 16:21:37 +1200

I've always assumed that virulent anti-abortion sentiment does not come from a happy place. Why do you think people act like that? Is some people's pain more important than others? The sub-issue is about moderation, fair play and freedom of speech. I've always thought that free speech is probably the…

Andrew C

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 15:55:43 +1200

If a women CHOOSES to be sexually active she can take RESPONSIBILITY for that, not the tax payer.

So the rich are fuckers, and the poor are wankers? Something to please all sides of the spectrum I guess...

Hilary Stace

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 10:23:14 +1200

I demand a public health system (and can we also have a welfare state please).

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 09:01:02 +1200

In my teens and early 20s, I didn’t think abortion was a moral issue. I was comfortable with the line being drawn at about 12 weeks, quite possibly later, and with the idea that any woman should be able to end any pregnancy up to then as easily as ordering…

tussock

Wed, 17 Jun 2015 01:10:07 +1200

What we really need is laws that force women to give up other organs to their children as well. Imagine if a child gets heart disease and it's mother refuses to donate hers in replacement? Merely because of a few health concerns or fears for the future, when really, it…

Joe Wylie

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 16:16:43 +1200

That's basically abortion on demand...
What with kiwi_guy fulminating against "demanding" feminists, surely it's high time that nastily loaded old phrase was put out of its misery. As someone put it way back in 1976, if abortion on demand rankles, how about abortion on polite request?

Lilith __

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 16:04:04 +1200

Well, the law (and society) might be treating that fetus as a human, a potential human (ie, greater than zero set of rights), or a non-human entity.

Human is the species. But any old bit of human tissue is not a person.
And if you start talking about "potential people",…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 15:29:45 +1200

There isn’t any good system of rules or morality that punishes people for what they might do. If Russell is not around to moderate then comments should be shut down for everyone, not just intransigent “pro-lifers ”.

Most of the people here can be trusted to either not say anything…

Emma Hart

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:56:46 +1200

If Russell is not around to moderate then comments should be shut down for everyone, not just intransigent “pro-lifers ”.

This discussion is not about moderation. It's about an issue which is sensitive, and extremely painful and personal to some people. This is a community where we value those voices…

Deborah

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:40:07 +1200

a patronising way Not at all! Or at least I didn't read your comment that way at all. Or something. Greatest respect for the way you approach conversations here...

advocate for incremental change
Yes. The weird thing is, in general there's fairly widespread support for abortion in NZ, and it…

Danielle

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:35:44 +1200

I'd like to think that as a long-term member of this community I would get more leeway than an abortion troll to comment in Russell's absence. C'mon.

Iain Thorpe

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 14:16:38 +1200

There isn't any good system of rules or morality that punishes people for what they might do. If Russell is not around to moderate then comments should be shut down for everyone, not just intransigent "pro-lifers ".

George Darroch

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 13:36:44 +1200

It’s my opinion that either you change these people’s perceptions, or you find the point that will get the great majority of current abortions legalised

Which might just be a patronising way of saying "be realistic" and "advocate for incremental change".

George Darroch

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 13:26:00 +1200

Yes, it’s a vexed moral issue, and there is no clear dividing line between human person / not human person. We’re fairly clear that a baby is a human person (Peter Singer et al not withstanding), and we’re fairly clear that a newly fertilised egg is not (various religious types…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 12:05:46 +1200

She also mentioned that some of the conservative and powerful men about town were the cause.

So it’s less about actual morals, and more about ‘bugger the rules, I make them!’. It doesn’t seem far removed from what drives paedophile priests to commit acts of hypocrisy.

Hilary Stace

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:14:34 +1200

My late ex mother-in-law was a bit of a party girl in 1930s Wellington. She said (although she was careful to stress this was not a first hand account) that everyone knew where to find a local abortionist. Unfortunately the personal risk was high. She also mentioned that some of…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 11:02:27 +1200

I think we can treat women as autonomous moral adults, and allow them to make that decision for themselves.

This!

Craig Young

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:57:26 +1200

The antis also regularly use junk 'science' to get their points across with the following methodological flaws:
-small sample sizes
-short sample durations
-inferential jumps that cannot be supported by the data
-establishing parallel anti-abortion professional organisations to mainstream counterparts.
-reheating and tweaking unrepresentative data sets from otherwise pro-choice research…

Craig Young

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:05:45 +1200

Yes, as long as they're pro-choice women. Remember Margaret Austin (Labour) and Judy Turner (United Future) from the eighties and nineties? And I agree, it was truly obscene that a predominantly male Parliament made the decision to exclude rape from the CSA Act.

At present, there's a theoretical split between…

Deborah

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 09:50:12 +1200

One ghastly aspect of the current CSA Act is that it doesn’t include a clause about rape as a qualifying ground.

Yes. That's because many men in the House thought that women would lie and say they had been raped in order to get an abortion. 87 seats in the…

Craig Young

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 09:46:07 +1200

Note the Christian Right's role in this. SPUC/Voice for Life forced the current quasi-criminal twilight zone into law, although it's a case of liberal interpretation versus theoretically conservative legislation. However, the Contraception, Sterilisation and Abortion Act 1977 does not contain any legislative definition of embryo or foetus, disclosed when one…

Deborah

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 09:38:52 +1200

At a certain point, the product of fertilised egg can be considered a human – somewhere between conception and birth. The law (rightly) does not try to define this. But in this absence the law essentially treats all medically procedures to induce the abortion of that fetus as criminal, and…

Craig Young

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 09:31:44 +1200

Takes two to tango, sport. Ever heard of condoms?

Kerri Perwick

Tue, 16 Jun 2015 08:51:15 +1200

There is a "tiny risk" of failure of contraception, but that's every time you have sex, over a fertile lifetime of around 30 years. So you're basically condemning women to make no mistakes and have no accidents with pills or condoms for 30+ years. Which is a huge ask.
Isn't…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 23:45:23 +1200

This ‘kiwi_guy’ has an undercurrent of MRA/Cultural Marxism/“uncovered meat” dogma about him. Not once did he make any mention of the other half of the equation – and I’ve mentioned it before – “young, dumb, and full of cum” or “boys will be boys”.

Emma Hart

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 22:27:30 +1200

Abortion is legal

No it is not. It should be, but it is not, it is a crime.

Jack Harrison

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 21:49:02 +1200

Abortion is legal , abortion is right. Abortion is not open for any moral discussion. Understand who we are as a lifeform or live a life of puzzled sad moral misery.

Russell Brown

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 21:37:54 +1200

Yeah that’s the key. With no guiding hand getting rid the most derailing comments it would quickly devolve. I don’t believe Russell would have pulled that trigger if he wasn’t about to step away from the keyboard, not so quickly anyway.

No, I wouldn't have. This is a very sensitive…

william blake

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 21:17:25 +1200

Ian it's politicians applying what is simple minded morality to very complex problems that upset me, especially when members of the same party make (or intend to make) morally contradicting law, which only common feature is in circumscribing women's freedom.

Nicola

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 20:27:14 +1200

If a woman can not afford to look after a child there are plenty of loving couples desperate to adopt. The mother could even stay involved. It can be made to happen.

I've heard that New Zealand adoption law is archaic and far less straightforward than we tend to assume.…

Nicola

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 20:25:44 +1200

The 'choice' to be sexually active and the 'responsibility' to be a parent for 18+ years if things don't go to plan. Just because someone's sowing wild oats, doesn't mean I have to be a farmer.

Anti-abortion campaigners often talk about the 'inconvenience' of nine months of pregnancy, not the…

B Jones

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 20:14:00 +1200

The news today had a reminder of a time in our history when unmarried pregnant women had no good options available to them.

Twenty foetal remains and two infants' skeletons – all kept by the museum – were found buried in Hastings abortionist Isabel "Annie" Aves' garden in 1936. Aves…

serenity22

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 18:36:32 +1200

As a mother of two adults, and someone who has been through the NZ health system to address pregnancies I couldn't continue with it at the time, I can speak from experience on this topic. Not only about how incredibly distressing and stressful the process is, made far worse by…

Nat Curnow

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:34:00 +1200

The stick that rattles my dags about this issue, as it does with rape and and abuse of women is the incessant braying of the male defense and admonishment of responsibility . Men are responsible for impregnating women. If we as a society genuinely respected women and there equal rights…

Morgan Nichol

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:30:52 +1200

with Russell absent no moderation was possible

Yeah that's the key. With no guiding hand getting rid the most derailing comments it would quickly devolve. I don't believe Russell would have pulled that trigger if he wasn't about to step away from the keyboard, not so quickly anyway.

Robyn Gallagher

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:14:32 +1200

Btw, the Domestic Purposes Benefit doesn't exist anymore. Unemployed sole parents either get the Sole Parent Support benefit if their youngest child is under 14, or the Jobseeker Support (aka the dole) if their younger child is 14 or over.

Neither benefits encourage the beneficiaries to sit on their arses…

Rob Stowell

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 17:09:41 +1200

sorry, but I’ve blocked you.

Thanks Russell. Wasn't going anywhere good. There's a good conversation happening and 'kiwi_guy' wasn't interested in being part of it.

Bart Janssen

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:38:20 +1200

Blocking is a bad call Russell.

No it isn't. There was a high risk of him saying something genuinely hurtful and with Russell absent no moderation was possible.

And as Russell said too much of this discussion is from OWGs like me ...

Danielle

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:37:09 +1200

You really think THAT guy could teach us all a thing or two, though? I was just saying on Twitter, abortion trolls are so *boring*. They repeat the same misogynist stuff every feminist online hears pretty much daily. Isn't it pretty insulting to the women of PAS to give that…

Iain Thorpe

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:31:21 +1200

Blocking is a bad call Russell. I agree with your views on the underlying issue entirely, but you can't exclude views you disagree with because he "might say something upsetting". You risk never learning anything if you only listen to views that make you feel nice. I thought Morgan's gentle…

Danielle

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:22:54 +1200

I know our troll is gone, but:

the "inconvenience" of 9 months pregnancy

My (very much wanted) full term pregnancies almost killed me. Twice. It's not all about maternal glow and stuffing your face – it's quite a large health risk, growing a foetus.

Iain Thorpe

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:22:29 +1200

So you "fucking hate" people who think morality should be easy, linear or logical? Can you see the problem here?

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:21:51 +1200

Phew! I had to go away and paint a shelf.

Russell Brown

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 16:01:38 +1200

She HAS got the right to decide – whether to hop in the sack with a guy or not, or use contraception aware that there is a very tiny risk it doesn’t work.

What's the guy in the sack doing?

Hey, look, no offence, but I have to go and…

kiwi_guy

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:58:28 +1200

Just as soon as people like you have removed any choice she has about bearing a child, right?

You mean the choice to terminate the life of a human being? I've already pointed out rape or serious endangerment to the mother's health. Otherwise what do you think you have that…

George Darroch

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:57:45 +1200

So at some point in a pregnancy the law decides the potential human (fetus) has more rights than the existing human. Sigh.

Well, the law (and society) might be treating that fetus as a human, a potential human (ie, greater than zero set of rights), or a non-human entity.

There's…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:57:23 +1200

My fingernail clippings are possibly human, depending how silly people want to get with the definitions. I’d rather stick with “sometime between conception and adulthood”,

At some point in the future it will be possible to develop a human being from stem cell tissue and likely cause differentiated tissue to…

kiwi_guy

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:51:06 +1200

The woman has the right to decide the fate of her body. The law should reflect that

She HAS got the right to decide – whether to hop in the sack with a guy or not, or use contraception aware that there is a very tiny risk it doesn't work.…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:47:24 +1200

Really if you are going to be a troll can you try and be original.

And in all honesty, this subject is just too important to have trolls dribble all over it.

kiwi_guy

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:44:17 +1200

Lets address that societal issue first before some kiwi guy gets to decide what a woman's allowed.

Abortion should not be used for population control, not surprising you think it should though, after all Communist China does it and your Feminist ideological roots are grounded in failed Marxist philosophy.

The…

Moz

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:43:23 +1200

Eggs and sperm and zygotes and embryos and fetuses are all human.

My fingernail clippings are possibly human, depending how silly people want to get with the definitions. I'd rather stick with "sometime between conception and adulthood", if we can. Probably narrowing it to "sometime between viability and birth", if…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:43:03 +1200

Russell Brown

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:40:14 +1200

If a women CHOOSES to be sexually active she can take RESPONSIBILITY for that, not the tax payer.

Just as soon as people like you have removed any choice she has about bearing a child, right?

Emma Hart

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:40:09 +1200

If a women CHOOSES to be sexually active she can take RESPONSIBILITY for that,

And if a MAN chooses to be sexually active...

Moz

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:39:55 +1200

If a women CHOOSES to be sexually active she can take RESPONSIBILITY for that, not the tax payer.

Exactly. And abortion is a useful part of taking responsibility. Not everything people do goes to plan, and the more we can help everyone recover from mistakes and more on, the better…

Lilith __

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:39:10 +1200

At a certain point, the product of fertilised egg can be considered a human – somewhere between conception and birth. The law (rightly) does not try to define this.

In fact "human" doesn't help us much. Eggs and sperm and zygotes and embryos and fetuses are all human. The point…

andin

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:29:54 +1200

feminists seem to demand exactly that
Sheez even our imaginary god can hear the sneer in your words from the far side of its imaginary universe

Alice Ronald

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:19:18 +1200

Adoption is an alternative to parenthood, not pregnancy.

kiwi_guy

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:16:51 +1200

So, women should be forced to have babies but we should punish those babies by starving them to death? How does that fit any morality? I suppose other than "women should be punished".

If a woman can not afford to look after a child there are plenty of loving couples…

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 15:07:44 +1200

I should hope it is made harder to have a baby on the DPB

Do you know anything about the DPB or are you just spouting your problem with solo mothers.
The DPB is a benefit that the father of the child, when identified, pays a considerable amount towards.The parents…

Morgan Nichol

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 14:53:53 +1200

Unfortunately feminists seem to demand exactly that.

Please tell me about more of your funny ideas.

Moz

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 14:40:09 +1200

It’s time someone reminded politicians that winning elections isn’t their job, governing is.

There have been a few anti-slavery petitions over the years, and some members bills recently. Unfortunately the pro-slavery activists have better SEO skills so it's hard to find much info. I think what we're seeing is as…

Moz

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 14:29:54 +1200

Abortions should be permissible only in cases of rape or serious threat to the woman's health.... I should hope it is made harder to have a baby on the DPB

So, women should be forced to have babies but we should punish those babies by starving them to death? How…

kiwi_guy

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:56:38 +1200

I should hope it is made harder to have a baby on the DPB, the State should not be used as a replacement for a father. Unfortunately feminists seem to demand exactly that.

william blake

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:49:26 +1200

http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/individuals/benefit-changes/dpb-sole-parents.html

Paula Bennett making it harder to have a baby on the DPB, while Chester Borrows is trying to make it harder to not have one. Who said morality was easy, linear or logical? I fucking hate these people.

kiwi_guy

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:44:09 +1200

Abortions should be permissible only in cases of rape or serious threat to the woman's health.

The claim about Hawaii is dodgy, as the article itself points out, there maybe a drop in surgical abortions but only because of the day after pill.

This is an issue about how we…

Ross Mason

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:39:48 +1200

Not much has changed? "Safe Marriage" – Ettie Rout.
The immorality of her whole business: The Womens Temperance Society Page 2.
This picture of Ettie Routs nurses is here. My Wonderfuls's great aunt, Dora Murch is pictured.
My Grandfather lost 56 days of pay in…

andin

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:32:36 +1200

They are uncomfortable topics because so much of the narrative is wrapped up in morality.
And here you get to a laziness/moral torpidity that has slunk its way into a lot of peoples thinking. If it makes them uncomfortable that seems to be the cue to resort "well it worked…

George Darroch

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:21:09 +1200

Meantime the number of unwanted pregnancies can be reduced with much better coverage of Long Acting Reversible Contraceptives, an effort to increase awareness, and full funding for all available options.

Edit: there’s an understandable tension between prioritising advocacy on this issue or on abortion – a law that clearly needs…

George Darroch

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:19:42 +1200

They have the resources to convene committees, get expert testimonies and make decisions that are based on evidence. We, as individuals, do not have that luxury when forming an opinion on an issue. They may not want to deal with this issue but dealing with it is in their job…

Public Address

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:19:42 +1200

Discussion from blog post.