Public Address | Cafe | Polity: A week on from the housing controversy https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=345501#post345501 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=345501#post345501 So now John Key agrees with the Labour finding that ethnic Chinese are driving up house prices in Auckland;

http://www.interest.co.nz/property/76953/pm-john-key-says-non-aucklanders-tell-him-they-would-love-more-chinese-buyers-says

And those of us outside Auckland want to share in the wealth, apparently.

To my mind, never has a PM been so unrepresentative of New Zealanders.

]]> Thu, 06 Aug 2015 17:34:18 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=345490#post345490 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=345490#post345490 most people who are not homeowners. ]]> Thu, 06 Aug 2015 14:23:00 +1200 Alfie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=345488#post345488 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=345488#post345488 John Key is putting a positive spin on wealthy foreign investors buying NZ homes.
I go around the rest of the country and people say to me 'Can we have a few of those Chinese buyers in Wellington and other parts of New Zealand because actually we want our house prices…

]]> Thu, 06 Aug 2015 14:18:42 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=345452#post345452 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=345452#post345452 Not having a crack at the Race Relations Conciliator might have been a good idea too.

Twyford seems determined to play this out as a hole-digging contest.

]]> Wed, 05 Aug 2015 17:47:59 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344667#post344667 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344667#post344667 The narrative from a year ago:

So who’s buying?

In many cases, investors. About 8 per cent of purchases are possibly being made by overseas cash buyers, according to data from property information and analysis company CoreLogic. But of the rest, almost half the property that changes hands – 45 per…

]]> Sat, 25 Jul 2015 16:06:04 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344631#post344631 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344631#post344631 I just stumbled on this from April:

Alexander conceded he had previously advocated that this country “mitigate the effect of this unrestricted foreign buying of our houses and apartments on prices and societal cohesion by adopting Australia’s legislation”.

But there were concerns that the Australian system was not working or…

]]> Fri, 24 Jul 2015 23:25:47 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344592#post344592 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344592#post344592 Fri, 24 Jul 2015 14:06:54 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344570#post344570 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344570#post344570 Basically, as I informally understand the reserve bank philosophy is “all lot of things could shock the NZ economy, but we are building in a margin of error to cover that”

Sorry for late response, been busy.

If that is indeed their philosophy, it's hard not to feel that they're…

]]> Fri, 24 Jul 2015 11:19:42 +1200 steve black https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344553#post344553 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344553#post344553 Eric Crampton is a "working statistician" and he says

Whether or not you believe the numbers that Labour highlighted last week — and I do not put much stock in them — there is growing international evidence of substantial foreign capital that would be more than happy to find a…

]]> Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:25:42 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344544#post344544 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344544#post344544 I read through that Katharine but I couldn’t find exactly what Tony Alexander means by “foreign buyer ban”. Do you have any idea what he’s suggesting?

The sense I got was no direct foreign investment/ownership in our residential housing stock (bar perhaps Australian citizens?). But not clear – and I…

]]> Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:38:23 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344528#post344528 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344528#post344528 More from Vancouver:

In 2002, Canada introduced the Proceeds of Crime and Terrorist Financing Act, which requires real estate agents and others to report suspicious activity to the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada (Fintrac). Under the regulations, any large cash transactions involving amounts of $10,000 or more,…

]]> Fri, 24 Jul 2015 02:55:39 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344527#post344527 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344527#post344527 I read through that Katharine but I couldn’t find exactly what Tony Alexander means by “foreign buyer ban”. Do you have any idea what he’s suggesting?

He implies some kind of equivalence:

My reply included the point that we deny Kiwi employers access to the world’s potential pool of cheap…

]]> Fri, 24 Jul 2015 01:13:54 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344521#post344521 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344521#post344521 Not sure whether posted elsewhere, but here is BNZ's Tony Alexander's 23 July newsletter on Why A Foreign Buyer Ban?

http://www.interest.co.nz/sites/default/files/embedded_images/Sporadic-15-July-23-2015.pdf

]]> Thu, 23 Jul 2015 23:49:36 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344453#post344453 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344453#post344453 There is another take though – as 'Bluey' is also slang for...
The trespass notice you get when being banned from a pub.
I know this because I was once banned from a "Prominent Auckland Pub" for, in his words... "Interfering in his business".
In my words... "offering advice to…

]]> Thu, 23 Jul 2015 14:21:51 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344445#post344445 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344445#post344445 Just curious – do you see “blue-rinsers” to be a derogatory term?

Yes, and its targets fully deserve it in the circumstances. ;)

]]> Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:51:28 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344439#post344439 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344439#post344439 Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:10:04 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344438#post344438 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344438#post344438 Was that a yes or a no?
While it does carry derogatory baggage,
I see it as a borderline ageist generic grouping in this context.

...all considerably muddied nowadays, especially as I see so many young people (mostly women admittedly) with blue hair!

There is another take though – as…

]]> Thu, 23 Jul 2015 13:09:35 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344431#post344431 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344431#post344431 Thu, 23 Jul 2015 12:51:25 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344426#post344426 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344426#post344426 cyan and handwringing?
do you see “blue-rinsers” to be a derogatory term?
Like National’s ’Bluegreen’ wing?
Ageism aside – I find this bunch (above) pretty offensive.
; – )

(and I am pretty much the same age as some of them!)

]]> Thu, 23 Jul 2015 12:28:48 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344402#post344402 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344402#post344402 when it’s the blue-rinsers

Just curious – do you see "blue-rinsers" to be a derogatory term?

]]> Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:39:21 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344387#post344387 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344387#post344387 2) Restrictions on land use.

You know the world's gone topsy-turvy when it's the blue-rinsers who are the most vocal about keeping the status quo on land use. Draw your own conclusion as to whether it's old-fashioned snobbery dressed up as 'heritage' and 'community character', financial self-interest in the housing…

]]> Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:24:14 +1200 Mike Steinberg https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344375#post344375 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344375#post344375 @ Rob Salmond,

Former Reserve Bank Economist Michael Reddell has pointed this out a number of times the main issues (which are amenable to policy)

1) Demand driven by the inward migration targets.

2) Restrictions on land use.

If they restricted the immigration target they would quickly reduce the heat…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 23:37:41 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344362#post344362 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344362#post344362 we had used different denominators and had placed some variables in different tenure categories for different reasons.

I had a problem with the "home ownership" seemingly conflated with "owner/occupier".
A picky point it may seem but if we assume all houses are owned and see the problem as a demand…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 17:23:08 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344345#post344345 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344345#post344345 I wish I knew how exactly they arrived at their number, because it is about 6% lower in 2006 ownership than the households by tenure data.

You're not alone.

I thought I had done a good job. The result showed a long term trend of declining home ownership that was…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 15:50:34 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344341#post344341 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344341#post344341 At the very least, I’d expect them to be attempting to predict the chances, to the limit of their abilities.

What they do is estimate the size of a nationwide shock if it happened, and force that banks to keep reserves to allow for that risk, so without knowing what…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 14:49:27 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344340#post344340 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344340#post344340 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 14:41:31 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344332#post344332 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344332#post344332 Not my implication at all – it’s a point about the emphasis you place on price, as if it were the only (or the principle) consideration in the production process that makes a good “competitive”. In this case, Kiwirail explain in your link that the supplier was chosen because;

My…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 13:45:02 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344330#post344330 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344330#post344330 Chris, what country is that graph for (and why does it stop almost a decade ago)?

David it’s from New Zealand, I don’t know why it stops then.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/graph/30207/rates-of-home-ownership

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 13:19:18 +1200 simon g https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344323#post344323 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344323#post344323 "That's not the issue!", episode 347, by yet another columnist.

So many people feel this need to tell everybody else what they should be talking about, rather than listen to what they are talking about. Which is kind of annoying if it's just the barbecue bore, but when it's a…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:40:44 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344321#post344321 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344321#post344321 Heather du Plessis-Allen seems to be giving the issue the benefit of the doubt. Draw your own conclusion. ]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:24:17 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344319#post344319 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344319#post344319 I could go on but I feel I am wasting my time here.

Not with me, you’re not! Agree these should all be considerations for government in relation to policy settings, if that is, they weren’t wedded to monetarism (orthodox economics) and its political expression: neoliberalism. Which is part of…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:03:37 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344317#post344317 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344317#post344317 watching and withholding. I can’t prove it, though – it’s a conspiracy theory.

I am with you here Ben, I really can't believe that National do not have data even if "The Government" does not collect it.
I believe it has something to do with hats and anyway, if National…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 11:55:11 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344314#post344314 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344314#post344314 Kiwirail says it turned to the overseas firm because New Zealand workshops were not competitve and could not complete the contract on time.
...because they have been run down over the years for ideological reasons..

But then, surely, there is something to be said for spending the money "Locally" ?…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 11:50:08 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344312#post344312 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344312#post344312 The New Zealand data

Just reply to myself to note that from the graph of the preceding page, that if nothing dramatic happens in the next four years there will be 1 in 5 fewer people (75ish to 60ish is 15ish which is 1/5th of the original) than a generation…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 11:44:43 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344302#post344302 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344302#post344302 But no, I don’t put (much) of my own money into research to do something about it.

Sorry, when I asked "how are you going to fight that?" I didn't mean you personally. By "you" I meant "one". But it feels like such a pompous form of address that I…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 11:13:10 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344300#post344300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344300#post344300 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 11:11:32 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344297#post344297 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344297#post344297 And let’s remember that thanks to the very same Rob Salmond it seems like the Government doesn’t always describe official advice accurately, nor follow it:

And then sometimes they ignore it altogether and do what they want to – but the why that they want to do stupid things (when…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 10:56:15 +1200 steve black https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344296#post344296 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344296#post344296 It’s quite scary to think that the most powerful people this country could have a policy of deliberate ignorance about such an important issue as where the money going into the largest asset class comes from. How are you going to fight that? Spend your own money and time on… ]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 10:54:28 +1200 steve black https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344294#post344294 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344294#post344294 Perhaps a better way of putting this: If it’s not the Reserve Bank’s official duty, then whose official duty is it to know what is happening with by far the biggest asset class in this country? Is it really no one at all? Are we really happy to just walk… ]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 10:44:36 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344293#post344293 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344293#post344293 What I proposed is simple in concept, but in no way easy to undertake.

Therein lies the rub, I think. When high quality information is difficult/costly to get, people make do with low quality. That's not something we have a choice about, really. The alternative is analysis paralysis in most…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 10:41:59 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344292#post344292 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344292#post344292 Not my implication at all – it's a point about the emphasis you place on price, as if it were the only (or the principle) consideration in the production process that makes a good "competitive". In this case, Kiwirail explain in your link that the supplier was chosen because;

__Kiwirail…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 10:37:54 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344290#post344290 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344290#post344290 @ David Hood

I don’t know the exact wording of their official mandate, but it seems to me that house prices and the possible collapse thereof are pretty fundamental aspects of the security of the banking system. At the very least, I’d expect them to be attempting to predict the…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 10:20:13 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344286#post344286 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344286#post344286 I mean, an obvious candidate to do this research would have been the Reserve Bank itself, this giant body tasked with understanding the drivers of house price inflation

Are they charged with that? I thought they were charged with the security of the banking system, and housing only affects that…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:53:44 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344285#post344285 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344285#post344285 Rates of Home Ownership

Chris, what country is that graph for (and why does it stop almost a decade ago)?

The New Zealand data, from http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/population/estimates_and_projections/DwellingHouseholdEstimates_HOTPJun15qtr.aspx looks like this

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:36:54 +1200 steve black https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344284#post344284 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344284#post344284 Could be done. Why has no one done it? Not just Labour, but anyone?

Thanks for your reply Ben. And your question is spot on as far as I’m concerned. The only observation I’d add is: Having worked for a couple of decades in private practice (versus my time in…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:29:19 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344282#post344282 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344282#post344282 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 03:24:20 +1200 Andre https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344281#post344281 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344281#post344281 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 02:40:43 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344279#post344279 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344279#post344279 http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site ]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 01:27:28 +1200 Andre https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344278#post344278 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344278#post344278 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 01:22:55 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344277#post344277 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344277#post344277 this might not be a bubble, it might be a boom.

When you make the top ten we’ll bring the balloons

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/property/international/10675352/The-worlds-10-most-expensive-cities-to-buy-property.html?frame=2763563

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 01:13:35 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344275#post344275 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344275#post344275 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:59:11 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344273#post344273 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344273#post344273 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:51:12 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344269#post344269 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344269#post344269 That’s novel. Who else has been bidding prices eternally higher?

Well, it is possible that people who are not speculating any more than anyone else who buys a property are buying them. As in, of course they want it to go up, but that's not the main reason they're buying…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:18:29 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344268#post344268 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344268#post344268 Great research paper – thanks for the link, Steve.

Ben, this answers some of your questions on whether or not Auckland is a bubble – conclusion: it is. Discussion toward the end on whether it will correct – only conclusion is that such a correction is unlikely to come from…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:14:57 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344267#post344267 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344267#post344267 Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:10:03 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344266#post344266 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344266#post344266 I’d pick a random sample of names from the list and start contacting people and explain the research being undertaken.

This list was obtained by a "leaker". So you start contacting people on it who dealt through Barfoot and Thompson. I can see a number of problems arising from that…

]]> Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:06:11 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344265#post344265 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344265#post344265 Chinese company CNR Corporation has won a $29 million contract from KiwiRrail to build 300 new rail wagons.

Kiwirail says it turned to the overseas firm because New Zealand workshops were not competitve and could not complete the contract on time.

Yep, the ones with the asbestos problem;

http://www.kiwirail.co.nz/news/299/78/Locomotive-Testing-Results-Received/d,news.html

http://www.mbie.govt.nz/pdf-library/latest-news/summary-kiwirail-investigation.PDF

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 23:48:43 +1200 steve black https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344264#post344264 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344264#post344264 So first an overview which mentions the research and gives some context

jawboning house market

and the research paper (warning: mathematics + data rich)

the research paper

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 23:16:32 +1200 steve black https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344263#post344263 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344263#post344263 That’s novel. Who else has been bidding prices eternally higher?

Just to answer your question (and not defend the original comment nor it’s context) the others bidding up prices would be:

people buying a dwelling to live in
people buying a dwelling to give their kids somewhere to live
people…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 23:05:04 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344262#post344262 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344262#post344262 I don't think that one can blame the housing bubble on speculators

That's novel. Who else has been bidding prices eternally higher?

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:57:09 +1200 steve black https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344261#post344261 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344261#post344261 ...shed light on where/how this could have been done instead without getting bogged down in all the moral issues that surround this research.

Say you are interested in looking at what proportion of house purchasers are non resident.

If somebody came to me with a list of purchasers of houses…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 22:54:42 +1200 Michael Roberts https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344253#post344253 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344253#post344253 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 21:28:01 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344251#post344251 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344251#post344251 Rates of Home Ownership

There is nothing revolutionary about this phenomena. Hopefully a name like John Holland sounds European enough to slip in under the radar. While Labour are plying their wares to old school New Zealand xenophobia, prodding people to zealandly ask “how can we restrict this?” the National…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 21:09:54 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344248#post344248 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344248#post344248 For those who have trouble grasping what 60 trillion means, here is a graph of typical NZ monthly house sales (about 5 billion at the moment, on left) compared to 60 trillion (on right)

I’d be weary of going overboard with the scaremongering, compare it to NZ$650bn by all means.…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 20:19:19 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344247#post344247 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344247#post344247 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 20:11:42 +1200 andin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344242#post344242 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344242#post344242 New Zealanders need to be made aware of a a broader dream called ‘Financial Security’ that isn’t necessarily shackled to a dream called ‘Home Ownership’

Ownership is a human thing much to our detriment. Financial security? whats that?
Some people are just never satisfied and their insecurities will drive them.Anyway…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 19:25:41 +1200 James Caygill https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344225#post344225 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344225#post344225 Other commentators, however, have demeaned themselves with cartoonish hyperbole. Phil Quin resigned his role as Labour’s resident fly-in-its-own-ointment while comparing the data release to the Rwandan genocide. That’s obviously absurd. Anyone repeating his claim showed the same lack of perspective.

You better believe I resent being categorised this way Rob.…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 16:11:01 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344211#post344211 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344211#post344211 Which is a long time in internet disagreement years.

But which is a very short time in getting to understanding the crux of the matter years!

I've been concerned about what is driving this housing madness since about 2002.

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 13:05:02 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344210#post344210 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344210#post344210 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 12:58:04 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344208#post344208 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344208#post344208 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 12:31:37 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344202#post344202 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344202#post344202 David, this data/analysis will be of interest to you;

http://www.interest.co.nz/property/76614/housing-market-steaming-ahead-faster-lvr-restrictions-were-introduced

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 11:26:14 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344200#post344200 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344200#post344200 if there were somewhere the debate could continue in which that angle is strictly avoided from the start as a premise for discussion.

I'd personally be really interested if PAS could approach David Hood to do a short piece presenting the information/data analysis he has done in considering offshore capital…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 11:07:33 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344199#post344199 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344199#post344199 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 10:55:53 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344195#post344195 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344195#post344195 I have reflected overnight about the various reactions to my SST opinion piece, especially from those I named in that article.

First, and less important, Phil Quin protests that he never made any comparisons with the Rwandan genocide. I disagree with him, and I’m perfectly happy to point people to…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:45:08 +1200 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344194#post344194 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344194#post344194 I have a kiwisaver account. It has some good cash in it. I have growing equity in a Term Deposit, too. I may elect to use these to buy a house – if I can afford it. I may not. If I can afford to buy a house, that may… ]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:20:09 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344193#post344193 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344193#post344193 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:01:29 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344192#post344192 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344192#post344192 /Russel Brown.

there is an issue of historic proportions looming with respect to Chinese capital outflows

Really? Is that … extrapolation? Or just … random ass-pulls.

I’m not in the mood for your rudeness, particularly given that you don’t seem to have even tried to read up on it. But…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:48:18 +1200 Jeff Weir https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344191#post344191 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344191#post344191

Bernard Hickey goes mixed-metaphor-happy on the controversy.

Treasury suggested it could be collected by Auckland Council, which could retain some tax to invest in infrastructure for new housing. That would at least stun two birds with one stone.

Hopefully not Kereru...

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:39:52 +1200 Jeff Weir https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344190#post344190 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344190#post344190 Its not and never should be in the “dream” category of human activity. It is a necessity. Im pretty sure (I’m not a qualified naturalist) all land based mammals, yes we are just animals, need warmth and shelter. In the parlance of today, a home. This necessity has taken on… ]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:34:39 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344187#post344187 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344187#post344187 Bernard Hickey goes mixed-metaphor-happy on the controversy. ]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:51:07 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344186#post344186 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344186#post344186 Well, if you don’t consider:
– reinforcement of inequality by enriching those who got in early (or get out early) at the expense of the rest of the population
– enrichment of those with the good sense to inherit wealth at the expense of wage earners
– damage to the…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:41:49 +1200 Andre https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344185#post344185 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344185#post344185 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:13:33 +1200 Andre https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344184#post344184 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344184#post344184 Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:54:24 +1200 tussock https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344183#post344183 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344183#post344183 /Russel Brown.

there is an issue of historic proportions looming with respect to Chinese capital outflows
Really? Is that ... extrapolation? Or just ... random ass-pulls.

Because I recall there being an issue of Belgian dentists, or Japanese widows, or Dutch dairy farmers, or bankers from Sydney, or ... let's…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:40:03 +1200 tussock https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344182#post344182 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344182#post344182 /Rob Salmond.

For Labour, the distinction was always about speculation from *offshore* Chinese
He only ever pitted *offshore* Chinese
Our discussion last week focused on Chinese

No, Labour never used "Chinese" of mean "foreign."
1: You forgot "offshore" sometimes, in your reactionary stuff there.
2: But you did use it…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:36:02 +1200 Sue https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344180#post344180 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344180#post344180 I want to be clear on this: Nobody should read anything in our data analysis as being critical of Kiwis who happen to have Chinese ethnicity

Well that's happened
HOW YOU GOING TO FIX IT?
How are Labour going to fix it
How are you going to fix the demonisation…

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:22:28 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344175#post344175 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344175#post344175 Breaking news: Chinese agent says clients local

Mairangi Bay? We live nearby, will (if everything goes to plan) will be sold up and moved back to Wellington(-ish) by Christmas and nobody will be getting their papers checked at the open home.

]]> Tue, 21 Jul 2015 00:14:27 +1200 TracyMac https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344170#post344170 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344170#post344170 Breaking news: Chinese agent says clients local

What was someone saying above about not having enough information on the actual data source?

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 22:43:08 +1200 TracyMac https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344169#post344169 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344169#post344169 You know, the "man of the people" schtick is getting really really tired.

I don't own a house and I won't, probably, ever. My mother doesn't own a house. None of my siblings except my tradie brother and his working wife own a house. Although, *gasp*, I lived in Grey…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 22:41:27 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344156#post344156 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344156#post344156 I’m a non-Chinese New Zealand citizen living outside of New Zealand. If I own property in New Zealand am I “foreign money”?

If you converted an overseas currency to make that purchase, yes. More so if you leveraged that purchase (borrowed) in an overseas jurisdiction.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 21:12:15 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344154#post344154 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344154#post344154 I have an IRD number and bank account of my own. Does that mean I’m “hard-working Kiwi money” not “foreign money”?

That's actually one of the problems with the government's chosen approach. As John Key has acknowledged, it will capture New Zealand citizens with foreign tax status.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 20:59:54 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344153#post344153 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344153#post344153 What if I have a Chinese-sounding name? Did I just screw up the stats somehow?

One person cannot screw up aggregate statistics, pretty much by definition.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 20:55:19 +1200 David Hood https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344151#post344151 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344151#post344151 We’re not currently experiencing a nationwide jump like 02-03, are we?

I don't have figures on wages handy, but if you take total nationwide household disposable income from the reserve bank, and divide by the stats nz numbers of households, average household income peaked in Quarter 2 2013. So no.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 20:53:49 +1200 andin https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344145#post344145 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344145#post344145 Labour cares about this because the Kiwi dream of home ownership
Sloganeering.
Its not and never should be in the "dream" category of human activity. It is a necessity. Im pretty sure (I'm not a qualified naturalist) all land based mammals, yes we are just animals, need warmth and shelter.…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 20:08:48 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344143#post344143 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344143#post344143 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:46:37 +1200 SHG https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344139#post344139 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344139#post344139 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:28:23 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344136#post344136 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344136#post344136 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:20:40 +1200 SHG https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344135#post344135 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344135#post344135 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:19:39 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344133#post344133 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344133#post344133 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:17:36 +1200 SHG https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344132#post344132 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344132#post344132 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:15:44 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344131#post344131 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344131#post344131 Is there any recent data about how true it still is?

I wonder whether any nationwide issue wouldn’t be centered around income. We’re not currently experiencing a nationwide jump like 02-03, are we? Time will tell.

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/statistics/key_graphs/house_prices_values/

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:11:46 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344128#post344128 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344128#post344128 This is a complex issue, but an important one

Agreed. That's why some of us are annoyed at how poorly it has been handled.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 19:01:00 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344126#post344126 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344126#post344126 anyone seeming to try and corral it as a 'racism' issue

Nice try. Most commenters I've seen in the last week have been quite clear there is a housing market issue, and then there is the way it has been presented by Labour.

The only 'corralling' I've seen is a…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:59:28 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344125#post344125 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344125#post344125 The Kiwi dream of owning a home

Is there any recent data about how true it still is? Media seem to love the idea, but then they get paid for real estate adverts.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:54:01 +1200 tony j ricketts https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344119#post344119 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344119#post344119 My questions for Rob are: Isn't property speculation the issue, rather than where someone comes from? Is property speculation OK if done by New Zealand residents?

If it IS property speculation that's happening. As I understand it, people in China with significant cash have serious constraints on what they can…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:37:28 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344118#post344118 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344118#post344118 The Kiwi dream of owning a home, bloody well is not slipping away.

Careful there Steven, we wouldn’t want to upend the narrative as stated in the otherwise balanced Liam Dann piece that Russell linked to:

"Auckland house prices have been identified as an issue of social concern for the…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 18:12:33 +1200 Steve Curtis https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344113#post344113 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344113#post344113 If foreign speculators can’t be barred from buying up houses,

Thats incorrect, as David Parker who was in the cabinet at the time has raised.
Its spread by people in national who arent even sure which land in Auckland is owned by the government or been promised to others.
You…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 17:51:37 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344099#post344099 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344099#post344099 Why do you want to tax foreigners in a discriminatory fashion?

There are measures that could be taken (up to and including a 100% stamp duty on the marginal value of sales exceeding a certain percentage of GV) that would stop property inflation and hence remove the incentive to speculate.…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:40:49 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344098#post344098 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344098#post344098 I’m pretty much down with Liam Dann’s column today.

TLDR: there is an issue of historic proportions looming with respect to Chinese capital outflows, but don’t make it about people or their ethnicity.

If foreign speculators can't be barred from buying up houses, do FTAs still allow them to be…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:34:53 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344096#post344096 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344096#post344096 Forelock's lament...
...outraged at at the drop of hat.
There's trouble up at Milliner's, Guv!
cap in hand of course...

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 16:19:33 +1200 Tom Semmens https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344089#post344089 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344089#post344089 Be cool if this much effort went into pressuring the government into actually doing something on the runaway Auckland housing market.

Dude, this site is downtown Peoples Republic of Grey Lynn. They've all got their houses, thank you very much. Plenty of time to get outraged at the drop of…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 15:37:29 +1200 Mark H https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344088#post344088 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344088#post344088 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 15:12:37 +1200 llew40 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344086#post344086 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344086#post344086 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 15:03:10 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344085#post344085 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344085#post344085 As we’re still debating what was said and meant, it’s useful to quote Phil Twyford’s original tweet (which he and Rob stand by):

https://twitter.com/PhilTwyford/status/619616896460062720

"Chinese NZers 9% Akl popn. People of Chinese descent bought 39.5% of houses sold by major Akl real estate firm. This is foreign money."

Chinese descent…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 15:02:40 +1200 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344084#post344084 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344084#post344084 Ultra Share Hosiery?
...and the value of hosing in NZ
and the “magic money”...
Hosing NZ ?
Why, that'll be that Sock Market
one hears so much about...
:- )

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:52:40 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344081#post344081 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344081#post344081 Deja vu, anyone?

It’s just one long slow frustrating continuum for me.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:41:36 +1200 Dean Wallis https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344077#post344077 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344077#post344077 someone has made an effort to analyse the underlying issues behind Auckland's property trends". Then the Harold… ]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:35:01 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344074#post344074 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344074#post344074 Thanks, Deborah.

Deja vu, anyone?

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:26:15 +1200 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344073#post344073 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344073#post344073 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:22:14 +1200 Deborah https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344070#post344070 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344070#post344070 While I was searching for links to answer Rosemary's information request above, I came across this from 2013.

Cracker: Johnny Foreigner and the Auckland Property Market

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 14:03:04 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344068#post344068 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344068#post344068 I’m pretty much down with Liam Dann’s column today.

TLDR: there is an issue of historic proportions looming with respect to Chinese capital outflows, but don’t make it about people or their ethnicity.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:59:11 +1200 Deborah https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344067#post344067 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344067#post344067 There's some worries about the Korean FTA and non-residents purchasing housing in NZ.

NZ hands tied on foreign home buyers under Korea FTA "bungle"

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:59:05 +1200 Deborah https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344065#post344065 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344065#post344065 Regarding whether the FTA with China might preclude restrictions on people from mainland China buying houses here if they are not NZ residents:

From politik.co.nz (Richard Harman)

CONTROLS ON LAND SALES TO FOREIGNERS

Another big issue for Labour which has emerged into the public glare this week is the possibility…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:57:14 +1200 simon g https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344064#post344064 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344064#post344064 As we're still debating what was said and meant, it's useful to quote Phil Twyford's original tweet (which he and Rob stand by):

https://twitter.com/PhilTwyford/status/619616896460062720

Chinese NZers 9% Akl popn. People of Chinese descent bought 39.5% of houses sold by major Akl real estate firm. This is foreign money.

Chinese descent…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:54:17 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344063#post344063 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344063#post344063 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:51:36 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344061#post344061 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344061#post344061 Is property speculation OK if done by New Zealand residents?

Yes, it is okay!

Well, if you don't consider:
– reinforcement of inequality by enriching those who got in early (or get out early) at the expense of the rest of the population
– enrichment of those with the good…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:48:32 +1200 Rosemary McDonald https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344059#post344059 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344059#post344059 on Stuff today.....http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/70200841/Empty-homes-during-a-housing-crisis-are-a-riddle...

with one person commenting....( Sam Buchanan)

"One reason we can't regulate foreign investors is because we signed trade agreements promising not to. The China FTA, for example, promises that China-based investors will be treated "equally or better than" local investors.

That was an agreement initiated and negotiated…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:33:36 +1200 James Littlewood* https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344058#post344058 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344058#post344058 The sad thing for me is that up until now Phil's been kind of awesome in the way he's fronted to the media on housing.

This protracted debate is kind of like taking the ball out of the net after an own-goal, and repeatedly kicking it back in, watching the…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:32:20 +1200 Steve Curtis https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344057#post344057 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344057#post344057 f someone has a quote of Twyford pitting all Chinese house buyers, resident and offshore alike, against hard-working NZers, let’s see it
he refers to offshore chinese investors or foreign buyers or combinations of those words about 10 times

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:18:24 +1200 Jeff Weir https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344055#post344055 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344055#post344055 Let them buy bonds!!! It’s still foreign ownership, granted, but the lesser of economic sovereignty loss evils, I suspect.

The purist in me wants to disagree, and say let overseas non-residents own our unproductive housing stock, provided we invest just as heavily in our productive business stock. The rent they…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:04:20 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344054#post344054 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344054#post344054 More support for team Phil (lol);

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11483885

Will he get the sack too, I wonder?

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 13:02:14 +1200 chris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344051#post344051 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344051#post344051 Labour cares about this because the Kiwi dream of home ownership is rapidly slipping away from young New Zealanders of all ethnicities.

Seems to me like Labour only cares about Aucklanders and business owners. It is neglect of the regions that has caused this bubble, not offshore buyers. Drive down…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:50:13 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344049#post344049 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344049#post344049 So, you don’t win the argument first time so you stop making it?

No. You made a bad argument the first time. So you change your mind, remove it as an objection, go back to the drawing board and get it better next time.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:39:50 +1200 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344048#post344048 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344048#post344048 That the local tax regime does provide non-owner occupiers (some of which might be speculators) certain incentives/deductions not available to owner-occupiers was/is a problem, and that capital gains were not taxed was/is a problem. But we as a society can address these imbalances internally through our political system.

Or not...…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:38:13 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344047#post344047 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344047#post344047 Er, I could be wrong, of course, but wasn’t David Cunliffe as the then the leader of the Labour Party the one on stage at that debate?

Oh, sorry!!! Goes to show how much I pay attention to the person, as opposed to the policies!!!!!

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:36:12 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344046#post344046 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344046#post344046 God forbid we kiwis should admit defeat, leave the foreigners to their bubble on our soil – and invest in something else.

At the moment in Auckland that is indeed what every kiwi should do – invest in something else!

But, no, we should not "admit defeat" and continue to…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:34:30 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344045#post344045 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344045#post344045 Fact: the public voted and said no.

Sure, Katherine. So, you don't win the argument first time so you stop making it? If that was always the case New Zealand would be a very different place. For starters, you wouldn't be able to vote for anyone because the franchise would…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:28:00 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344043#post344043 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344043#post344043 I’m not trying to paint Labour into a corner – I’d love to see Rob say that they are still thinking about options for a CGT or other ways of dealing with property speculation that deal with the issue comprehensively rather than just focusing on overseas-based speculators.

Once again, it…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:19:52 +1200 Keir Leslie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344039#post344039 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344039#post344039 Presentation of the CGT policy by Phil Goff (Christchurch Town Hall) was likely a major factor in swinging the swing voters away from Labour in the election last year.

Er, I could be wrong, of course, but wasn't David Cunliffe as the then the leader of the Labour Party the…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:08:32 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344036#post344036 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344036#post344036 I’d like to see some evidence that the CGT was an important factor in the election.

I'm sure the party has that evidence based on polling.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 12:02:17 +1200 Ewan Morris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344035#post344035 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344035#post344035 Fact: the public voted and said no.

Those who represent Andrew Little’s rejection of that CGT policy as a “corner” with no ability to exit – ever – with any type of policy regarding taxation on capital gains, are the ones now stifling the party from its potential further consideration…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:57:49 +1200 TracyMac https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344034#post344034 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344034#post344034 Offshore property speculation causes a net loss to the NZ economy, for no productivity gain.

Nice exercise in goal-post moving. Are we worried about NZers getting fair access to housing, or are we worried about "productivity gains" to NZ's economy? They are far from synonymous.

And of course this "data"…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:57:04 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344033#post344033 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344033#post344033 They’ve rather cornered themselves by ruling out a CGT.

That's about as useful as saying Key has cornered himself by ruling out means testing of super. This (largely) media preoccupation of "cornering" politicians by suggesting "back downs", "flip flops", "broken promises" etc. are always some sign of weakness – actually…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:50:24 +1200 Tze Ming Mok https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344031#post344031 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344031#post344031 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:35:22 +1200 Jeff Weir https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344030#post344030 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344030#post344030 Foreign direct investment (the key word being direct) in our residential housing stock comes in under completely different country-of-origin conditions – hence not a level playing field – unfair competition – locally earned/sourced money cannot compete.

God forbid we kiwis should admit defeat, leave the foreigners to their bubble on…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:33:56 +1200 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344029#post344029 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344029#post344029 Onshore property speculation has the same lack of productivity gain, but the gains accrue within the NZ economy. So onshore speculation is better for the NZ economy than offshore speculation

You can also add the fact that onshore speculators have the equivalent power of an upper house.

Sadly, when economic…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:28:27 +1200 Jeff Weir https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344028#post344028 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344028#post344028 Our discussion last week focused on Chinese offshore buyers because (1) the *data* indicated this group was a major outlier

But how do you know if it was only a major outlier because you were unable to slice more accurately, and so quite possibly used an incredibly poor proxy? What…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:21:13 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344027#post344027 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344027#post344027 If they plan to keep living in Auckland they don't have much choice but to take the market price for the house they're selling. I don't think "greedy white homeowners" is a very useful approach.

Thank you, Russell – it really isn't. My partner is retiring at the end of…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:18:02 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344025#post344025 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344025#post344025 Katherine, you say any imbalances involved in domestic speculation can be addressed internally through our political system. I’m asking Rob what the Labour Party plans to do to address these imbalances. He appears to be telling me they will be doing nothing because they are only concerned about offshore speculation.… ]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:00:40 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344024#post344024 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344024#post344024 What about the ones who didn’t decry ‘Labour MPs in 2014 for being too PC, and too consumed with identity politcs’? I’d say there are more of them among last weeks critics than the unnamed hypocrites you point towards.

Fair point they're in a different position. Quin and friends went…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 11:00:02 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344023#post344023 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344023#post344023 No, Labour never used “Chinese” of mean “foreign.” Yes, we did consult some people who are ethnically Chinese on this issue. They understood our position, and were supportive.

I'm somewhat surprised you didn't have any of those people able to speak to the media.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:59:41 +1200 Ewan Morris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344022#post344022 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344022#post344022 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:59:13 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344021#post344021 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344021#post344021 I don’t think Phil Twyford ever pitted *all* Chinese buyers against *non-Chinese* hard-working Kiwis.

Please do go back and listen to his interview again. I understand you do not want to believe that’s what he said, but it is. Plenty had no trouble hearing him.

Twyford has said some dumb…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:57:07 +1200 Alex Coleman https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344020#post344020 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344020#post344020 "In some of the reaction, self-appointed experts decided Labour had lost all its principles entirely, and instantly transformed itself into a pack of nihilist, racist, poll-driven Machiavellis. Those same activists decried those same Labour MPs in 2014 for being too PC, and too consumed with identity politcs"


What about the…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:54:02 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344019#post344019 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344019#post344019 Here's a link to a transcript of Twyford's interview on The Nation last week:

http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/thenation/transcript-labour-housing-spokesman-phil-twyford-2015071112#axzz3gILkhcCh

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:49:23 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344018#post344018 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344018#post344018 Please do go back and listen to his interview again. I understand you do not want to believe that’s what he said, but it is. Plenty had no trouble hearing him.

So let's see a quote...

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:43:45 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344017#post344017 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344017#post344017 You used ethnicity as a proxy for nationality. People said your analysis was a sound way of determining ethnicity, but if ethnicity is not the problem, but nationality, why do that?

First, we never used ethnicity as a proxy for nationality. Never.

Second, the reason do to ethnicity-based analysis was…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:42:55 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344016#post344016 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344016#post344016 I don't think Phil Twyford ever pitted *all* Chinese buyers against *non-Chinese* hard-working Kiwis.

Please do go back and listen to his interview again. I understand you do not want to believe that's what he said, but it is. Plenty had no trouble hearing him.

The decision about how to…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:36:15 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344015#post344015 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344015#post344015 But that is not what Twyford said at all, is it? His words were very clear, hence the immediate anger they aroused.

If someone has a quote of Twyford pitting all Chinese house buyers, resident and offshore alike, against hard-working NZers, let's see it.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:35:52 +1200 Katharine Moody https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344014#post344014 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344014#post344014 Is property speculation OK if done by New Zealand residents?

Yes, it is okay!

Because the country-of-origin of the capital and borrowings is local – same risk profile on residential lending, same tax regime, same currency value, same interest rate paid on borrowings as that of every other local New…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:35:32 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344012#post344012 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344012#post344012 So who to blame:

(1) the national govt for not doing anything about it right now
(2) the labour govt for the terms in the FTA that allowed this to happen
(3) the greedy NZ homeowners —many many of them white, holding out for a good price.

I'll take door…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:31:03 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344011#post344011 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344011#post344011 For Labour, the distinction was always about speculation from *offshore* Chinese investors vs hard-working Kiwis of *all* ethnicities.

But that is not what Twyford said at all, is it? His words were very clear, hence the immediate anger they aroused. Own it.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:30:52 +1200 Emma Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344010#post344010 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344010#post344010 Certainly I acknowledge that some heard a different message than we were sending.

You used ethnicity as a proxy for nationality. People said your analysis was a sound way of determining ethnicity, but if ethnicity is not the problem, but nationality, why do that?

I simply cannot believe people actually…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:30:07 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344009#post344009 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344009#post344009 3) the greedy NZ homeowners —many many of them white, holding out for a good price.

If they plan to keep living in Auckland they don't have much choice but to take the market price for the house they're selling. I don't think "greedy white homeowners" is a very useful…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:28:46 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344008#post344008 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344008#post344008 You know what you call “the liberal outrage machine”? I call them citizens and electors who are allowed to get as uppity as they damn well please. If they’re not able or willing to treat all this as some rhetorical game or stats-wanking thought experiment? Deal with it.

Yes, Craig,…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:28:17 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344007#post344007 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344007#post344007 So you’re not worried about speculation from *offshore* investors of *all* ethnicities? You’re only worried about the Chinese ones?

No, Labour is concerned about offshore speculators, no matter where they come from or their ethnicity. That's why our policy is to restrict foreign ownership of residential property for all offshore…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:25:13 +1200 Kalka River https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344006#post344006 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344006#post344006 For Labour, the distinction was always about speculation from *offshore* Chinese investors vs hard-working Kiwis of *all* ethnicities.

Good point---note the juxtaposition ---the cunning inscrutable oriental against the hard working white kiwi

come on Raymond- --that is simply riffing on a stereotype and one that pops up in a lot…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:22:39 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344005#post344005 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344005#post344005 My questions for Rob are: Isn’t property speculation the issue, rather than where someone comes from? Is property speculation OK if done by New Zealand residents? And most importantly: what actual policies does Labour have to address property speculation, particularly now that it has backed away from a capital gains… ]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:21:48 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344004#post344004 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344004#post344004 Labour should have supplemented the Chinese names analysis that indicated general overseas investment eg the REINZ figures on NZ mortgages .

Or even note gone for that big splash at all. As David Hood has been demonstrating in discussions on other threads, there is quite a bit of evidence at…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:21:30 +1200 Jeff Weir https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344003#post344003 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344003#post344003 For Labour, the distinction was always about speculation from *offshore* Chinese investors vs hard-working Kiwis of *all* ethnicities.

So you're not worried about speculation from *offshore* investors of *all* ethnicities? You're only worried about the Chinese ones?

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:20:01 +1200 Kalka River https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344002#post344002 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344002#post344002 I can't be any clearer in my repudiation of any blaming of NZers who happen to have Chinese ethnicity. That group is not at fault, at all.

Come on dude, wise up.

What group is at fault?

Well there are only two groups that are really at fault, the main…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:19:23 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344001#post344001 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344001#post344001 liberal outrage machine

To paraphrase Helen Clark: Rob, when you’re in a hole, stop digging like you’re auditioning for Fox News or the Daily Mail.

Seriously.

Just stop.

Please.

You know what you call "the liberal outrage machine"? I call them citizens and electors who are allowed to get as…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:16:45 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344000#post344000 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=344000#post344000 Labour cares about this because the Kiwi dream of home ownership is rapidly slipping away from young New Zealanders of all ethnicities.

And how hard would it have been to make that the message, rather than Twyford explicitly and repeatedly pitting ‘Chinese’ against ‘hard-working NZers’ as if the groups couldn’t…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:15:19 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343998#post343998 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343998#post343998 Recently, a lot of people were marking the 29th anniversary of the passage of the Homosexual Law Reform Act. Labour is, and should be, very proud of it’s part in that. But does that mean LGBT and allies are never allowed to be critical of Labour ever again? Nope, Rob,… ]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:11:42 +1200 Rob Salmond https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343997#post343997 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343997#post343997 @Russell: Certainly I acknowledge that some heard a different message than we were sending.

For Labour, the distinction was always about speculation from *offshore* Chinese investors vs hard-working Kiwis of *all* ethnicities. How much of the blame for that disconnect in message-sent vs message-received lies with Labour, and how much…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:09:06 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343996#post343996 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343996#post343996 On top of this Labour should have apologised to the resident Chinese community when it became clear that many are upset.

Not having a crack at the Race Relations Conciliator might have been a good idea too.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 10:06:43 +1200 KathrynB https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343995#post343995 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343995#post343995 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:58:53 +1200 Ewan Morris https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343994#post343994 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343994#post343994 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:56:39 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343993#post343993 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343993#post343993 OTOH, Labour has achieved its goal of getting the issue talked about. Its just had to take quite a few punches to the face in doing so.

As Keith and Tse-Ming and others keep pointing out it’s who ends up being used as human shields and written off as collateral…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:54:30 +1200 llew40 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343989#post343989 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343989#post343989 Nobody should read anything in our data analysis as being critical of Kiwis who happen to have Chinese ethnicity

I'd buy this Rob if it wasnt for the fact that so many NZers of Chinese descent quite clearly read it as a criticism, based entirely on the way Labour chose…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:49:38 +1200 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343988#post343988 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343988#post343988 Labour cares about this because the Kiwi dream of home ownership is rapidly slipping away from young New Zealanders of all ethnicities.

And how hard would it have been to make that the message, rather than Twyford explicitly and repeatedly pitting 'Chinese' against 'hard-working NZers' as if the groups couldn't…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:47:58 +1200 Bart Janssen https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343987#post343987 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343987#post343987 You harmed people with this.

Your response is that the ends justify the means.

And you didn't mean to harm them so it's OK.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:47:24 +1200 Craig Ranapia https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343985#post343985 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343985#post343985 but the problem is that ethnic Chinese New Zealanders heard something very different to what you say you were saying..

A lot of other people did too. Rob throwing around his own brand of “cartoonish hyperbole” to caricature dissent isn’t adding anything much to the “sensible discussion” he keeps saying…

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:44:43 +1200 Russell Brown https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343984#post343984 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343984#post343984 and that that capital is currently flowing principally out of mainland China (China only overtook the US last year as Australia's biggest source… ]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:36:52 +1200 Rich of Observationz https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343983#post343983 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343983#post343983 Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:23:42 +1200 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343982#post343982 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/speaker-a-week-on-from-the-housing-controversy/?p=343982#post343982 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Mon, 20 Jul 2015 09:23:42 +1200