No one seemed to notice my RB missive above. Or was it just too much for you all to admit that's how you feel? ;-)

That bodes well for my chances of one day having sex with aliens.

Someonez haz to seez them firzt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=Ahg6qcgoay4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hNc9d3KUy0&feature=related

We are the aliens. And look at what we're doing to…

Anyhoo, Stephen Hawkings said this;

To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens perfectly rational.

"The real challenge is to work out…

Ok, so they generally call this blowing smoke up someone's fattoush, but it speaks to the viral nature of religion (and the internet), idol worship, and a bit of a laff...

Hope it's not too old.

I see very little mention of God's causal influence on the weather report

Probly not such a winning sales pitch for the church, that one

Duran Duran had the Guinness Record for the loudest crowd at a concert.

a dubious honour for the band. I've always wondered how it would feel to be in a band like that, maintaining a career decades after releasing anything of note. I'd rather be in Duran Duran than say…

Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink… We're more popular than Jesus now—I don't know which will go first, rock and roll or Christianity."

I'm not sure which is more annoying – acting like Jesus was the son of God, or some musician. The massive scale rituals we enact…

Many thanks for your thoughtful comments, Chris. May I politely disagree with your point 2 (above).

Certainly David (and I have strong doubts that I'd fit the criteria of religious;), you're more than welcome to, perhaps I didn't word it so well, however I feel the ideas that

~Religious belief…

David I must also apologise for my first grumpy post. Sorry.

Crikey, no apology necessary! I wasn't offended at all. Although now I shall have to go back and check whether I should've been! [Checks] No... phew!

I would much rather you gave the credit for all those…

Sometimes it requires an effort to stand back and remind myself that religion does also (much more quietly) do many good things for society.

I would much rather you gave the credit for all those good things to the people who perform them. Crediting it to that vague spectre religion…

And try doing science without basic concepts like zero.

I believe the Mayan culture had Zero,
before the Conquistadors/church arrived
and tried to reduce them to that...
torching all their books for good measure

'The Problem with Religion' works because
1. It is very funny
2 It is a popularized stance.
if this were an attack on feminism thinly veiled under the title 'The Problem with -isms', or an attack on homosexuality titled 'The Problem with Sexuality', all hell would break loose.

…

Sorry, no Andin. My dish is but persuasive language with a sprinkling of anecdote

And you are very good at it.
Communication misunderstanding I thought you were referring to the Long March. I see from your links you meant the Cultural Revolution.
Not much I can say, I don't…

Then again, absence of proof is not proof of absence. William Cowper. He was a poet, and as Bjork said 'you can't trust a poet'.

Yes, as a principle for enabling the possibility of God, it sounds weak. When applied to some other domain, like my business, it's Gospel. The…

My further respect.

Kewl, I'll, uh, pass it on. Like next time the Jehovah's show, as they're wont to do in these parts, I'll tell them how, while I wouldn't still be on deck but for a blood transfusion, I admire their pacifist stand in WW2. They always look so…

I honestly do not believe that if there's any thing in the universe that comes close to fitting a definition of any god of ours, we could in any way apprehend it.

Word to that. The limits of our perception are not known, and therefore the possibilities are endless. I…

What do I win?

My further respect.

. . . does that say more about The National Party, National Party supporters, or his parents?

As the National Party was founded in 1936, kind of late for great-grandfatherly stuff, I'm guessing the parents. What do I win?

I don't have any stories in my life like the one about the Jehovah's Witness outcast with respect to Atheists oppressing their children.

My great grandfather was kicked off the farm and disinherited for voting Labour, does that say more about The National Party, National Party supporters, or his parents?…

Good morning Andin, thanks for your reply.

Horrendous atrocities committed in the PRC back in the day to stifle religion,resulted in significantly limited freedom of public expression of religion

Here's a reasonable overview

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China

The People's Republic of China was established in 1949. Its government is…

If you peer into the pre-dawn shadows of that sickening sight it wouldn't have been hard to see the grim reaper chuckling happily away to…

absence of proof is not proof of absence

Sure, then again personally if I said I was agnostic I'd be lying, because I honestly do not believe that if there's any thiing in the universe that comes close to fitting a definition of any god of ours, we could in…

Enough atheist propaganda. Atheism isn't about thinking, as any acquaintance with them shows. It's about convenience.

Roger, I'd like to present you with the Please Do Keep Talking Award for Pwn Goal of the Week. None of us could do your position as much of a disservice as you are.

"I'm an Atheist, my wife's agnostic. We had huge fights over which religion not to bring our kids up in"

True story, my man's mum couldn't make her mind up, then decided Agnostic. They went to an Anglican church once a fortnight. :)

Enough atheist propaganda. Atheism isn't about thinking, as any acquaintance with them shows. It's about convenience.

So Roger,what propaganda do you follow? How convenient is that for you? How selective is your study with that religion and how do you deduce that, which must have "gross factual errors"?

"To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition."

"I'm an Atheist, my wife's agnostic. We had huge fights over which religion not to bring our kids up in"

Any definition of atheism that treats it as other than a religious position is rather silly, surely? These definitions all seem to be invented for the convenience of atheists.

There's more than one definition of atheism? And all these alternate definitions have been invented by atheist? for their convenience?

The…

I will give that even the most vociferous Atheist, hell bent on getting you thinking really hard about something they think it's a waste of the world's time to think about, is nowhere near as annoying as proselytizing Christians

The idea that atheists want to encourage thought is mildly amusing.…

Roger Pearse -kia ora.
Atheism is a religious position only inasmuch an atheist excludes all religions(deities) or any religious perspective from it's view of the world-as-we-know-it-

Any definition of atheism that treats it as other than a religious position is rather silly, surely? These definitions all seem to be invented…

agri-culture on floodplains

I think you're onto something – remember being told that the Nile's priests used the annual flood as a major source of power. Worked OK most of the time though every now and then a major drought eroded the faith of their believers that offering virgins and…

that 'lest we forget' will turn into just another emptily, thoughtlessly parroted phrase, devoid of meaning.

You'd think the origin of those white poppies was closer to "lest we forget" – but the recent loud denouncing in some quarters is very much of an inflexible religious tone. Sacrilege.

I will give that even the most vociferous Atheist, hell bent on getting you thinking really hard about something they think it's a waste of the world's time to think about, is nowhere near as annoying as proselytizing Christians

Living somewhere where others' religion and lack of is just not…

hell bent on getting you thinking really hard about something they think it's a waste of the world's time to think about, is nowhere near as annoying as proselytizing Christians,

I wish everyone thought like you.

Probably because they're too busy disrespecting the sabbath or something.

Pointedly sleeping in.

I will give that even the most vociferous Atheist, hell bent on getting you thinking really hard about something they think it's a waste of the world's time to think about, is nowhere near as annoying as…

Isn't there some cat called Dick Dawkins who makes a living carrying on about it?

Last I heard he was an evolutionary biologist and author and made his living doing that. He did write on book specifically about religion.
"Makes a living carrying on about it" is as an inaccurate…

'lest we forget' will turn into just another emptily parroted phrase, devoid of meaning or thought

What happens when it's over? Will it finish?
ok coat getting...

Are you talking about ANZAC day now?

I had a little bet with myself a few days ago that Tom might turn up and make a point like that. I'm pleased to be able to say I won.

I do think he has a point, though. ANZAC day has turned…

Probably because they're too busy disrespecting the…

Oooo Who are they, pray tell?

Isn't there some cat called Dick Dawkins who makes a living carrying on about it? It was the only sect of non-believers at University that I can remember had their own club about it, and regularly gave Christians airtime and a pulpit in loud…

and don't even go to Church.

How do you know they are christian?
Do they pray prior to the christmas gorgefest.

my co-workers are Mormons and I never even knew.

Heard of Mr Deity? The creator…

There is nothing inherent in atheism which requires removing belief from other people, though some atheists do behave like that.

Yes, the atheists we hear from most often. It's definitely an unfair representation. Excessive piety is also an unfair representation of Christians, the vast majority of whom in this country…

Um solar water heaters......?

Sorry Andin, just catching up on reading this thread...

I don't want to de-rail an interesting discussion here, but to quickly reply to your question (and given that I can't email you privately!):

1. I'm no longer an energy engineer, so it's been a…

. . . the intolerance of heretical dissent by the true believers.

There's always been an element of the death cult among the more jingoistic proponents of the ANZAC tradition. I do wonder why those who are exercising themselves over white poppies aren't protesting the sneaky commercialisation of the occasion,…

Gee Hope you werent thinking of me when you wrote that.

No, of course I wasn't. I was simply trying to NOT deny that there are 'radical' atheists.

Tom: that thing people go to on ANZAC morning? IS a religious service. So how can it be a substitute for religion?

A wicked thought: surely atheism is the most definite advocate of this particular view, in our day?

One need only look as far as Hollywood, someone earlier mentioned Disney films and this theme "you just need to believe", and then we'd see some kid believe, defy convention and astound the…

There is nothing inherent in atheism which requires removing belief from other people, though some atheists do behave like that.

Gee Hope you werent thinking of me when you wrote that.
But if you were...
I don't want to remove belief in gods.
I would prefer people just to give…

This Sunday we'll all be able to behold the extraordinary spectacle of a self-avowed secular society shuffling off en masse at dawn to…

a pathological insistence that there be no stamps in the house, and campaigning for them to be removed from the world

Um, no. There is nothing inherent in atheism which requires removing belief from other people, though some atheists do behave like that. There is an insistence that neither they…

I'm very grateful to a dear friend of mine for giving me a great way of expressing this: Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Heh. I'd be more inclined to think of it as Atheism being a pathological insistence that there…

We should bear in mind that "do not commit adultery" is not exactly convenient to the Selfish Generation (remember "if it feels good, do it"?), and they are the ones in power and so in control of the media agenda in our day.

Oh sure they are. But hey, all…

Atheism is a religious position only inasmuch an atheist excludes all religions(deities) or any religious perspective from it's view of the world-as-we-know-it-

I'm very grateful to a dear friend of mine for giving me a great way of expressing this: Atheism is a religion in the same way that not…

A wicked thought: surely atheism is the most definite advocate of this particular view, in our day?

And yet, it took you, a presumably well educated person, to utter this superficial and inane statement.

Oh Boy and again...

applies to *all* religious positions, including "secularism" and "atheism",

Because religion *qua religion* is not part of modern science. Which isn't to say that religious people aren't or haven't been scientists or that, historically, science and religion have not intermingled – just that modern science doesn't have a place for faith-based thinking and it shouldn't have to.

Indeed not;…

I'm mighty glad you showed up Roger, you're doing good work and so polite to boot.

You're very kind. I sort of presume that most of us would rather have the basic facts straight — the sort of things that can be looked up, if we had the time. Opinions,…

I learned a great deal about humans, humaneness, and history: my erratic – but religion-directed studies- early brought me into fields that I had…

I happened to see this thread, and wonder if I can contribute on this? This "Jesus=Mithras" stuff floats around on the web. A few years ago I got tired of seeing it and researched it. The *facts* involved turned out to be wrong.

... it does appear that when you…

Because religion *qua religion* is not part of modern science.

That's not an answer. It's a "it's not considered important because it's not considered important" position. As is:

There are better ways of doing science but you're too blinkered to think of them" is not an argument.

No, it's a…

I notice you don't acknowledge that they're also a hugely important part of science, at least the history thereof. Why is that?

Because religion *qua religion* is not part of modern science. Which isn't to say that religious people aren't or haven't been scientists or that, historically, science and religion…

The emergence from it was also from a rediscovery of this heritage, mostly by the same Church. Western Europeans were also not the only Christians by a long shot, nor was Rome their only center.

And that rediscovery occurred in the main when Christian scholars read the works of Arab…

I suspect that worked very well for Christianity until the tail end of the middle ages, when some troublemakers started insisting the Bible be printed in the common language and not Latin.

And then a few hundred years later mass literacy took a hold and all heck broke loose.

We…

whenever one feels tempted to say that all this religion has ever done is suppress science.

"Religion" wants to impose a status quo of its own reckoning. Anything that doesn't fit is excluded. I suppose that may be where any suppression may arise. Also its hierarchy targets people, its very…

Ouch...

Heh. "All the best" – except to you "atheists of limited education" who may happen to be lurking.

I happened to see this thread, and wonder if I can contribute on this? This "Jesus=Mithras" stuff floats around on the web. A few years ago I got tired of seeing it and researched it. The *facts* involved turned out to be wrong.

Roger, thanks for that. I'm by no…

I don't recall ever once being invited to actually speculate on the laws of the universe. At what level does this happen?

Well beyond undergrad. I've mentioned before that a friend of mine is fond of saying that he got his PhD in physics despite, rather than because of, 13…

religious animosity.

Yeah, why cant humanity be one big happy family.
Cause that's all religions want....right?

Am visiting here in the shooting event.

A poor bastard who runs a ascrap metal yard got radiation blasts from cobalt 60 whcih someone sent to india it looks like. Cobalt 60 for christs sake!!!

God has not found India. if he had…

Really? They've dropped stuff like Thomson's "plum pudding" model of the atom from the syllabus? When I were a lad, we were endlessly learning stuff only to find that it hadn't held up to later scrutiny.

I was a kid too, seems like a millennium ago. Never heard of your…

Actually, the Dark Ages were called that in very large part because of the almost complete loss of Greek learning within the scholarly circles of western Europe (which was effectively identical with the Roman church.)

The emergence from it was also from a rediscovery of this heritage, mostly by the…

reading these works in their original language and translating, commenting upon, debating with, and improving upon their theories and methods. (See for example Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī, who effectively invented algebra in the 9th century.)

from the link

His contributions had a great impact on language. "Algebra" is derived from…

Like....what?

Like the kind that non-western scientists came up with. Can you not even imagine anything different? Is it inconceivable?

That isn't to say that they're always done perfectly, but the principle (hypothesise, test, record observations, discard/don't discard hypothesis) is sound.

So sound it's not worth discussing alternatives? Or even…

I was pissed off when the US invaded Baghdad and protected the Oil Ministry's filing cabinets while allowing the museums to be looted of all humanity's taonga.

And try doing science without basic concepts like zero.

How did giraffes get their long necks?

Must ask the Mormons next time they drop by. No point raising it with the Jehovahs though, giraffes don't seem to figure in their cosmology. Does anyone know why paradise always looks like Switzerland in Watchtower magazines?

The works of the ancient world mostly survived because of the Church rather than in spite of it. Yes, they were hugely influential on science, and they were hugely influential on the Church too.

Actually, the Dark Ages were called that in very large part because of the almost complete…

Eastern/Western is becoming a little old hat.

..It kind of insinuates that all those western ships and trade carts carried back empty holds and minds from their destinations. However I feel a truer version is that 'the western' is by and large heavily…

Kids are taught a huge array of scientific facts without ever being asked to challenge any of them, or being shown how it was that other ideas might have been compelling, and then disproven.

Really? They've dropped stuff like Thomson's "plum pudding" model of the atom from the syllabus? When…

It seems to me that other kinds of science are possible than the kind that Westerners came up with.

..hypothesise, test, record observations, discard/don't discard hypothesis) is sound.

but how western or Christian ابو علي، الحسن بن الحسن بن الهيثم was, is probably debatable.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ibn_al-Haytham

But then the similarities between…

It seems to me that other kinds of science are possible than the kind that Westerners came up with.

Like....what? Because as far as providing us with testable pieces of information about the world goes, the basic methods of modern science is pretty much where it's at. That isn't to…

And thank you also, Mike Hollywood, for your fascinating information on the evolution of the Celtic/Rangers…

The example of Socrates has always struck me as drawing very stark parallels to that of Christ.

There are some interesting parallels between a lot of mediterranean/middle-eastern religions and christianity once you start looking.

Mithras was 'born of a virgin'. And did the whole nailed-to-a-tree-and-coming-back-to-life thing.

Which also appears in…

there's a strong element of cultural superiority to the whole argument

Just don't mention "art"

But religion performs the rather insidious trick of placing a belief system at the centre of the lives…

I don't know if I agree with this entirely, because there's a strong element of cultural superiority to the whole argument which largely ignores scientific development in non-Western areas, but the case can be made.

This troubles me too. It's one of the main reasons I don't trust Western scientific…

This is really based on my own prejudices about science, which are that it is predominantly a highly…

I used to buttonhole religious door knockers and involve them in theological arguments (being the son of a reasonably liberal Presbyterian minister has its advantages every now and again) – but the fun's sort of gone out that, it's too easy.

I'm married to a man who was thisclose to…

As explained to me, by a drunk Marxist, the key to having a successful religion is to have a really big book filled with contradictory information. Then religious leaders sell all subjective truth in religion by reading the bits that appeal to their customers.

I suspect that worked very well…

The works of the ancient world mostly survived because of the Church rather than in spite of it.

Book burning through the ages. Quite interesting in itself. Not all religiously motivated, but at least some were. I think your point is valid in some cases, but they were also guilty…

Do you mean that Western (?) religion has been too either/or?

No, I mean more that either/or thinking probably sped science along it's path. It's the strange paradox that only by being wrong most of the time can we hope to actually be right some of the time. If we…

You don't think you might be under-estimating the scientific contribution of pagan Greece, Rome and Egypt?

Not to mention the large bodies of scientific knowledge accrued in the Indian subcontinent, millenia before the rise of Greece and Rome.

"I do not greet them with icy rejection... because I know they've had icy rejection from every other house in the street, and I feel terribly, terribly sorry for them."

I feel sorry for them too, as I would for anyone who has imposed this on themselves.
Like the sound…

I don't think it's a coincidence that Science's cradle was in such an environment.

You don't think you might be under-estimating the scientific contribution of pagan Greece, Rome and Egypt? (I understand the basic principle could still apply, but you appear in that paragraph to be tying it pretty explicitly…

I don't think it's a coincidence that Science's cradle was in such an environment. It's the rebellious child of religion, and it surpasses the parent, but it's still from the same bloodline.

Sounds interesting. Do you mean that Western (?) religion has been too either/or?

I have just read The…

http://www.startchurch.com/ministers/custom-license

The gospel which your Grandfather refers to is probably either the Infancy gospel of Thomas, or the Syriac Infancy gospel.

A day on which I learn something is a good day. Even better when it's as wiggy as that.

Following the link to the Syriac Infancy Gospel: __It contains a…

What's the difference between his "There is only one truth, and that's my truth" and that of organised religions?

Dawkins and his ilk don't go doorknocking, although it wouldn't surprise me if they took it up. But yes, making a belief of unbelief is a royal pain.

Re. Top Gear,…

Am I the only one who finds Richard Dawkins and the other "atheism uber alles" usual suspects to be at least as objectionable as overtly in-your-face religious types? What's the difference between his "There is only one truth, and that's my truth" and that of organised religions?

Late reply I…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRQ6QEeeEAY

I love Top Gear. Of course, I partially watch it because Richard is so lickably gorgeous. Your excuse is probably different. Cars or something.

Fast lovely cars – the skits with caravans and old dungers not so much. And nothing about licking, you're right.

nah yobbos doing stupid stuff is…

Hope that's the vid I was thinking of

Ae, worth an embed. Thou shalt not make repetitive generic music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoN6XfyQsr4

Jesus that's a depressing story, Ben.

It's kind of got a happy ending, though? It's amazing what people can rise above. I think her family saw some of the error of their ways too, in the end.

Now she provides blissful relief to thousands of people in pain – she…

Putting the heavy in metal

Amen, brothers and sisters.

The Beatles – Were just a band.
The Sex Pistols – Just a band.
The Clash – Just a band.
Minor Threat – Just a band.
The Cure – Just a band.
The Smiths – Just a band.
Nirvana – Just…

I think what a lot of this boils down to is a question: What relationship is there between the metaphysical claims of music on one hand, and its ethical strictures and effect on an individual's relationship with their wider community on the other?

This is where a lot of modern,…

What relationship is there between the metaphysical claims of religion on one hand, and its ethical strictures and effect on an individual's relationship with their wider community on the other?

Being Christian or christian

could this be one for the copyright thread?

As dead as god in Australia, I'm afraid

I love Top Gear. Of course, I partially watch it because Richard is so lickably gorgeous. Your excuse is probably different. Cars or something.

Fast lovely cars – the…

Then the boys, in the form of kids, came out, and began to dance round Him; and the women, seeing this, were very much astonished...

... And immediately, while these women were standing by, the kids were changed into boys.

OMG: Jesus turned the kids into kids, and then back…

A clear case of provocation. That fig tree was totally asking for it.

Well, he can't get away with that excuse any more can he! Guess that shoots down the omnipotent theory....

Jesus that's a depressing story, Ben.

Much of my extended family still resides in the Exclusive Brethren and are permanently estranged. My grandfather was blocked at the door at his own brother's funeral.

And then on the other side of the family there's the great-uncle I've never met. They disowned…

As often as religious belief causes people to act selflessly and for the good of others, it seems to provide an excuse for other people to indulge their…

Eventually,…

Impressed with the goat-story-finding. I was was assuming it was part of the reasonably various body of extra-biblical folklore.

When I was at school, I had two RE teachers over the course of some years.

One of them was yer common-or-garden RE teacher. When challenged on any point (such as…

It'll tell you which US states are the most pious, show religious trends in India and keep you up to date on the Pope's job approval ratings.

Also, things like same-sex marriage laws around the world.…

I think Jeremy Clarkson is a world-class fuckwit, and yet still I am compelled to watch.

I think some of the time he's an idiot, but I find him very funny. He reminds me of a friend of mine who is also into cars, in his humour and mannerisms.

For…

Am I the only one who finds Richard Dawkins and the other "atheism uber alles" usual suspects to be at least as objectionable as overtly in-your-face religious types? What's the difference between his "There is only one truth, and that's my truth" and that of organised religions?

I tend to…

I recall reading a story about Jesus walking up rainbows in front of the other kids, and when he let them try he dropped them. And when their parents complained he…

The gospel which your Grandfather refers to is probably either the 'Infancy gospel of Thomas, or the Syriac Infancy gospel.

A day on which I learn something is a good day. Even better when it's as wiggy as that.

I think Jeremy Clarkson is a world-class fuckwit, and yet still I am compelled to watch. I can offer no excuse.

My wife blames the flashy editing. She says she can't turn her eyes away from it.

I haven't read much of the bible at all. How many sections make Jesus look like a Catholic priest trolling for nookie?

Celibacy. Ur doin it wrong.

I think Jeremy Clarkson is a world-class fuckwit, and yet still I am compelled to watch.

Ditto. Even as I suspect we are…

I rather like Christians. However I've only ever met a very few of them.

You have a field guide?

Am I the only one who finds Richard Dawkins and the other "atheism uber alles" usual suspects to be at least as objectionable as overtly in-your-face religious types? What's the difference between his "There is only one truth, and that's my truth" and that of organised religions?

Falsifiability.

But no,…

I feel that religious conviction should come from within, rather than being impsed from without.

Deborah wrote:

I rather like Christians. However I've only ever met a very few of them.

Oh, touché.

Joe Wylie wrote:

Pinocchio being a thin knock-off of Jesus, right down to having holes…

The gospel which your Grandfather refers to is probably either the 'Infancy gospel of Thomas, or the Syriac Infancy gospel.

Oh, how I have misjudged my grandfather!

But wow, no wonder they decides to leave the 'Infancy gospel of Thomas' out of the official version. Killing a…

It seems to me that possibly the reason the church decided to drop these gospels is because they don't exactly show Our Lord Jeebus in the best of lights. In fact, I'd go as far as to say he comes across as an unmitigated little shit.

In fairness, he did…

I've always thought that the problem with religion (and especially Christianity) is that it's so very loud

I'm as godless as they come but I must say I do miss church bells.

Thus when the Mormons knock on my door while I'm watching Top Gear

Wow, they really are trying…

Balance? How do you know the scales are tipped in such a way that you must be polite?

Dude, I think I explained this by my words later in that same paragraph:

"I do not greet them with icy rejection... because I know they've had icy rejection from…

Neither of these is canonical in the sense that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are. The Church decided to quietly drop a certain number of gospels back in the reign…

Personally, I don't have…

I rather like Christians. However I've only ever met a very few of them.

In my singing group, I'm am the one who does the most to help the person with disabilities whose presence in the group is disruptive and difficult. I am the godless…

Incidentally, I've read the Bible a couple of times, and have never found any mention of Jesus transforming children into goats, so I suppose it was invented by my grandfather purely in order to enrage proselytizers.

He possibly adapted that from Pinocchio, which is understandable, Pinocchio being a thin knock-off…

I should mention at this point that I very much dislike people being rude to religious believers — because it makes me feel compelled to be polite by way of balance.

Balance? How do you know the scales are tipped in such a way that you must be polite? Or…

Jesus famously cursing a fig tree (to death)..

A clear case of provocation. That fig tree was totally asking for it.

Incidentally, I've read the Bible a couple of times, and have never found any mention of Jesus transforming children into goats, so I suppose it was invented by my grandfather purely in order to enrage proselytizers.

Wonderful but rather unnecessary when there's perfectly bizarre stories already included in said book.…