Public Address | Cafe | Southerly: One Hundred and Thirty-one Million Reasons to Copenhagenize Christchurch

Kyle Matthews

Sat, 09 Nov 2013 09:04:40 +1300

This seems relevant to your work on cycle helmets/safety David:

http://jalopnik.com/swedes-develop-invisible-bike-helmet-1460189477/@jasontorch?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Biobbs

Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:14:45 +1200

Another news item showing how Copenhagen got it right from the 70s onwards – and what ChCh might look like in five years' time if common sense prevails:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20091057-54/copenhagen-a-city-of-suv-cyclists/?fb_ref=fbrecT&fb_source=home_multilin

Kumara Republic

Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:06:49 +1200

Is Dorothy’s High-Class Cakes still there?

You mean Dorothy’s Patisserie? Unfortunately the owners retired rather than risk bankruptcy from rising rentals. Espressoholic has since shifted there from Courtenay Pl.

Sacha

Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:48:34 +1200

not my neck of the woods, sorry. someone else might know

Hebe

Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:09:53 +1200

Is Dorothy's High-Class Cakes still there?

Sacha

Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:45:54 +1200

Cuba St, for instance, used to be a mainstream shopping street with banks

Like this beauty

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:40:28 +1200

Interesting urban areas don't often arise out of council's plans, but often in contrast to those plans.

Cuba St, for instance, used to be a mainstream shopping street with banks and department stores. Those all moved across to the Lambton Quay area, and Cuba St became a neglected area with…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:46:59 +1200

It is also proposing to introduce regulations to restrict commercial developments in suburban areas for the next five years to stimulate investment and development in the city, and make it harder for businesses to set up elsewhere.
oh great, no more corner dairies??
all our small suburban shopping centres have…

Sacha

Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:18:58 +1200

Sunday Star-Times

Some useful detail, but only the one narrow group interviewed. Surprise.

Plans to spend nearly $2 billion rebuilding Christchurch's quake-ruined central business district could be money down the drain if businesses can't be convinced it is in their financial interests to move back.
...
Canterbury Employers' Chamber of…

Hebe

Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:06:38 +1200

I reckon that should be feng sway these days.

Hebe

Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:05:31 +1200

Yes; and silly old Lois Cairns in the Sunday Star-Times has taken the bait today hook line and sinker, as she always does. The SST is in a unique position to contribute to the Chch debate because it has the time to examine stories and distance to give it some…

Just thinking

Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:53:47 +1200

The four aves are still of uknown/unstated stability.
The plan is very much a dream untill this is known & it is likely to settle over the next year(s).
My office is built on solid silt and the concrete floor is bowing – it could be an optical illusion but I…

Sacha

Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:14:55 +1200

Earthquake risk hasn't stopped the Japanese or the Californians from building upwards, so surely it can't stop ChCh from doing the same.

Given that they're proposing a CBD quarter the previous size (and not for quake reasons; it was failing before that), imagine how small the area would be if…

Emma Hart

Sat, 13 Aug 2011 23:32:52 +1200

Wind tunnels too; Hereford St east of the Square used to be foul.

It really was, which is a pity, cause there were some good shops down there.

Ross Mason

Sat, 13 Aug 2011 22:53:51 +1200

"I suppose what I would suggest, if that is enforced, is they build a structure that could take another 13 metres at some later stage when people's mood changes towards the concern around earthquakes."

The prick who said that demonstrates how to pass "Progress and Development 101":

How to get…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 23:36:19 +1200

Earthquake risk hasn't stopped the Japanese or the Californians from building upwards, so surely it can't stop ChCh from doing the same.

Hebe

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:29:26 +1200

Wind tunnels too; Hereford St east of the Square used to be foul.

Hebe

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:04:16 +1200

Good link. As one of the commenters mentioned, the problem is the small market, 400,000 people spread out over a reasonably large area is big spend for a small market. BTW, the light rail idea came from the previous mayor Gary Moore, who repeatedly tried to put it up as…

Islander

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:02:30 +1200

t will be interesting to see if the Greens get 10%+ of the vote, then the government of day would have battle with the Greens over a

Wee bet*: Greens get plus 12% of the party vote: Labour regains at least one Maori seat, and the Maori party is electorally…

Sacha

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:52:35 +1200

AKT blog touches on the light rail side of the plan, with more info and links in the comments. One of them notes:
It will be interesting to see if the Greens get 10%+ of the vote, then the government of day would have battle with the Greens over any…

Hebe

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:45:21 +1200

Hey we could do like 1981: rugby and riots all in one glorious package. Bugger, can't remember the chants though. We'll need senility flash cards for the bit after 2-4-6-8, we don't want your bloody quake...

Islander

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:33:28 +1200

Long as I can bring over my Coast blasters (not less than a trillion tonnnes per hour or so-in a good storm) I'm with you-

Sacha

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:24:59 +1200

violent agreement

Hebe

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:23:29 +1200

Do we get riots too? As well as the World Cup; I can't wait. Been a while since I had a good protest.

Hebe

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:21:37 +1200

Sorry, not meaning to be confrontationalistic. The politics of the announcement were all show, again: Thursday release, in time for Key's Friday visit, so the Weekend Press can unpick it all, but not quite enough time for the journos and thinkers to do more than a once-over. So public, with…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:05:45 +1200

Con-sultation.
Duh.

Sacha

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:59:10 +1200

Why accept the CCC spin on the building heights?

What am I accepting? I agree with Emma that light is a more compelling motivation than fear. Someone on another thread also explained that high-rise buildings were if anything more eco-friendly than 4-floor ones, so it's not a clear-cut matter.

But…

Islander

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:58:23 +1200

con-insultation

where one party sniggers at another involved-but-relatively- powerless party's
lack of whack-

until the riots come-

Hebe

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:52:19 +1200

Con-sultation.

Hebe

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:49:46 +1200

Why accept the CCC spin on the building heights? The public when con-sulted (hyphen intended) asked overwhelmingly for no higher than four storeys, preferably two. The CCC has extended that to seven over a reasonably large chunk of the central city. Analyse the height of the buildings in that area…

Sacha

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:22:13 +1200

if you deliberately design the roads and zoning to encourage sprawl

and who do you imagine lobbied for that?

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:03:51 +1200

the Minister may make any changes ... to the draft Recovery Plan as he or she thinks fit

The people advise, Gerry ignores.

James Butler

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:00:07 +1200

Also, none of that professional planning restricting the superior intelligence of the free market. Every city can look like downtown Auckland if they’re left alone.

Well, every city can look like Auckland if you deliberately design the roads and zoning to encourage sprawl...

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:59:59 +1200

Surely the building height is a matter for the building code and should be set according to engineering principles? It's possible to build tall buildings that withstand big earthquakes – whether it's economic to do so is another matter.

The city plan should be about what's appropriate from an urban…

Sacha

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:38:55 +1200

It's also what the community said it wanted

And watch that get overturned by lobbying during the next stage of the process. Developer profits uber alles. Just ask Gerry.

Emma Hart

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:16:39 +1200

is they build a structure that could take another 13 metres at some later stage when people’s mood changes towards the concern around earthquakes.

It's not just about fear, though. It's also about letting light into the city, and particularly around the Square, which was quite literally over-shadowed by some…

Sacha

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:09:11 +1200

More reesponse to proposed building heights.

"I think the height is going to be an issue for some property owners," Paul Lonsdale from the Central City Business Association told TV ONE's Breakfast.

"You've got hotels that were traditionally 30 metres but now they're restricted to 17 metres.

"I suppose what…

Sacha

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:38:14 +1200

Also, none of that professional planning restricting the superior intelligence of the free market. Every city can look like downtown Auckland if they're left alone.

[Canterbury Employers' Chamber of Commerce chief executive Peter] Townsend said the plan needed to provide an "aspirational framework", and should not be too prescriptive.

"If…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 12 Aug 2011 07:44:14 +1200

. . . the proposed cycle lanes for the central city look good!!
All part of what the emperor now declares to be a pretty big wish list.

James Green

Thu, 11 Aug 2011 15:15:15 +1200

Don't know if it extends into the suburbs, but the proposed cycle lanes for the central city look good!!

Jeanette King

Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:59:27 +1200

Nice to see support for your idea, David, at the highest levels – I want one of those badges!

Rich Lock

Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:18:05 +1200

Odd, considering the associations with the devil's music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwKRyizwEKo

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:59:01 +1200

hung out to dry in the passing wind....
you just a spokesman
just like a Hills Hoist, eh Petard?
;- )

Ex-tractor fans... or Devonian tease
Mennonite? Nah more Ammonite
what goes around, comes around...

Joe Wylie

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:42:45 +1200

every person who converts from car to bicycle will...

...free up more air for people to breathe – as it won't be imprisoned in larger car tyres!!
For a moment there I thought you might be outing yourself as one of those old-school Mennonites that are reputed to reject pneumatic…

Islander

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:24:26 +1200

Yas! But if only you'd put it as tutu/ tuatua/o too-too- dear

petard

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 19:18:59 +1200

Ian thats to to tricky
you just a spokesman

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 17:35:20 +1200

Links and other connections...
derailleur
I've always thought of myself as more
of a chain yanker than a cog sucker...

... and it is de rigueur to be seen
in the top gear, don't ya think?

Stephen Judd

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:38:13 +1200

Ian, when it comes to my train of thought, you can only be described as a derailleur.

Islander

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 16:24:56 +1200

Hmmm.
That puts a whole new viewpoint on 'em.
The next ones I see I will view as large tuatua
+ plan the fritters...

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 15:50:12 +1200

Cycling gives you mussels...?
every person who converts from car to bicycle will...
...free up more air for people to breathe – as it won't be imprisoned in larger car tyres!!

But does this mean cyclists are bi-valves?

Sacha

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:49:27 +1200

every person who converts from car to bicycle will shave another car-length off the rush-hour traffic queue

Same argument works in favour of trains and buses too. Every truckie who thinks Mr Joyce is helping them by building a sprinkling of new motorways is missing far greater benefits per dollar…

Islander

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:06:28 +1200

I heard it quite often in Greymouth when I was a postie there, 40 years ago :)

BenWilson

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 11:24:39 +1200

Rural commuting was arguably the beginning of the successful cycle infrastructure in Europe. But they have quite a different rural makeup, countries like Holland are small and flat, and at the time that cycling was taking off, the horse was probably the most popular alternative.

Lucy Stewart

Sun, 24 Jul 2011 07:35:01 +1200

That paticular arguement means nothing to me – but, obviously, may mean something to motorists in other areas-

I'd think that argument was implicitly in the context of urban commuting. I mean, how often do you have arguments about how people who live on the West Coast should be doing…

Islander

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:42:54 +1200

Stephen J – while I agree with that- I live in a remote rural area. Cycles are not a goer here.
I'll never live in a city area, and will always (hopefully!) be dependent on motorised vehicles. That paticular arguement means nothing to me – but, obviously, may mean something…

Stephen Judd

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:29:10 +1200

I’m taking dictation from the lovely and helpful Kathy here:

**Of course, despite the economic and environmental benefits of cycle commuting, there will always be people who are implacably convinced of the superiority of car travel. Paradoxically, it is these die-hard motorists who should be the greatest supporters of an…

Sacha

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:09:45 +1200

The final paragraph is a real zinger.

Feel free to quote that here as well. Sheesh you lot are teasers.. :)

Stephen Judd

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 17:33:39 +1200

Thanks Ian — we did just that. For people catching up, a modified version of the original Copenhagize Chch post here has appeared in the Press today. I guess I could have inferred that from Matthew Reid's comment but I'm a bit slow on the uptake today and thought maybe…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 16:41:12 +1200

Combed The Press website...
You could try accessing it through Press Display page C10 & C11 of the Mainlander section of today's Press – this site is supposed to allow you access to two articles per chosen paper for free by signing in – but I couldn't get it to do…

Stephen Judd

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 15:43:07 +1200

Yes please. Combed The Press website, couldn't find it. I have an expat Cantabrian here who would love to see it (as would I).

Sacha

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 14:12:44 +1200

Can you link to it please.

David Haywood

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 13:38:10 +1200

Thanks, Matthew. It was edited by the famous Philip Matthews – who did a very nice job indeed! And he's a very pleasant chap to deal with as well.

Matthew Reid

Sat, 23 Jul 2011 09:09:17 +1200

Nice spread in The Press this morning David. Well done.

Ross Mason

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 15:50:36 +1200

Earthquakes 2856 as @ 3-50pm, 13 June.
Bicycles 0.

Islander

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 12:06:50 +1200

Agreed – but I thought that was both implicit & obvious...

Tamsin6

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 08:56:51 +1200

Thank you Jackie – empathy and condolences are both warmly appreciated.

Jackie Clark

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 05:19:04 +1200

Tamsin, I envelop you in a warm cloud of empathy, and if that doesn't float your boat, my sincere condolences.

linger

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 00:29:46 +1200

I suspect the "car-centric" label could be avoided by making a simple extension
(a cycle lane, if you like), viz:

many of our roads ARE NOT built to cater for cyclists
... in addition to cars.

Tamsin6

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 23:10:30 +1200

Thanks for your kind words David and Sacha – I am waiting for the time when things will seem less raw. I don't think I will ever be able to read or participate in any discussion about New Zealand roading without thinking things like "Dad would have said..." or "Dad…

Islander

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 14:01:30 +1200

Maz – I dont have a carcentric – or indeed, poweredvehicle-centric – head. I share the roads with many other drivers, some of whom drive enormous rigs or buses
which take up much of a lane. Our roads are built to cater for such. I share the road with scooters,…

Maz

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 13:35:13 +1200

Please Islander, to paraphrase yourself: Could you just get into your carcentric head, that our roads (except motorways etc) are for all of us, and tourists, to use, and that we should be able to do so safely.
Next time you come across a cyclist or a pedestrian, try slowing…

Islander

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:47:58 +1200

The original roads have generally been altered beyond recognition…I can remember when parts of SH 1 in the south were unsealed –
And when most of the road into Big O was not only unsealed but also one-way.

Ross Mason

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:35:11 +1200

Well actually, these roads were designed for an even slower mode of transport. Horses. Bikes are smaller and faster.

Sacha

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:35:04 +1200

this real chance to build something fantastic in Christchurch is not missed

Would be a great tribute to your dad and others who cared about doing it right. Thoughts with you and yours.

David Haywood

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:13:33 +1200

Hi Tamsin, I am so very sorry to hear about your father. I think quite a few of us at Public Address have lost important people recently, and our thoughts are with you. It does get better, but it just takes a while. With much sympathy, David

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:23:23 +1200

You might as well go the whole Priscilla Queen of the Desert :)
Tulle be sorry!
and beware the Isadora Duncan effect...

Tamsin6

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 04:13:28 +1200

I am also a latecomer to this thread. Sadly, this is because I have been in New Zealand spending time with my dad, and then attending his funeral last week. He was a traffic and roading engineer all his life, starting with his training with the MoW in Southland,and ending…

Islander

Fri, 10 Jun 2011 00:55:48 +1200

Visibility good. Increased visibility – better!

Not towing a swaying bike-trailer – best!

Please- can tourist bike people just get it into their heads that – as of now, and for the forseeable future, despite JohnKey's risible vision- all major state highways and *especially* non-state highways (rural roads) ARE NOT…

Christopher Dempsey

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:47:29 +1200

You might as well go the whole Priscilla Queen of the Desert :)

Oh! There's an idea...you mean like the outfits those miners wear... workboots, singlets and stubbies?? ;)

Kyle Matthews

Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:13:08 +1200

I use the same tactic from time to time when riding around. I let the yellow high viz vest flap around in the wind, and if I’m wearing a jacket I let it flap around – I like to think that the movement of the jacket will catch driver’s eyes…

Islander

Tue, 07 Jun 2011 19:08:08 +1200

I AM NOT a wingnut – but I am sure people have noticed that I have encountered idiot cyclists. I would fight very hard against 'vehicle drivers being automatically at fault." Also, against the same stupidity being propagated against vehicle drivers who hit pedestrians. One of my friends had a…

Christopher Dempsey

Mon, 06 Jun 2011 18:59:11 +1200

I'd suggest staying on Ponsonby Rd to Franklin Rd. That's all downhill, even if it's a little further. And both roads are pretty safe – Ponsonby is 40km/h zone so you can pretty much just take a lane and hold it. Coming down Franklin you'll hit 50km/h easy so you'd…

Sacha

Mon, 06 Jun 2011 11:17:50 +1200

Telecom broadband network builder envisages a de-centred new Christchurch.

At the Tuanz Telecommunications Day conference in Wellington, Gen-i Australasia chief executive Chris Quin said all major urban centres could become, well, less centred. Instead of being the centre of all business, civil and social activity, the current CBD could become…

Sacha

Mon, 06 Jun 2011 11:12:46 +1200

beautiful pre-quake-Chch porn. It makes Chch look like a toy ideal city.

surreal

recordari

Mon, 06 Jun 2011 09:59:33 +1200

That is amazing.

After this morning's shake up, even more eerie.

Russell Brown

Mon, 06 Jun 2011 08:59:21 +1200

Somewhat off topic, but I thought everybody might enjoy some beautiful pre-quake-Chch porn. It makes Chch look like a toy ideal city. I hope we can make it even better than this, one day.

That is amazing.

Gregor Ronald

Mon, 06 Jun 2011 08:14:19 +1200

I go for a combination; I have a couple of pairs of padded-bum cycle shorts that are light fabric, designed to be worn as underwear. I can wear regular work clothes on top, and after I get to work I take 5 mins in the bathroom changing into a fresh…

Jeffrey Paparoa Holman

Mon, 06 Jun 2011 01:31:01 +1200

David: This has been a great contribution to a necessary debate, especially as we look to what needs doing to rebuild Christchurch and make it more cycle-friendly in the process.

Islander: your ad hominem remarks about me and my background, from behind a nom de plume (a name you have…

Lilith __

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 19:34:39 +1200

Just who are you calling a ho?

wonder how long it took to make the model?
About 170 years, I reckon. And 20 seconds to break. Makes one feel a bit SMALL!

All the world's a model, and all the men and women merely figurines? More info on faking it,…

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 18:00:39 +1200

What do you think, Horatio?
Agreed. But if we could ‘Denmarkise’ our penal system as well as our urban planning that would be a brilliant thing….
I thought someone said there was something
rotten in the state of Denmark, or is it not
so much the cities, but just out…

Sacha

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 12:44:28 +1200

compulsory classes in Danish high schools cover urban planning

well-informed citizens would make a long-term difference

Lilith __

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 12:36:44 +1200

Somewhat off topic, but I thought everybody might enjoy some beautiful pre-quake-Chch porn. It makes Chch look like a toy ideal city. I hope we can make it even better than this, one day.

David Haywood

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 11:47:28 +1200

Thank you Gee and Blobbs (hopefully not your real name) for your great contributions to this thread. Yes, the overall urban planning issues are definitely an important factor in encouraging the citizens of Christchurch to commute by bike, and indeed very significant in NZ’s overall energy consumption.

It’s interesting to…

Martin Lindberg

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 10:28:01 +1200

Agreed. But if we could ‘Denmarkise’ our penal system as well as our urban planning that would be a brilliant thing….

Oh yes, definitely that. And the health system. And the public broadcasting. :-)

and the cheese and smørrebrød...

Biobbs

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 08:39:14 +1200

Agreed. But if we could 'Denmarkise' our penal system as well as our urban planning that would be a brilliant thing....

Oh yes, definitely that. And the health system. And the public broadcasting. :-)

Gee

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 07:25:31 +1200

Someone upthread said 'let's Denmarkise New Zealand' and while that is definitely something we *don't* want to do (there are some seriously fucked up things about Denmark), in urban planning it's hard to deny they've got it right.

Agreed. But if we could 'Denmarkise' our penal system as well as…

Biobbs

Sun, 05 Jun 2011 06:16:52 +1200

Latecomer to this thread having been away for a week but a couple more things:

The large number of cycles is not the only thing contributing to safety here – driver education and laws about how cars behave around cyclists are a big part of it. The onus is on…

Russell Brown

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 21:33:53 +1200

Hey, this is nice.

On the Guardian website, Alexei Sayle presents London by bike.

James Green

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 18:33:59 +1200

Most of my European cycling has been in one city in France (with a few days in Denmark & Portugal), and mostly in 1 city — of approximately the same size as Christchurch.
Couple of interesting observations
* They had contra direction on-road cycle lanes. Mostly in the historical centre, but…

Lilith __

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 17:14:26 +1200

the emancipatory power of cycling for 19th century women

Ha, thanks Sacha! Particularly like the pictures. :-)
(who needs lycra when you can wear 7 pounds of underwear under a woollen suit??)

Maz

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 16:35:52 +1200

Let's hope we do get that sudden shift in attitudes.
Eye contact, a friendly wave, a geeky thumbs up are all in my daily vocabulary when cycling, and hopefully the little actions of many will move, well not mountains but something.
Sorry Islander, but you are unfortunately wrong when it…

Sacha

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 11:49:07 +1200

Another historic angle – the emancipatory power of cycling for 19th century women. Wonder if Christchurch's suffragists have similar stories?

Jackie Clark

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 09:53:56 +1200

And lo and behold, there's an article in this morning's Press about whether cycling is safe here.

Jackie Clark

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 09:33:30 +1200

I'm down in Christchurch at the moment, and there's a couple of observations I'd make re cycling here. Many of the roads are still badly damaged, and there's alot of road works going on (certainly in the East and in town, anyway). There is fencing around most of the badly…

petard

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 08:59:32 +1200

I am a bit late to this (derailed by a derailleur ?) so apologies if the wheel has turned way past this.... i need to raleigh enthusiasm much earlier

It doesnt have to be all tarseal and heARTless commuter driven
we got to get the gardeners and artists involved

So…

Lucy Stewart

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 08:11:11 +1200

if I am precipitation prescient,
I tie a plastic shopping bag – kept
secreted on the bike – over the seat!

One of the best-kept secrets of regular biking. Keeping a flannel or some paper towels in your backpack is a good back-up, too.

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 04 Jun 2011 07:19:33 +1200

Saddle aside...
...not nice at the end of the day to
find your bike seat soaking wet

if I am precipitation prescient,
I tie a plastic shopping bag – kept
secreted on the bike – over the seat!

... a better life through chemystery!

some interesting bicycle minutiae here
and…

stephen walker

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 20:40:58 +1200

http://www.nextag.com/wicker-bicycle-basket/products-html
http://www.klickfix.com/index.php?mod=18&kat%5Bd%5D=-1&lang=en

what is the matter with nz retailers? don't they stock the stuff you can buy everywhere else?

Islander

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 20:20:14 +1200

Agreed! Thanks JackElder for the link- my, the things one learns on PAS...

suky thompson

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 20:19:50 +1200

Here are some more suggestions for making Chch more cycle friendly...

1. Schools could encourage kids to cycle by including cycle gear in the school uniform (ie jacket and waterproof trousers as part of uniform). They should provide a cloakroom where wet gear could be checked in and hung…

Islander

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 20:15:26 +1200

+1 too-

Lilith __

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 19:14:58 +1200

” On attend Godeau.”

Wow, how peculiar and fascinating.

Sacha

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 18:00:23 +1200

There has been a lot of work put in to Lake Road, Quay Street and the Newmarket viaduct, though, to name three big road I can think of off the top of my head. Although that may all be accounted for in last years budget.

You're seeing the fruits of…

JackElder

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 17:00:30 +1200

Waiting for Godwin

From the Guardian review of Tim Hilton's memoire, "One More Kilometre and We're In The Showers":

"How fascinating to discover, for instance, that Samuel Beckett's Waiting for Godot has a cycling connection. One Roger Godeau was a track ace at Paris's Vélodrome d'hiver after the war -…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 16:44:26 +1200

If you ride as if you are invisible you become much much safer
Up to a point, totally. But please: hand signals, indicate indicate indicate. Sometimes we can see you, sometimes we are happy to share the road- but almost never can we read your minds :)

Lilith __

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 16:36:15 +1200

The moment you presume anyone in a car (or even on foot) can see you is the moment when you are most at danger.

Agreed. I've found making eye contact with motorists and using a horn* are two good methods for de-cloaking when necessary.

*those old-fashioned ones with a rubber…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 16:33:06 +1200

I can’t help thinking that if you ride sitting up (a la Copenhagen video) then the chance of heading south onto your head may be reduced.

But some very basic training in Judo or similar, where you are taught how to control a fall so that less important bits…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 16:25:31 +1200

It’s the drivers who don’t see me that worry me

Bicycles are invisible, when you get on a bike you are invisible. David is the physics geek who can provide you with the math to prove it.

If you ride as if you are invisible you become much much safer.…

George Darroch

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 16:10:12 +1200

Lilith __

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:53:55 +1200

with, or without, a cross-bar?

...and there should be no stigmata in being a cyclist.

Lilith __

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:48:20 +1200

with, or without, a cross-bar?

:-)
Unless, o'course, you're Waiting for Godwin...

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:46:22 +1200

Jesus Christ...on a bicycle
with, or without, a cross-bar?

James Green

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 14:41:19 +1200

If Dali had painted bikes…

He also painted a Vespa that some students were taking on a trip to see the Pope (on display at the Piaggio Museum near Pisa, along with the gyrocopter vespa, the rocket launcher vespa, the fire engine vespa, the stretched (think limo) vespa, and all manner…

Lilith __

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 14:27:14 +1200

Jesus Christ...on a bicycle.

Matthew Reid

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:54:06 +1200

David Haywood wrote:
At 84 cm it’s not *much* wider than my existing handlebars and would certainly fit on the skinny CHCH bike lanes – and it looks oh so useful for carting round the little ‘uns. Beautiful! Er, would I have to sell my kidneys to be able to…

Rich Lock

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:52:08 +1200

Unlike standard patents, innovation patents in Australia don't get seriously examined until they are challenged, though. And that one did get revoked.....

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:45:59 +1200

reinventing the wheel...
Australian John Keogh, of Dandenong, Victoria, applied for a patent on the wheel in 2001; the Australian patent office, IP Australia, granted him Innovation Patent #2001100012. Keogh's 'circular transportation facilitation device' is described as having a "wide applicability in the transport of goods and persons from one…

Rich Lock

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:32:01 +1200

Big potholes appearing in roads in Auckland, and not being repaired. (Although it may be that I was looking for it, in the knowledge of cuts). Roads that fall apart are a pretty good visual indicator of the state of public spending in a country.

There has been a lot…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:28:03 +1200

putting the Catalan amongst the...
not watches
yet watches lead to bikes, spooky...

...and to an interesting site that posits the question (27.7.09 entry)
...what do Dalí & Hitler have in common?
answer:
Salvador Dalí was a real freaky bike freak.
...had an Italian Bianchi cycle in his studio and said…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:27:09 +1200

It may be the most annoying trait of NZ drivers that they seem to think they own any bit of the road that they can squeeze their car onto.
Islander, most of what you say about Kiwi social behaviour is true, until they get behind a wheel, then it's F**K…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 13:10:06 +1200

If Dali had painted bikes…
like this? *

I think this was called “Someone’s pinched me wheels!”

here he is casually painting a chopper
– Harley working up a sweat…

perhaps some his anonymous street work??

*from this Game Blog

George Darroch

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:55:18 +1200

Also the case in London.

Very much the case in Indonesia. The hive-mind is at play there, and it's completely unsurprising to see someone driving down the wrong side of a street. There are no lanes in practical terms. The expectation is that they'll make room for you, and you'll…

Lilith __

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:37:21 +1200

how about those viscous ones?

If Dali had painted bikes, not watches ;-)

Steve Barnes

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:22:28 +1200

Let’s keep up- and increase- our own good behaviour :)

Rob Stowell

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:11:51 +1200

My own theory is that it’s not something that changes slowly, but can actually switch around on public mood, and certain ideas that make traffic better or worse can spread virally in feedback loops. It only takes a few people being rude to you, and you’re much more likely to…

Steve Barnes

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:11:00 +1200

But at the high extreme of traffic density (e.g. urban Japan) the same amount of ‘selfish’ driving by each person would manifest itself in (almost) constant incidents, and the traffic would quickly become snarled. The only way that traffic can flow in a reasonable manner is for all participants to…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:10:08 +1200

I for one want those vicious cycles
off the roads, now!
how about those well-oiled viscous ones?

Lilith __

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 11:52:27 +1200

Roads that fall apart

Not to undermine your point about public spending at all, but it you want roads that fall apart, come to Otautahi!

George Darroch

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 11:48:49 +1200

basic pothole and surface repair will continue to deteriorate unless voters wise up or ratepayers pick up the slack in your area.

I've noticed that, actually. Big potholes appearing in roads in Auckland, and not being repaired. (Although it may be that I was looking for it, in the knowledge…

Sacha

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 11:36:23 +1200

The maintenance is a good point – especially since the CCC's current stance is "we clean gutters, not roads"

You'd be amazed how conventional road engineering culture prioritises stuff. Those barriers around bridge supports for instance? It's not you they're protecting. Similarly kerbs are to protect the subsurface layers from…

Lilith __

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 11:22:41 +1200

turns a vicious cycle into a virtuous one.

I for one want those vicious cycles off the roads, now! ;-)

David Haywood

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 11:17:30 +1200

Lucy Stewart

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 11:13:00 +1200

Well, clogged gutters mean clogged pipes, which is a cost to them. Glass on the road is only a cost to the general public. You can see what they’re thinking…

And the cost of the aftermath when a cyclist swerves to avoid glass and the car behind them doesn't realise…

Geoff Lealand

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 10:23:29 +1200

In Auckland, I think drivers’ awareness of cyclists has actually improved since last year’s cycling deaths made safety an issue.

I hope so. One cyclist killed and another seriously injured within Hamilton city in the past two days.

George Darroch

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 10:23:12 +1200

“we clean gutters, not roads”. Yes, that was the response when I asked why the street sweepers didn’t clear the broken glass & other detritus off the roads/cycle lanes.

Well, clogged gutters mean clogged pipes, which is a cost to them. Glass on the road is only a cost to the…

Alice Ronald

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 09:48:02 +1200

The maintenance is a good point – especially since the CCC's current stance is "we clean gutters, not roads". Yes, that was the response when I asked why the street sweepers didn't clear the broken glass & other detritus off the roads/cycle lanes.

JackElder

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 09:29:59 +1200

To briefly drag the topic back to cycleways... two other things that occurred to me as requirements for a proposed Christchurch cycle network. Lighting and littering.

Lighting is vital if you're running cyclepaths away from the main roading network, especially through parks. In winter, you can reasonably expect to be…

BenWilson

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 09:13:12 +1200

AKA: "The General NZ Driving Arsehole". And you can't tell me you don't see them everyday!!

It's kind of weird, but I've noticed that the manners of NZ drivers actually go up and down quite mysteriously. When I first went to Australia, I was amazed at how careful/lawful they were.…

Lisa Black

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 08:57:32 +1200

I don't know where my last post went, but it basically said I include everyone – yes, cyclists too – in my assessment. It's not drivers who have the problem, it's people. Oddly enough, I don't consider myself a wanker or a shit for thinking this, and I didn't come…

BenWilson

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 08:37:48 +1200

The number of times I've been hit by motorists, who then burst out, "ooh, I didn't see you" (while I was wearing flouro orange and three flashing lights) is staggering.

That said, most of the times I've been hit in a car they've said the same thing. It's so much…

Ross Mason

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 08:19:26 +1200

Heck, that’s a bit harsh! I certainly don’t read Jeffrey Paparoa Holman’s contribution as an attack on Maoridom;

Heh. Check out Dilbert in today's dom post. Those who can't read it have to wait until tomorrow for it to appear here on Dilbert.com

Ross Mason

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 08:16:01 +1200

I think that THESE is what the "bad mannered" road users are akin to.

AKA: "The General NZ Driving Arsehole". And you can't tell me you don't see them everyday!!

"General" here does not mean population general, rather, the person(s) generally characterised by Goofy, possessed, and influencing many…

Russell Brown

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 08:10:27 +1200

In Auckland, I think drivers' awareness of cyclists has actually improved since last year's cycling deaths made safety an issue. It's a grim reason for it to happen, but I do feel like drivers see me better now.

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 08:10:04 +1200

averse to the driving reign...
Very soon both Jeffrey Paparoa Holman
& Islander will be put up against a wall,
and shot – by tourists and locals alike!

Look out for them from the 17th of June...

:- )

David Haywood

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 07:31:29 +1200

Islander wrote:

I come round a tight corner and there’s 4 fuckin cyclists in front of me (and one right over on the wrong side of the road) – it’s only my brakes & well-maintained vehicle that save THEM from dying.

Yes, well you won't find any argument from me that…

Islander

Fri, 03 Jun 2011 01:33:43 +1200

Kia ora David H – yes/but

the Jeffrey Holman comments didnt have anything to do with MaoriAnzers/maoritaka, but everything to do with us all – the ‘driving culture’ (which I think is extremely variant throughout the motu) ISNT an established thing – it’s how we react in very different areas,…

David Haywood

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 23:52:01 +1200

Islander wrote:

we are not – emphatically – bad-mannered… We’d say you were fullashit. Mate.

Heck, that’s a bit harsh! I certainly don’t read Jeffrey Paparoa Holman’s contribution as an attack on Maoridom; my take is that he was merely commenting on the driving culture in this country.

**Jeffrey Paparoa…

James Green

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 23:51:12 +1200

My experience with nearly getting hit

I almost smashed a pedestrian yesterday, about a block south of where I got hit by a car a decade ago. She'd seen there were no cars coming, and was absolutely not paying any attention. I don't even think she realised how close I…

James Green

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 23:46:00 +1200

Isn't Cochrane the authority?

That would usually be the case yes. However, the latest meta-analysis includes newer studies with null findings, which may have some bearing.
A little more controversially, in the full text of the article they discuss some concerns with the Cochrane review. Firstly, the authors that conducted…

Lucy Stewart

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 23:39:17 +1200

Most of the unpleasant riding events I see would have been avoided with either good manners, making the effort to notice what’s around one, or just chilling the hell out.

My experience with nearly getting hit has often been not that someone didn't see me, but that they grossly underestimated…

Islander

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 23:19:43 +1200

I dont think that is courtesy – that is (I suspect) state-enforced heavy penalities if you squish someone…

Maybe we should blame ACC for everything? (Rolls eyeballs.)

I must admit I find wankers suggesting we should “learn some manners” really dont know what our manners are… we’re the people who…

nzMM

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 22:56:12 +1200

I cycle just about every day. Cycling is awesome.

Cycling in cities that care about cyclists is even better.

+10 for this idea!

I was in Hungary recently, I wasn't a cyclist but rather a pedestrian, and i was astounded at cars stopping for you when you approached the curb.…

Islander

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:54:36 +1200

I rather think there is a great divide between rural people (I live in a remote area) and city people, but I'd maintain that, quintessentially, the majority of ANZers are both polite and non-aggressive – your "unpleasant riding events I see''do not take into account the – frankly insane -…

Lisa Black

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:35:28 +1200

Well he's right about our bad manners and aggression anyway. Most of the unpleasant riding events I see would have been avoided with either good manners, making the effort to notice what's around one, or just chilling the hell out.

@ both Jameses, thank you for those references.

Islander

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:29:55 +1200

Actually Jeffrey, Japanese in social situations can be extremely aggressive – if a person steps out of percieved boundaries. I have good friends who are Japanese, and they find ANZ wonderfully enhancing & relaxing.

We do NOT have a’cult of the individual’ (I think we are family&friend oriented), and we are not…

Jeffrey Paparoa Holman

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:04:55 +1200

Hi David.
I've just come back from Japan, where bicycles are everywhere in the towns and cities. All ages, all shapes and sizes and they do it without any special lanes. Everyone in Japan is used to sharing space and you see the most amazing configurations of cars, pedestrians and…

Lilith __

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 19:47:04 +1200

James, that's very interesting, thanks.

But I note that they say in the highlights:

The findings of this meta-analysis are not consistent with a recently published Cochrane review.

Isn't Cochrane the authority?

James Green

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 18:39:18 +1200

As someone said above, helmet research is contested. What I would like to see is a graphic showing the average results of the studies. I'd like to be able to see whether the increased level of protection in the less likely direct impact scenario is outweighed by the increased likelihood…

George Darroch

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 18:19:30 +1200

I dont think a discussion on head impact mitigation devices is completely out of line here,especially if it gets more folks on their bikes

I think it's more important to build the infrastructure, create some more culture, and then when more people are riding and cycling is seen as safe…

bill schoffelmeer

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 17:37:50 +1200

Helmet safety is a myth, and hi-viz clothing isn't much better

Thanks Maz;I refuse to call them helmets for that reason.Motorcyclists wear helmets,and they do save lives.I used to ride motorbikes,and observed that if you rode a large black bike,wore black leathers,black helmet-everything black-drivers would get the hell out of…

Matthew Reid

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 17:12:29 +1200

In Denmark, the minimum standard width is 2.5 metres

cart before that horse

bike ‘porn’

Another reason for the wider lanes in Denmark is the trike, which is a pretty common sight on the streets of Copenhagen. We've got one from these guys. It's considerably wider than your average bike,…

Gee

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 17:06:34 +1200

Helmet safety is a myth, and hi-viz clothing isn't much better. It is all about awareness. The number of times I've been hit by motorists, who then burst out, "ooh, I didn't see you" (while I was wearing flouro orange and three flashing lights) is staggering.

And Lilith:
I think…

James Butler

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:47:44 +1200

This (from an article linked to by the late Sheldon Brown) isn't exactly what I was thinking of, but it articulates a similar principle:

On a road with two or more narrow lanes in your direction – like many city streets – you should ride in the middle of the…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:43:01 +1200

Yes it does.

2 Hours 23 Minutes.
;-)

James Butler

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:38:20 +1200

James, that’s really interesting. If you happen across the source for that, please do send it to me.

Source: the Internet, as always.

Umm, I'll get back to you...

Islander

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:33:25 +1200

And New York City has found that it has made everyone safer – their road injuries for all classes have reduced as a direct result of putting in their cycle paths.

I fully understand why cyclists want to ride West Coast roads. The place is beautiful, and there’s now a…

Lisa Black

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:32:32 +1200

Thanks, Alice, Jack!

James, that's really interesting. If you happen across the source for that, please do send it to me.

James Butler

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:29:24 +1200

I don’t know of any research on that angle, but I have seen some* that says drivers think cyclists are less vulnerable when wearing a helmet and so they drive closer than they do for a non-helmeted rider.

Research along similar lines is also the reason behind the "1.5m rule"…

JackElder

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:27:22 +1200

Dr Ian Walker, Bath University, 2006. And yes, that's the research where…

BenWilson

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:25:03 +1200

Yes it does.

I'll have you know that any pretty girl except my sister has been able to get it hard in seconds with only a few pumps, and can ride it as long as they can handle.

Alice Ronald

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:24:41 +1200

I think that was the same research that also found that riders who were perceived as female (eg long hair & skirt – the researcher was male & wore different clothing/items to test scenarios) were given a wider berth than normal.

I also failed to bookmark it.

Greg Dawson

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:17:32 +1200

After mucking around for ages searching for the hole, I realized all that was wrong with it was that she had not understood how to operate the hand pump...

That just sounds soo wrong...

Yes it does.

BenWilson

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:15:17 +1200

if a driver really wants to take issue with me, they're welcome to step out of the car.

A motorbiking guy I knew once crashed into the side of a car doing a stupid U-turn in front of him on a highway. He was quite badly injured, but the driver…

Lisa Black

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:10:04 +1200

Well, it's possible that helmets might lead to more accidents, as people would feel even more invulnerable.

I don't know of any research on that angle, but I have seen some* that says drivers think cyclists are less vulnerable when wearing a helmet __and so they drive closer than they…

James Butler

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 15:40:08 +1200

Well, it’s possible that helmets might lead to more accidents, as people would feel even more invulnerable.

Is anyone else thinking of the Offsetting Behaviour masthead?

Because they’re also effective against fists?

On one or two the occasions I have been yelled at by motorists for (legally) filtering between lanes…

Steve Reeves

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 15:25:08 +1200

I just shout "Peasant!".

The confused look at such an insult ("I say, are you jolly well insulting, my man???") is priceless, and the time to process means (so far) a safe getaway.

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 15:18:54 +1200

What about the bus passengers! Won’t someone please think of the passengers!

BenWilson

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 15:07:37 +1200

I know it sounds strange, and that you wouldn't get any motorists into a helmet, but it is true.

Well, it's possible that helmets might lead to more accidents, as people would feel even more invulnerable. I think that's why a lot of the safety features of racing cars are…

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 15:06:10 +1200

, motorway patrol cops–in cars–wear helmets

Maybe we could get V8 drivers and rally drivers to persuade their petrol-head fans to start wearing helmets?

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:54:18 +1200

in Japan, motorway patrol cops–in cars–wear helmets

I believe certain NZ cities plan to introduce them for bus drivers.

Kyle Matthews

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:52:00 +1200

I remember the poor kid at school who always wore one back when they weren’t compulsory, and was mocked pretty much every single day about it, usually by the kids who had cars.

That was me, except there really wasn't much mocking. I did that for about six months, and…

stephen walker

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:47:55 +1200

in Japan, motorway patrol cops--in cars--wear helmets.

cycle helmets are not compulsory in Japan.
my own observation is that in Tokyo 10 years ago, less than 5% of children wore cycle helmets (1-3%). Recently, it's maybe 20%.

James Green

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:46:38 +1200

Others do research

And this research seems very strongly contested. The stats you source are from a 1989 paper. The same authors produced a Cochrane Review on cycle helmets in 2009, but which has been criticized for including mostly their own studies. This stuff would take a long time to…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:44:01 +1200

Steve, did you even look at the page you were linking to? I do not think it means what you think it means.

Yes but I made my point badly, edited to clarify.
The point I was trying to make was that helmets are ok if you happen to fall…

Ross Mason

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:39:56 +1200

So, helmets for car passengers too?. Now who is going to get sniggered at?.

I remember a bloke in Auckland way back in the early 70s who drove around with a helmet on in his car, he insisted his passengers wore one to. He even made TV and the newspaper.…

George Darroch

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:30:12 +1200

Steve, did you even look at the page you were linking to? I do not think it means what you think it means.

ETA: It appears you are endorsing Thompson, Rivara & Thompson 1989, rather than the counter-arguments made by BHRF on that page an the rest of the site, but…

James Green

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:29:45 +1200

I often think that the main thing keeping me safe on the roads is the high cost of panelbeating; people have an abstract interest in keeping me alive, but a concrete interest in their paintwork.

My experience of cycling round Venice, Santa Monica and further inland would attest to this.…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:20:30 +1200

The safety of cycle helmets is something that people take as an article of faith.

Others do research
A case-control study of the effectiveness of bicycle safety helmets
Seven percent of the case patients were wearing helmets at the time of their head injuries, as compared with 24…

RaggedJoe

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:12:43 +1200

Hat's off to those who do cycle commute in Auckland, I am simply not brave enough. Done plenty of on and off road riding, but things like Mt Wellington hwy and Pakuranga hwy are simply to daunting.

PS: Can we please have a Coco's in NZ!!!

[(http://www.cocosvariety.com/)]

Alice Ronald

Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:11:19 +1200

Considering the ineptitude I've experienced at a local bike shop recently, it's not that surprising.