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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Southerly: New Zealand Biofuels, Part 1</title>
		<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/</link>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
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			<copyright>Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address</copyright>
			

		
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				<title>Michael  Fitzgerald</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19974#post19974</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19974#post19974</guid>
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						<p>Popped onto Ecans website today.<br />2005 Study data for Christchurch only:</p><p>124 Deaths from the smoke of home fires each winter (158 ttl).</p><p>$127 Million in costs as a result of these deaths each winter ($168 Mill ttl).</p><p>This is approximately 1 death a day for autum &amp; winter.</p><p>76% of…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jun 2007 20:35:09 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19455#post19455</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19455#post19455</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>The point is plant biology will be the answer</p></blockquote><p>I've found the next logical step for Michael's problem, we all become trees!</p><p>Back in the real world, I think Stephen has it with the balancing of supplies and needs.  Biomass, efficiency, hydro, etc will all need to be integrated in…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 16:29:28 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>stephen walker</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19314#post19314</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19314#post19314</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>The point is plant biology will be the answer</p></blockquote><p>I agree that biomass will once again become an important energy source. But the energy density of fossil fuels versus plants means we will be forced to reduce overall energy usage from here on in. All  of the energy conservation measures…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 11:29:10 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19301#post19301</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19301#post19301</guid>
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						<p>Just  comment on biofuels in general and not pellets in particular.</p><p>A huge amount of plant molecular biology is funded by the DOE in the US. Specifically to develop plants as alternative energy sources. Setting aside for the moment the corruption that has led to the use of corn as…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 09:51:10 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Michael  Fitzgerald</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19300#post19300</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19300#post19300</guid>
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						<p>What price a life?</p><p>PV  is the logical step for that pocket between the Alps and the Port Hills. It may well require huge assistance to get there but the true cost isn't being counted yet.</p><p>Once air quality, hospitalisations, and death are added to the costs PV will become…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 09:25:01 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19299#post19299</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19299#post19299</guid>
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						<p>Michael, from your arguments it sounds like we should ban free firewood &ndash; its obviously a huge source of particulates, after that we can work on the vehicles.</p><p>As for switching to electrity, please tell me where it is going to come from and how you are going to get…</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 08:40:40 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Joe Wylie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19298#post19298</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19298#post19298</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>Ancient brewery discovered on mountaintop in Peru:</p><p>. . . hot-burning llama and <strong>guinea pig dung</strong>, along with other refuse from the settlement, were used to boil water and other ingredients . . .</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=24&amp;idarticle=829" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?idCategory=24&amp;idarticle=829</a></p><p>Where's Riddley when you need him, dammit?</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 05:00:15 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>stephen walker</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19297#post19297</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19297#post19297</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>they're still omitting particles</p></blockquote><p>so CHC is gonna ban petrol and diesel vehicles?<br />Now we're talking!</p>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 03:16:12 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Michael  Fitzgerald</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19293#post19293</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19293#post19293</guid>
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						<p>The various links claim pellets are the cheapest heat. <br />This is just fraud. <br />74% of woodburners &amp; 52% of open fires use free stuff.<br />(cheers for the link David)</p><p>As good as pellets might be, they're still omitting particles and a conversion to pellets will be expensive and only delay the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 22:48:35 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>stephen walker</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19271#post19271</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19271#post19271</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>Canty air kills.</p></blockquote><p>this is an argument to ban all dodgy emissions. cars, trucks, buses, fireplaces, etc.<br />it is not an argument against wood pellets.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 16:21:00 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Michael  Fitzgerald</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19269#post19269</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19269#post19269</guid>
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						<p>Canty air kills.<br />Hidden in the bowls of ecans website (yes I can't find it right now) is a health report stating 1% of deaths and 3-5% hospitalisations of people in winter months are directly attributed to Christchurch air pollution .<br />We need to start from zero particles and I'm…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 16:07:29 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19234#post19234</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19234#post19234</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>All pollution is compliant until ruled otherwise.</p></blockquote><p>Cute soundbite, but there are urban emission standards for domestic wood burners now.<br />Why can't compliance and best practice be the same thing?  And veering back on topic, what part of the pellets will lead to disaster?</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 11:45:36 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Michael  Fitzgerald</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19222#post19222</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19222#post19222</guid>
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						<p>All pollution is compliant until ruled otherwise.<br />The arguement for compliance over best practise will lead to disaster at a slightly slower rate.</p><p>Stevens point of new markets for once 'free' goods brings up that Canty Elephant we all ignore. Free water for irrigation, exported as milk to the world…</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 10:49:46 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19212#post19212</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19212#post19212</guid>
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						All the pellet fires are emissions compliant, if you can control the fuel supply and fire design you've pretty much got the air quality problem solved.  There was some problems with wood (log) burners operating on low output and people 'de-tuning' their fires, resulting in more particulates produced;  but I…
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				<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 08:26:11 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>stephen walker</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19205#post19205</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19205#post19205</guid>
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						I think the idea of wood pellets is that, unlike any old hunk of wood, the fuel is quality assured. And apparently the pellets have a very low particulate emission level. Whether this makes them ok for mass usage in Christchurch, I assume David hass already sussed this out?
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				<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 00:15:38 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Michael  Fitzgerald</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19203#post19203</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19203#post19203</guid>
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						A prob of biomass is that the concerntration of pollution in an urban area will degrade air quality in winter months &ndash; especially in Christchurch.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 23:15:16 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Don Christie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19202#post19202</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19202#post19202</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>Saw dust would otherwise be used in the garden product industry where it will emit its carbon at a reduced rate.</p></blockquote><p>Dunno about that. I used to develop and install software in plants that cut up panels of wood for furniture. All the sawdust was burnt off on site. Usually…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 23:00:40 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>stephen walker</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19192#post19192</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19192#post19192</guid>
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						<p>Great post again, David.</p><p>Just throught that I would point out that energy yield ratio is often referred to as EROEI (energy return on energy invested).</p><p>[<strong>REPLY:</strong> __Thanks, Stephen.  I'm kind of randomly bilingual between EYR &amp; EROEI.  There's probably some rule about which one to use in a given situation…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 17:02:18 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Jeremy Andrew</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19188#post19188</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19188#post19188</guid>
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						But do you use your heat pump in reverse in summer to cool the place down? If so, there's another stack of power use from the pump, while the heater is tucked away in the cupboard for the season. OTOH, how much power does my ceiling fan use?
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 16:43:36 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>David Haywood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19187#post19187</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19187#post19187</guid>
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						<p><strong>Andrew:</strong></p><p>This is drifting away from the topic of this discussion, but BRANZ seems to pull through some quite strange assumptions from their thermal modelling results.</p><p>For example, BRANZ seems to assume that you need two heat-pumps worth $5000 (in total) for a house like mine.  In reality, I have…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 16:37:50 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19178#post19178</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19178#post19178</guid>
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						Please excuse my spelling, I'm an engineer.
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 15:43:24 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19177#post19177</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19177#post19177</guid>
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						<p>The devil is in the details when it comes to methodology used in studies.  But when the proponent of a technology has glowing (pardon the pun) findings and an independant consumer advocate has another view then I start to get sceptical.</p><p>The cost comparison of panel heater and heat pumps…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 15:41:43 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>David Haywood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19175#post19175</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19175#post19175</guid>
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						<p><strong>Andrew:</strong></p><p>Sorry, I was writing at top speed and somehow pulled the wrong title through from my spreadsheet &mdash; that'll teach me to double-check my links before I post (I've corrected the report name in my original reply).</p><p>Yes, as you point out, this does give rather a dramatic illustration…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 15:06:08 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19168#post19168</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19168#post19168</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>Kyle: I think those were firelogs, a different thing (and more expensive then pellets)</p></blockquote><p>Dammit. Apparently not everyone gets a bargain.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 14:00:55 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19158#post19158</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19158#post19158</guid>
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						I can't see the methodology for the Consumer results, but it is fuel and not total cost based. Adding in the other factors for a total cost of ownership would give a significantly different result &ndash; on this basis heat pumps are more expensive then plain electric panel heaters.  Average…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 12:46:32 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19145#post19145</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19145#post19145</guid>
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						At my previous house, where I had a potbelly, I used to buy a dark greeny grey cylindrical log, which games in boxes of 6 or 8 from the warehouse. I used them to get things going with the fire before moving onto coal as they caught fire well and…
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 11:49:52 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>David Haywood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19135#post19135</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19135#post19135</guid>
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						<p><strong>Andrew:</strong></p><p>George is still getting back to me on a number for the energy yield ratio (obviously he didn't make it in time for the programme).  I'll post an update as soon as I hear back.</p><p>In terms of the relative cost of wood pellets, I was going by the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 11:26:00 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19125#post19125</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19125#post19125</guid>
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						<p>Good story David, we tend to overlook firewood as a bio fuel in favour of the oil replacements.  The BRANZ HEEP study said something like that another Huntly power station would be needed if all solid fuel heating went electric.</p><p>I did notice that George never did get around to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 10:08:18 +1200</pubDate>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19124#post19124</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-new-zealand-biofuels-part-1/?p=19124#post19124</guid>
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						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 28 May 2007 10:08:18 +1200</pubDate>
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