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		<title>Public Address | Cafe | Southerly: Energy Special, Part 3: Energy Crisis in the Roman Empire</title>
		<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/</link>
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		<description><![CDATA[A talking shop where we put the questions and our community illuminates the issues.]]></description>
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			<copyright>Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address</copyright>
			

		
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31993#post31993</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31993#post31993</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>why has China (one of the greatest engineering nations throughout history) stayed with the chopstick when the population eats so much rice.</p></blockquote><p>I believe this one is to frustrate non-Chinese people who like Chinese food and think they should eat it the traditional way.</p><p>They of course don't necessarily abandon…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 16:14:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Haywood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31972#post31972</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31972#post31972</guid>
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						<p>Apologies for falling behind on questions in this thread... our bad baby (good on the inside, of course) has kept me away from my computer for anything except deadlines...</p><p><strong>Andrew Stevenson</strong> wrote:</p><blockquote><p>... any other reference points for sources of slavery (energy) runs out and empire/entity contracts?</p></blockquote><p>As Anarchangel points…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:12:35 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31824#post31824</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31824#post31824</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>But that movie 'Who killed the electric car?' was interesting viewing.</p></blockquote><p>I'm a big fan of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">connections</a> series which explored the relationships between technologies over time and the neat ways one discovery can trigger something apparently unrelated.</p><p>I think the above is the other side of that coin. As…</p>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:58:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31587#post31587</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31587#post31587</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>And no I don't subscribe to the secret water powered engines that big car companies have withheld :).</p></blockquote><p>I don't either.</p><p>But that movie 'Who killed the electric car?' was interesting viewing.</p>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:42:31 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ben Austin</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31502#post31502</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31502#post31502</guid>
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						<p>Still looking for a link, but till then you can all learn about ham.</p><p><a href="http://www.common-place.org/vol-08/no-01/shields/ " target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer"> Delicious Ham</a></p>
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				<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 00:10:06 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>daleaway</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31492#post31492</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31492#post31492</guid>
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						<p>Aah, but don't people/nations choose their institutions according to their character?  Institutions don't grow from bare ground.</p><p>And didn't nations derive from alliances of tribes (at the time of which we speak), and tribes derive from family groupings?  </p><p>How deep do you want to go? I've a hunch that DNA's…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:01:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Malcolm</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31491#post31491</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31491#post31491</guid>
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						Ooops.  Hit Post Reply instead of preview.  The second part of my post was meant for the later comment.  The key thing I was really trying to say was that I prefer explanations in terms of institutions to explanations in terms of character.  Not that I deny character is important,…
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				<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:51:03 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Malcolm</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31488#post31488</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31488#post31488</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>I think it's safe to say that ideas of moral decline as the basis for the collapse of the Western Empire have been left in the early twentieth century.</p></blockquote><p>I don't mean moral decline in terms of alcholism, sex and cruelty.  The point I'm trying to make is a bit…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:45:16 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Anarchangel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31486#post31486</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31486#post31486</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>However, perhaps slavery and conquest also engendered a moral corruption that undermined their moral and institutional virtue.</p></blockquote><p>I think it's safe to say that ideas of moral decline as the basis for the collapse of the Western Empire have been left in the early twentieth century.</p><blockquote><p>How adaptable were the…</p></blockquote>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 16:16:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Anarchangel</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31485#post31485</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31485#post31485</guid>
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						<blockquote>There will have been other cultures that used slavery and then had the supply cut off. The one that leaps to mind is the US, or rather the confederacy. But this has technological changes as well, I seem to recall the invention of the cotton gin (its a [slave] labour…</blockquote>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:58:44 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>daleaway</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31481#post31481</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31481#post31481</guid>
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						<p>Really enjoyed  the transcript. Thank you.</p><p>For some reason it made me remember Joan Didion's "Where I was From" in which she contemplates why California is the way it is. Settled by people who were not used to staying put and solving problems, but whose solution was always to cut…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:36:55 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>john shears</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31468#post31468</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31468#post31468</guid>
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						<p>Thanks for that very interesting instalment David.</p><p>Sorry to hear about the pride and joy having a hard time , I think I have mentioned before that the first 21 years are the worst .</p><p>Re slaves the most recent example must of course be Russia &amp; the Soviet Union. The…</p>
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				<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 07:42:31 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Malcolm</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31462#post31462</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31462#post31462</guid>
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						<p>Well, I really liked that podcast.  Thanks. And here's my certified theory about the fall of the Roman Empire ...</p><p>Ultimately, the Roman empire fell because they lost the battle of Adrianople, when the Goths wiped out the Roman field army.  But the interesting thing is that Rome had suffered…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:53:02 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31415#post31415</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31415#post31415</guid>
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						<p>I'd say it's more that we don't care about the efficiency or energy use of a vehicle/appliance.</p><p>Like Amory Lovins said, people care about cold beer, not the energy needed to run the fridge.</p><p>People rank the factors like capital cost, running costs, appearance, fitness for purpose, street cred etc…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 16:13:17 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31407#post31407</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31407#post31407</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>Actually, for certain tasks &ndash; fast, ad-hoc travel over a distance &ndash; the car is a fantastic tool.</p></blockquote><p>Good call.  I guess what I was getting at is that there have been a lot of (sometimes small) innovations that could improve the efficiency of cars which are not taken up…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 15:48:23 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>rodgerd</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31386#post31386</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31386#post31386</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>The parallels with late 20th century technology are easy to observe. Internal combustion of gasoline is not the most technologically advanced use of energy, particularly in the form of the car (especially the SUV:)).</p></blockquote><p>Actually, for certain tasks &ndash; fast, ad-hoc travel over a distance &ndash; the car is a…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:23:50 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>rodgerd</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31383#post31383</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31383#post31383</guid>
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						<blockquote>I remember my classics teacher at varsity showing us an early steam engine they'd found in excavations from the Hellenic Egyptian period &ndash; it was used to make a circle of toy dolphins spin round. I think they used steam in temples to make doors mysteriously open and close, too,…</blockquote>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:16:19 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Bart Janssen</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31374#post31374</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31374#post31374</guid>
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						<p>Thanks for the transcript &ndash; I was starting to wonder.</p><p>A comment on steam power. While steam power was known, the problem with it was the quality of the metals used for boilers. Steam engines need boilers that can tolerate high pressure and temperature and metalurgy just wasn't up to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:50:43 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>dyan campbell</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31360#post31360</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31360#post31360</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>That child has a very, very, impressive squalling howl, with a terribly distressing top note of anguish. You should mark it NSFW. You should also market it, for car alarms.</p><p>Colic? Reflux?</p></blockquote><p>A paediatrician at Starship once told me said he was forever giving new parents earplugs... he said they…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:13:22 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31347#post31347</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31347#post31347</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>Intersting interpretation, any other reference points for sources of slavery (energy) runs out and empire/entity contracts?</p></blockquote><p>I'm trying to remember if one of the examples in Diamond's book focused on slavery. I'd need to look through it to check, having read it a whole year ago, it's been wiped from…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:14:09 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31346#post31346</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31346#post31346</guid>
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						<p>Thanks for that David. I'm not a student of the Roman Empire, or its rise and fall, so I couldn't comment on its correctness or vice versa, just found the angle interesting and wondered as to its source. If you're the source, well that's all good.</p><blockquote><p>An interesting theory David.…</p></blockquote>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:10:51 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31342#post31342</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31342#post31342</guid>
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						Technological solution for howling, class 5 ear muffs.  You can still hear and attend, but the soul piercing component that makes you want to scream yourself is gone...
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:57:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Andrew Stevenson</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31341#post31341</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31341#post31341</guid>
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						<p>Intersting interpretation, any other reference points for sources of slavery (energy) runs out and empire/entity contracts?  </p><p>There will have been other cultures that used slavery and then had the supply cut off.  The one that leaps to mind is the US, or rather the confederacy.  But this has technological changes…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:52:48 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ben Austin</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31340#post31340</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31340#post31340</guid>
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						David, the most recent example that I can think of is sci fi &ndash; so perhaps not the scholarly work that would give me credibility. Now I am desperately trying to remember (while drunk) the name of a 1960s author who wrote this particular book of short stories. It might…
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:47:37 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Emma Hart</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31337#post31337</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31337#post31337</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>On the other hand, I think (without claiming too much) that it is mildly interesting and mildly informative to look at history through the lens of energy. But, of course, as a former energy engineer, I would think that...</p></blockquote><p>Which is exactly why it's so gosh-darned interesting, because specialists in…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:45:57 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Deborah</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31336#post31336</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31336#post31336</guid>
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						<blockquote><p>Colic and reflux and cow's milk protein allergy, poor chap. He's really had a tough start.</p></blockquote><p>And so have his parents...</p><p>It's not so much the philosophy, as the nutter* I live with, who reads classics just for fun, and is inclined to sit and watch swords and sandals films…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:42:30 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Haywood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31335#post31335</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31335#post31335</guid>
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						<p><strong>Ben Austin</strong> wrote:</p><blockquote><p>Interesting theory, I've seen it alluded to here and there but not to that degree.</p></blockquote><p>Our posts seemed to have overlapped &mdash; fascinating info! Would you be able to direct me to where this interpretation is discussed elsewhere &mdash; I'd be <em>very</em> interested... (and marks off to…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:37:38 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>David Haywood</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31334#post31334</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31334#post31334</guid>
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						<p><strong>Kyle Matthews</strong> wrote:</p><blockquote><p>... where's the evidence that 'slave energy limits' was a prime factor? Is this something that anyone else has theorised on? I note no footnotes in that crucial point.</p></blockquote><p>I've talked this interpretation (I wouldn't go as far as to say 'theory' &mdash; except in an ironic…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:26:42 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Deborah</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31333#post31333</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31333#post31333</guid>
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						<p>That child has a very, very, impressive squalling howl, with a terribly distressing top note of anguish.  You should mark it NSFW.  You should also market it, for car alarms.</p><p>Colic?  Reflux?</p><p>The piece on the decline and fall of the Roman empire is also impressive.</p><p>Didn't one of the…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:26:13 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Joe Wylie</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31332#post31332</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31332#post31332</guid>
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						So &ndash; as long as it remains cheaper to get a kilowatt-hour from a wallsocket than it does from a slave, we're safe from slavery?
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:21:26 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Ben Austin</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31331#post31331</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31331#post31331</guid>
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						Interesting theory, I've seen it alluded to here and there but not to that degree. There seems to be a fair bit of "wotif" Roman scifi about these days too, on a vaguely related note.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:19:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Che Tibby</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31329#post31329</link>
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						<blockquote><p>An interesting theory David. I had never thought previously about people as a form of energy &ndash; it felt wrong.</p></blockquote><p>i'm not so sure. from my distant study of classics (undergrad), it was slavery that prevented both the hellenes and the romans from developing machinery.</p><p>they couldn't see past slavery…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:35:54 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>rodgerd</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31327#post31327</link>
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						I personally find the decline of the Roman Empire is kind of a Rorsharch test for people.  It tells you more about what they think than the actual causes.
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:22:04 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Kyle Matthews</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31325#post31325</link>
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						<p>An interesting theory David. I had never thought previously about people as a form of energy &ndash; it felt wrong.</p><p>You jumped very quickly from 'running out of slaves' to 'empire had to contract to sustainable levels'. I know you did this a while ago, but where's the evidence that…</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:13:27 +1300</pubDate>
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				<title>Public Address</title>
				<link>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31324#post31324</link>
				<guid>https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/southerly-energy-special-part-3-energy-crisis/?p=31324#post31324</guid>
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						<p>Discussion from blog post.</p>
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				<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:13:27 +1300</pubDate>
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