Public Address | Cafe | Southerly: A Tale of Two Iceblocks: Part 1 (Or How Analysis of Greenhouse Gas Emissions in New Zealand Can Cause Us To Do the Wrong Thing)

Brent Jackson

Mon, 01 Aug 2016 13:51:17 +1200

Thanks for that Moz. According to that we should have the panel at 33 degrees for maximum annual solar input with a fixed panel. But as you say that is not what we should be trying to maximise. What we want is sufficient hot water all summer, extended as far…

Moz

Mon, 01 Aug 2016 10:22:57 +1200

Lost my reply, FFS.

was shown a convincing graph of the efficiency based on angle

Was that the misleading raw output one or the seasonal output graph that actually matters? Until you can save the excess hot water from summer to use in the winter, it doesn't matter how much…

Brent Jackson

Sun, 31 Jul 2016 16:45:41 +1200

When we had our solar hot water installed (an Edwards LX305 in 2004), I asked about increasing the angle of the panels, and was shown a convincing graph of the efficiency based on angle, and basically the efficiency does not fall off all that rapidly. Basically, if your panel is…

Moz

Sun, 31 Jul 2016 12:42:48 +1200

composting lavatory

We have one in the shed, packed away, because I never really solved the vinegar fly problem to my partner's satisfaction, and with six people we really do need the second toilet working all the time. The "toilet room" is big enough to fit the composting toilet in…

Moz

Sun, 31 Jul 2016 12:36:56 +1200

Solar City

Over here that name is one used by a succession of phoenixing solar scammers, IIRC. www.whirlpool.net.au is a geek forum with a useful green sub-board for that stuff.

Over here they just charge you if you want tilt rails, and most companies will do it if you ask.…

Alfie

Sun, 31 Jul 2016 12:27:31 +1200

Solar City, who have taken over the sales are, are … hopeless (in my experience.)

I was speaking with a local Solar City installer last week who told me they've been instructed to flat mount all panels to save money. So instead of lifting the rear of panels by mounting…

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 31 Jul 2016 06:36:05 +1200

My (small & homebuilt) PV system as well as my wind turbine have been sitting in the loft of my workshop since the earthquakes. Quite unforgivable, I’m afraid.
Totally forgivable – it's good to have 'lofty aspirations'...
;- )

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 31 Jul 2016 06:28:20 +1200

the body electrick…
I’m in inner-city Sydney wondering why my internet connection is so awful today. Ditto the different provider cellphone internet. First world problems… but it does remind me why I want to be grid-agnostic for electricity.
We (the planet) may still be in the tail end of a…

David Haywood

Sun, 31 Jul 2016 05:02:50 +1200

with a headline David might like “can save you money, but only in very specific circumstances”.

Oh dear, you're quite right. This should probably be written on my tombstone.

Very impressed by your energy efficiency Moz and Rob. Post solar water heating we're down to about 14 kWh per day.…

Moz

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 19:59:12 +1200

Batteries are still not ready for mass market, that's for sure. But realistically, because they need care and feeding bigger ones with full-time staff are likely to be better. Same was as I have a driver take me to work when I don't ride – the days when even the…

Rob Stowell

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 19:14:38 +1200

I looked at the specs on the Tesla powerwall. It’s a very expensive battery bank. Sadly lead acid still stores more watts for the dollar – although the specs weren’t that clear on how many cycles (they give a big range – to be fair, lead acid are like that…

Moz

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 18:27:39 +1200

Gizmodo Oz has a review of the Tesla Powerwall with a headline David might like "can save you money, but only in very specific circumstances". They also go into opportunity cost/time value of money at the end, which is nice.

Some Oz solar thermal hot water systems used to dump…

Lilith __

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 16:34:46 +1200

EDIT: I’m sure this is quite unnecessary to mention, but do use a header pipe on the hot water cylinder of your solar hot water system so that it’s vented to atmosphere. Be a pity to build a steam bomb rather than a water heater.

Gah!
Another is not to…

Rob Stowell

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 15:47:36 +1200

Thermocell also had (when I last had anything to do with them) very skilled technicians at design and installation.
Nick Williamson (Arthur's son) is still involved – a great guy – but more in the manufacture. Solar City, who have taken over the sales are, are ... hopeless (in my…

Moz

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 15:16:46 +1200

We are now effectively getting free hot water to the value of over $1,000 per year

We use a total of about $200 of hot water a year, which drastically affects the value of any of these systems. At 8c/kWh off peak and 4-8kWh a day of consumption, it was…

Alfie

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 13:17:50 +1200

When we were planning our PV install we looked at adding solar hot water. The wisdom these days is that you’re better off putting in a slightly larger inverter and adding a few more panels at around $220-250 each. Obviously that only applies when you’re already installing a PV system.…

David Haywood

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 11:10:33 +1200

I just arrived back home with a six year old vacuum tube solar hot water system.

This will almost certainly be an example of the heat-pipe solar hot water that I mentioned earlier, Steven. I’ve heard good reports on some of the Chinese systems of this type.

On the PV…

David Haywood

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 09:39:53 +1200

This PV-based solar hot water system would certainly get around the problems associated with grid-connected PV (in that supply and demand don’t match)…

To expand on that: the supply curve from a PV system is like the hump of a dromedary camel; the demand curve of the electricity network is…

David Haywood

Sat, 30 Jul 2016 09:26:13 +1200

Disappointingly, Consumer says they’re not great. Too costly for too little benefit.

As Moz says, the issue with the consumer report (which cites other studies) is the “on average” bit.

I know a bit about solar hot water systems: there is difficulty (and hence expense) in retrofitting them to existing…

Lilith __

Fri, 29 Jul 2016 23:35:20 +1200

Because almost all solar water heaters lose energy on cold cloudy days, and much of NZ’s land area has those for half the year.

They shouldn't lose energy, any more than a wetback will when the fire's not on — flow into the heater is controlled by valves.

Consumer points…

Moz

Fri, 29 Jul 2016 23:23:11 +1200

One point to keep in mind is that most of NZ's population lives in Auckland, so there is a big difference between "most people" and "most land/most towns/most houses". If you restrict discussion of solar to "Auckland and points north" the numbers look much better. Not good, but better.

why…

Lilith __

Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:46:38 +1200

Disappointingly, Consumer says they're not great. Too costly for too little benefit.

Lilith __

Fri, 29 Jul 2016 17:06:24 +1200

So, I was just talking about why does everybody not have hot-water-heating solar panels and my sister pointed out that our neighbour does. This is apparently what they look like!

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 29 Jul 2016 08:00:21 +1200

Ice has a rich literary heritage as well
who can forget the slush the Trask's trainload of lettuces became when their Ice-packed carriages got held up by snow then sidetracked in a Chicago heatwave ( East of Eden, John Steinbeck) ]]
or Fat Boy the ice machine in Paul Theroux's __The…

Alfie

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 21:22:12 +1200

Substituting battery storage with a large UPS and keeping it seperate from the mains supply was actually Moz's idea, and it's a damn good one. ;-)

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 20:30:46 +1200

There has been interest in the electricity profession in enabling islanding (which normally refers to multiple connection points rather than a single house) – e.g. this paper: http://vbn.aau.dk/files/19638822/Publication in order to improve network resilience. I thought that was what you were about.

However, your idea, which is basically engineering your…

Alfie

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 11:40:52 +1200

If your local substation trips, then a small number of inverters will try and drive all the local loads – which they obviously can’t do, so they’ll go into a trip/restart cycle, which might break stuff.

As Moz says, that ain't gonna happen. Our solar system is grid-tied and while…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:45:45 +1200

This was a genuine trick employed for icecube production in colonial India (apparently it was one of the big spreaders of typhoid amongst the elite).

I believe the Egyptian Pharaohs got their ice the same way (maybe even their typhoid ...)

Moz

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:17:36 +1200

If your local substation trips, then a small number of inverters will try and drive all the local loads

No, no, no, that would be insane and dangerous. I can't imagine anyone certifying an inverter that does what you're suggesting. The idea is that you mechanically switch so you're isolated…

David Haywood

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 06:31:36 +1200

True as, forgot latent heat. But yes, making the ice blocks in the day and leaving them out at night would work in many climates.

This was a genuine trick employed for icecube production in colonial India (apparently it was one of the big spreaders of typhoid amongst the elite).…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 05:38:19 +1200

True as, forgot latent heat. But yes, making the ice blocks in the day and leaving them out at night would work in many climates.

linger

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 23:55:14 +1200

zero-energy iceblocks in winterPretty sure that method won’t lead to any major energy saving: either you’re pumping liquid water, in which case the energy needed to then actually freeze it is of the same order as that needed to cool it from 25°C to 0°C, or else you’re trying to…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 23:03:17 +1200

I think the problem with islanding is not so much worker safety (as you state, electricity network techs are trained to treat all circuits as live at all times) as problems of restart and load.

If your local substation trips, then a small number of inverters will try and drive…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 22:49:38 +1200

Total digression, but something just occurred to me about HFO-1234yf.

When CCl4 was widely used in the home, a noted hazard was that if you smoked whilst using it (the sixties were the sort of time when you could work with one carcinogen whilst deliberately inhaling another), it would be…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 22:37:26 +1200

Also, you could maybe make near zero-energy iceblocks in winter in somewhere like northern Manchuria (or indeed the Mackenzie basin) by pumping input water from the zero degree layers of a semi-frozen reservoir?

Lilith __

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 15:54:19 +1200

solar thermal for hot water production

I remember having some quite acceptable washes under one of those "solar shower" things you can take camping. (essentially a black plastic bladder you fill with water and lay in a sunny spot). Admittedly, that was summer, and one has lower standards when camping,…

David Haywood

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 15:35:00 +1200

Could it ever be feasible for each house to have a thermal-solar system on the roof to heat the hot water?

Sorry Lilith – hasn’t realized you were asking about CSP (my earlier answer referred to solar thermal for hot water production)…

Lilith __

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 15:17:57 +1200

In terms of resource consumption, CSP isn’t too bad (PV is one of the worst) – not sure how effective it would be in NZ except for a few special areas in summer.

Could it ever be feasible for each house to have a thermal-solar system on the roof to…

Shaun Barker

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 10:56:00 +1200

In the question you asked above about concentrated solar power (solar thermal). This data was compiled by Vidal et al (Nature Geoscience, 2013, attempted link here to their supplementary data. In terms of resource consumption, CSP isn't too bad (PV is one of the worst) – not sure how effective…

Moz

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 10:16:56 +1200

Photovoltaics (grid-connected) don’t make much sense from an energy engineering perspective in New Zealand either

Well no, when your existing electricity supply is largely renewable the maximum possible GHG savings are negligible. I feared for a second it was another of the misleading calculations that we see so many of…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 08:53:34 +1200

Yeah it is pretty clear that NZ the best thing to do would be switch the bulk of our transport to electricity since that would convert gasoline use into (renewable) electricity use. Bearing in mind the energy costs of building new cars.

But there are two things about solar electricity…

David Haywood

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 04:58:26 +1200

In response to the question asked by Steven Crawford, above – the analysis of the net benefit (or otherwise) of solar power (photovoltaics) in NZ has been done – in it’s current form solar has little or negative GHG benefit in NZ if a lifecycle analysis is done (published by…

David Haywood

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 04:57:33 +1200

How does that compare with solar thermal? I’m guessing the storage problem is the same, but are the manufacturing issues any better?

With solar thermal the energy is stored as hot water in your tank — it's a whole different kettle of fish (a much better kettle) from an energy…

Lilith __

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 22:03:18 +1200

analysis of the net benefit (or otherwise) of solar power (photovoltaics) in NZ has been done

How does that compare with solar thermal? I'm guessing the storage problem is the same, but are the manufacturing issues any better?

Shaun Barker

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 21:24:51 +1200

Lilith __

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 18:03:36 +1200

in the last paragraph here I’m starting to sound like my anarchist Glaswegian grandfather!

It's OK, we'll notice if you start calling for the imprisonment of all dry-cleaners.

Moz

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 15:16:15 +1200

Two phrases I find myself saying more and more often are {1} and {2} and {3} and {4: mathematically challenged}

QED?

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 13:52:16 +1200

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/82489016/solarpowered-plane-circles-globe-returns-to-uae

Bart Janssen

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 13:48:13 +1200

Two phrases I find myself saying more and more often are

unintended consequences
and
confirmation bias
and
unconscious biases
and
mathematically challenged

Bart Janssen

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 13:43:25 +1200

“shower helmets”

lol

David Haywood

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 13:01:22 +1200

For the technically minded, the 3rd Edition of the New Zealand Energy Handbook is a good resource describing our country’s energy resources

Cheers, Mike — I should have thought to mention that myself...

David Haywood

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 12:56:23 +1200

I’m struggling not to engage with the helmet discussion, but I might just point out that the whole issue of safety is fraught with surprises and counter-intuitive results. You can make an intersection safer by reducing visibility; workers can have accidents because they’re wearing safety vests (and therefore think that…

Mike O'Connell

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 12:41:49 +1200

then load them on a ship and send them for vast distances across the ocean to India and China. How is that even viable?!
Lilith, it isn't! As David has outlined with the iceblocks, the emission counting system will count those burnt coal emissions in the GHG profiles China, India…

Moz

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:39:05 +1200

I may be slightly biased, as I’ve personally walked away from a few cycle vs. car [and subsequent tarmac vs. head] crashes, partly thanks to wearing a helmet.

Helmets are another population issue, not a personal one. It is almost certainly true that if you are someone who will ride…

Moz

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:29:56 +1200

My version of fun normally involves building stuff, ideally building stuff to solve a practical problem. Put me in the workshop, ask me to make something, I'm happy. Sustainability in the workshop generally means having someone who's covering the costs and more importantly, taking away whatever I make. Otherwise it…

linger

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:28:32 +1200

On the bike helmet law – even if no statistically proven effect on adult safety, there are subtler effects to consider, e.g. are children more or less likely to wear helmets if adults have to too? vs. other behavioural factors like the tendency for riders wearing helmets to feel safer,…

Moz

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:28:28 +1200

abstinence has got to be fun to be sustainable

This is something I struggle to understand. To me, living in a warm, comfortable house is a good thing, and it's something I'd be willing to pay for. The idea that I can have a warm, comfy house that's cheaper is…

Moz

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:04:48 +1200

Ultimately a system of international GHG traceability on goods and services would solve numerous problems. This would work in a similar manner to the

... contamination tracking that dairy already use. We already have a system that allows annoyed customers or their next of kin to find out exactly where…

David Haywood

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 09:12:36 +1200

While I understand the point of your popsicle example, that the economics is wrong, I disagree with the solution.

Thank you for expanding on your earlier comment, Bart.

I don't think we disagree on the solution: I agree that the best solution would be a binding global agreement as per…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 08:59:20 +1200

To bloody right, helmets law has no place in science or accountancy.

Next you'll be asking us to believe in statistics

Bart Janssen

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 08:55:32 +1200

Alas that – obviously – you can’t just drop sunlight and wind as replacement fuels in a coal thermal plant (or even to directly replace coal thermal plants with wind and solar). So there are billions upon billions of dollars of equipment and grid connections worldwide that can’t be replaced…

David Haywood

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 06:02:09 +1200

Las Vegas is a town built on betting, especially when the odds are stacked towards the ‘House’.

That may explain it!

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 05:57:44 +1200

“Oh okay, we won’t do that then.”
Las Vegas is a town built on betting, especially when the odds are stacked towards the 'House'.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 05:54:08 +1200

coasting to barbarism...
Are we grown-up enough to work together to save ourselves?
...and there lies the tipping point question for humanity's choices 'going forward' – it dwells at the heart of 'Trump or Clinton?', 'National or Labour/Greens'?, 'Help or Hinder?'...

David Haywood

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 05:52:16 +1200

How so?

Oh Lord, why did I mention this (an even touchier subject than anthropogenic climate change)…

So one of the state legislators in Nevada was keen on encouraging cycling in Las Vegas so as to reduce fossil fuel consumption, local emissions, traffic congestion, etc. as well as the public…

David Haywood

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 05:34:49 +1200

Does anybody have carbon costs for refrigerated shipping, btw? I know it’s beside the point, but numbers are fun.

I can't point you to anything recent (my post-earthquake attempts to keep up with the literature have been very tightly focussed), but you'll probably find something in Prof Saunders's body of…

David Haywood

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 05:18:13 +1200

Another angle would be to organise international pricing for certain products. Then we wouldn’t have to refund the PGST on exports. Fonterra’s website suggests that 7 countries produced 84% of dairy exports in 2014. Could we stitch up a deal with them? Has anybody even thought of trying?

The politics…

David Haywood

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 05:00:52 +1200

I don’t claim to understand how it works, but there is a process for making steel without coke or carbon emissions.

Yes, I've been following this development (Sadoway is one of the rock stars of the materials science world). It works by using electrical energy as the input to split…

M Thomas

Tue, 26 Jul 2016 02:23:19 +1200

If you rode a bicycle in Las Vegas then you have me (partially) to thank for not having to wear a helmet.

How so?

Lilith __

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 23:47:53 +1200

I don't claim to understand how it works, but there is a process for making steel without coke or carbon emissions.

Joe Wylie

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 23:45:52 +1200

...then load them on a ship and send them for vast distances across the ocean to India and China. How is that even viable?!
Economists know things that physicists and climate scientists don't. For example, in India and China there are these magic chimneys. Whatever travels up those somehow manages…

Lilith __

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 21:57:35 +1200

I imagine a Gary Larson drawing of alien scientists viewing post global-climate-change Earth and crossing "Big brains" off their list of "Good ideas".

Lilith __

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 21:45:54 +1200

When I lived in Woolston by the railway line I would hear the coal trains rumbling past to Lyttelton, then rattling back empty. I used to ponder how peculiar it was to dig up bits of ground on the West Coast and load them on a train going across the…

st ephen

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 21:11:22 +1200

I think it's recognised that the Kyoto Protocol (and therefore the ETS) doesn't make any sense if there are parts of the world outside the system. China does at least report its emissions under the UNFCCC, so we do get to see the ice block manufacturing emissions even if they…

Martin Roberts

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 20:52:34 +1200

Does anybody have carbon costs for refrigerated shipping, btw? I know it's beside the point, but numbers are fun. My wife would also be happy to add that data to her household footprint spreadsheet.

Martin Roberts

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 20:43:52 +1200

Your criteria 2 and 3 are within our own power, but I like your idea of approximating the 1st criteria with an import levy. The politics of applying a suitable price without succumbing to accusations of trade barriers could be tricky. Even if you had to concede say 10% undercharging…

linger

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 20:11:44 +1200

I just feel like weepingthat's the tragedy of the co₂mmons for you.

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 19:51:32 +1200

We also get absurdities like Australia producing huge amounts of coal, but since it’s largely exported as coal it doesn’t count as greenhouse gas emissions. But when Australia stupidly burns the stuff to make iron, steel or aluminium, that counts as emissions. When the end product is sold, that doesn’t…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 19:36:41 +1200

In a rational world we’d have banned high carbon emitting activities and solved the problem. But this time we let some accountants into the room and they came up with all these exciting formulas and theories about how they could use economics to solve the problem.

The result is your…

Moz

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 18:22:52 +1200

You know, let's just focus on measuring the scale of the problem for now, shall we.

Moz

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 18:16:45 +1200

But this time we let some accountants into the room and they came up with all these exciting formulas and theories about how they could use economics to solve the problem.

I'm going to talk about Australia because it's easier for me. NZ *had* an almost entirely renewable electricity system,…

John Farrell

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 17:04:46 +1200

Telephone sanitisers as well?

Bart Janssen

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 16:33:34 +1200

So back a few decades scientists figured out we were screwing up our atmosphere by emitting CFCs which were destroying ozone in the upper atmosphere and if we did nothing we'd all be fried to a crisp – actually we'd starve first because our crops would die.

The solution was…

Brent Jackson

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:31:27 +1200

If everyone did then we could solve practically all of society’s problems.

Imagine …

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:20:02 +1200

various Act leaders and farmers have made the argument about sending production to dirtier climes offshore.

Yes, although unfortunately their arguments are usually accompanied by the “New Zealand is too small to make any difference, so let’s not do anything” fallacy.

Ultimately anywhere can be broken down into an area…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:11:01 +1200

a C O' grief...
Local taxes only make sense if the damage done can be kept local – as the atmosphere is a global phenomena a globally uniform solution is required and tax ain’t the answer, a massive paradigm shift is…
I recommend Paolo Bacigalupi’s debut novel The Windup Girl…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:07:24 +1200

[*A carbon tax isn’t just – or even primarily? – aimed at consumers, but at producers, too, of course. Isn’t it possible that the NZ iceblock manufacturer will (in response to a carbon tax) even further reduce their dirty energy consumption, install a wind generator, avoid any carbon tax at…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:00:33 +1200

It seems that the word ‘stoush’ applies primarily in New Zealand and Australia and appears to be derived from the Scottish word stooshie. And your spelling was correct David.
Apologies – Och! My Caledonian ancestors will be rolling in their graves and tumbling in their tumuli – I see 'stushie'…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 12:48:16 +1200

To address the policy issue: it wouldn’t be a problem if the countries we imported from also put a price on carbon. Then the cost would be built right in.

Exactly.

For imports from countries without such pricing, a border carbon tax is justified.

That's the appeal of modifying GST…

Lyndon Hood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 12:01:30 +1200

I don't recall hearing the import side but various Act leaders and farmers have made the argument about sending production to dirtier climes offshore. So David has not been alone here all this time.

Rob Stowell

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:51:48 +1200

I think you’re onto it Ian. Part of the point of a carbon tax is to signal to the world that we are serious about reducing carbon – so hey, how about you? Price signals to consumers* are one part of the project – but only one part. International signalling…

Idiot Savant

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:31:23 +1200

To address the policy issue: it wouldn't be a problem if the countries we imported from also put a price on carbon. Then the cost would be built right in.

For imports from countries without such pricing, a border carbon tax is justified.

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:04:39 +1200

I know that there was a team looking at exactly my example above for NZ before the earthquakes 2009. But I'm on a very old computer here (with actual brontosaurus damage, I think), and I can't find the results.

If anyone can locate them then I'd be grateful if they…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 10:59:40 +1200

I didn’t really want to post these charts since the one on the right is very approximate. This is a ball-park analysis that I did in 2009 quickly updated for the 2014 year. The intention of the analysis was to show a ballpark figure for GHGs embodied in imports, and…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 10:16:16 +1200

I’d just like to re-assure you, David, that at least one person out here understands what you did, and is pleased to have been educated on why taxing carbon is a tricky problem.

Cheers, Brent! I think that brings my total to about four people in maybe 18 years (I…

Brent Jackson

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 10:07:13 +1200

Alfie wrote:
… surely the Chinese block travelling thousands of kilometres to market whilst remaining frozen also increases its total emissions
Yes, of course. But as David keeps re-iterating in his comments, the details of the ice-block are irrelevant. The ice-block is merely an example, to show how taxing carbon…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 10:04:40 +1200

There’s the modern idea to mitigate some of the cost.

There are certainly some fascinating plans along these lines, Steven (a case where I had underestimated human ingenuity in the past)…

My own memory of the Hoover Dam relates to my intention for an un-American walk along the top. A…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 09:42:01 +1200

It seems that the word ‘stoush’ applies primarily in New Zealand and Australia and appears to be derived from the Scottish word stooshie. And your spelling was correct David.

Thanks, Alfie – very interesting!

While appreciating your desire for ice block simplicity, surely the Chinese block travelling thousands of kilometres…

Alfie

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 09:31:03 +1200

was stoush or stooshie (sp?) first?

It seems that the word ‘stoush’ applies primarily in New Zealand and Australia and appears to be derived from the Scottish word stooshie. And your spelling was correct David.

While appreciating your desire for ice block simplicity, surely the Chinese block travelling thousands of…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 09:09:12 +1200

stooshie (sp?)

Stoush: a brawl or other fight…

Sorry Ian, I had momentarily lapsed into Scottish! It would be interesting to figure out the directionality of development of those words: was stoush or stooshie (sp?) first?

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 09:04:56 +1200

I’m surprised the NZ electricity generator and lines company’s haven’t pointed out that Solar panels and battery’s cost lots of carbon to make, so putting solar panels all over the roof rather than using the hydro dams, isn’t as cosmic as it looks.

It's all very headache-inducing, Steven. The short…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 08:49:42 +1200

stooshie (sp?)
Stoush: a brawl or other fight...
:- )

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 08:35:48 +1200

I only buy Nice Blocks – from a New Zealand company which pays a living wage to its employees. Can you factor that into the equation?

Yes, there are, of course, ethical issues in terms of buying an iceblock from abroad so as to avoid paying health & safety costs, etc.…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 08:29:04 +1200

But there is one sticking point…
the stick: plastic or wood?
– where is the wood sourced?
and is it not also sequestered energy and carbon?
and to wrap up..
the wrapper – plastic or paper?

Yes, you're quite right, Ian — I just didn't want this to get too…

Hilary Stace

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 08:28:58 +1200

I only buy Nice Blocks – from a New Zealand company which pays a living wage to its employees. Can you factor that into the equation? And what if you make your own in your own fridge?

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 08:16:34 +1200

I'm very happy to have a civil discussion on this topic, but — it just occurred to me — for some people anthropogenic climate change is a rather emotion-laden issue.

Could we possibly avoid a stooshie (sp?) about whether the climate scientists and atmospheric physicists are right or wrong --…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 08:07:18 +1200

Atmospheric Injury and the Blockheads
I think you have the problem licked!
But there is one sticking point…
the stick: plastic or wood?
– where is the wood sourced?
and is it not also sequestered energy and carbon?
and to wrap up..
the wrapper – plastic or paper?

I am…

David Haywood

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 07:08:18 +1200

For nigh on 20 years I’ve been attempting to explain this point to people outside the field of energy engineering—with almost zero success (which I’m sure is down to my limited communication skills, alas). I’m hoping that by discussing this in terms of something that all humanity loves and understands—viz.…

Public Address

Mon, 25 Jul 2016 07:08:18 +1200

Discussion from blog post.