Public Address | Cafe | Random Play: It's Not Easy Being Green-ish

Michael Fitzgerald

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:32:56 +1200

Not quite the oil debate but there isn't an electricity crisis if we move to heat pumps & solar water heater, rather than the one-bar heater & uninsulated water cylinder.
Tidal = sushi

stephen walker

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:57:43 +1200

oh, and the investments needed to take advantage of renewables (solar, wind, tidal), not to mention the cost of coal mining, are going to rise exponentially as the cost of oil and gas rise. and they are never going to be as cheap as what we have grown acustomed to.…

stephen walker

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:52:08 +1200

considering NZ's domestic dependence on fossil fuels for transportation and agricultural production (not to mention tourism), i cannot share your confidence that "we'll be right, mate".

NZ's per capita oil consumption p.a. is way up there. 50% higher than the UK. (very roughly from memory, 15 barrels per capita/year versus…

Raf Manji

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:31:59 +1200

when oil gets to $500/barrel the global economy will be in collapse. NZ has hydro, wind, solar, huge forest area with capacity for more and oodles of coal.

So my point is that the rest of the world be be in dire straits well before NZ is.

stephen walker

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:17:26 +1200

NZ is well placed on all fronts to cope with any eventuality...We have everything we need right here.

except the whole economy is predicated on the basis of exceptionally cheap fossil energy.

shipping goods to market by sea is not an issue. but the energy used in production and internal…

Raf Manji

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 20:26:25 +1200

Raymond,

Not necessarily. Remember the price of fuel already contains a large amount of tax. When i looked at this in the UK it turned out that VAT and other taxes actually came out about the same as pricing the cost of carbon in.

The oil market is also extremely…

Michael Fitzgerald

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:55:21 +1200

A growth in population to create a strong domestic market

Raymond A Francis

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:26:38 +1200

Yes I agree the only way we are going to make progress on this thing is to make people pay the true price of the energy they use
As long as the government keep their sticky little fingers out of the mix
So if it is true and we are…

Raf Manji

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:22:37 +1200

The answer Raymond is that environmental costs should be priced into the system. It's as simple as that. If you have an uninsulated house you will use more energy and pay more for that. If you fly around the world you will pay more.

As Stephen notes the end user…

Michael Fitzgerald

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:40:00 +1200

Stephen

Dairy prices are not dictated by cost of production (they'ld be a lot lower if they were) but rather the international market price for Milk.

The Dairy industy puts the price of milk up on a whim in NZ.

International prices for water range from (USD) $0.40 in Canada…

Stephen Judd

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:05:12 +1200

Actually dense large cities are probably most sustainable: you can heat and light apartments far cheaper than the equivalent suburban homes and leave the food growing to specialists.

Specifically wrt to the dairy farmers, if their costs go up, they'll put their prices up – and then consumers will indeed…

Raymond A Francis

Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:54:10 +1200

One of the things I notice with this whole debate "guilt trip"is that it is always everybody else who must change
Dairy farming... bad, mining fossil water , not paying for free water etc
City people using huge amounts of energy cart their food to them and their waste away…

Raf Manji

Thu, 19 Jul 2007 09:12:04 +1200

Michael,

I wouldn't say that. I think you made an important point. Water is of exceptional importance, as a raw resource, an input to production and its value as an ecosystem service.

I think we need to look very carefully at allowing massive abstraction of water for irrigation purposes. It's…

Michael Fitzgerald

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:34:35 +1200

Raf
It seems I've been caught boxing out of my weight division (again).
What is your position on Canty water?

Raf Manji

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 19:53:30 +1200

Michael,

I gave nitrogen as an example of an externality. Effluent run off is another. Work has been done on this in the UK (Jules Pretty at the University of Essex) and NZ (Steve Wratten at Lincoln University) and others are working on it.

As it happens i was one…

Michael Fitzgerald

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:53:12 +1200

Raf

You're ignoring vast scope of the impacts of Dairying and by doing so pass on the true costs to others.

Nitrogen is not the full story (it's pollution or production costs).
The aquifers drained has well passed sustainable levels (if it ever was) and now we invite the sea…

Raf Manji

Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:05:28 +1200

Some good points here and funny stories (Robyn!).

Eco guilt like eco consciousness is simply a process of evolution. When you come out the other side you relax and realise that the marketwill solve it way better than any bureaucratic intervention.

As Kyle and Nate note when externalities (those costs…

81stcolumn

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:51:08 +1200

Did any one see the article in New Scientist linking Obesity to global warming ?

Michael Fitzgerald

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:34:03 +1200

Nat T
Economics is the answer but enlighted guidence should point the way. This does require govt involvement (maybe not this or the next NZ govt) to achieve sustainability.
You can't speed for safety reasons – so too environmental rules can prove to be effective as well.
The carbon footprint…

Kyle Matthews

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 16:19:57 +1200

We can't figure out what to measure. "Carbon footprint" is a pretty crude measure of damage, and nobody's yet agreed upon where to stop the infinite regression of "but to get the food to the store you need to ship it in a truck and that truck had to be…

Stephen Pollard

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 15:03:57 +1200

Completely agree. Eco guilt is not helpful and risks a backlash which would be even less helpful in sorting out the rather large issues surrounding our effect on our environment. Hard to know how to live your life these days although probably the best thing we can do is vote…

Nat Torkington

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:24:39 +1200

I'm (unusually for me, I swear) a free-market loon when it comes to this. Solving the world's climate problem seems like it has only a few steps: (1) measure the harm in a consistent fashion for every action we take, (2) make price include harm, (3) let people then choose…

Michael Fitzgerald

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:58:53 +1200

Here goes another site
http://www.wastedtv.co.nz/index.cfm?&action=calculator

Michael Fitzgerald

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:38:16 +1200

Buggar seemed to cover my tracks there will have footprints shortly

Michael Fitzgerald

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:31:44 +1200

What was the old environmental campaign?
"Only leave your footprints behind"
Calculate yours here:
http://www.mfe.govt.nz/withyou/do/footprint/

A little political will and wisdom would be appreciated (we live in hope).

Central Plains Water will save drilling for the ever reducing 20000year old water. BUT will poison our water through nitrogen & the effluent…

kazel C

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:00:43 +1200

Hi, Your Carbon footprint should actually decrease. By leaving your home, you will no longer be heating and lighting a home just for one, no longer boiling a jug for one, watching tv etc. Your home carbon output will decrease dramatically, yet the office you will be going to is…

Kyle Matthews

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:29:27 +1200

It's OK, your carbon footprint increase is negligible. The bus already runs, so unless you've pushed it over the magical number where they put another bus on, hardly any increase there at all.

The true magic of public transport! You can let your wife have the rollerblades back in compensation.

andin

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:46:38 +1200

We're a pretty accusatory culture at the best of times

So true, regretably, so true.

Che Tibby

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:21:21 +1200

i agree entirely. santimony runs deep, and is easily accessible.

if you utter the immortal words, "but... i'm a vegan!". the first thing i think is, "food miles" on those fancy fruits and vegetables you need to keep yourself alive in the winter...

it's the same way i remember anti-vivisection…

Brent Jackson

Tue, 17 Jul 2007 09:13:57 +1200

It'll be interesting to see how those people using SUVs for the school run assuage their guilt ...

InternationalObserver

Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:58:00 +1200

I'm with you on this one Graeme. No point discussing it tho' lest I be jumped on by the Eco-snobs (they're not all bullies, some just look down their noses at you) most of whom are self-serving hypocrites.

Robyn Gallagher

Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:27:03 +1200

I was down at a local cafe buying a couple of cakey things. The counter girl put them in a plastic container, and I said, "Oh, but that'll just go in the bin? Can I have it in a paper bag." So she put them in a paper bag and…

poffa

Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:54:09 +1200

hey my 1st potential customer i have some wonderfully carbon absorbing totara trees u can purchase to ease the burden
cheers

Public Address

Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:54:09 +1200

Discussion from blog post.