Polity by Rob Salmond

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Polity: Too much to swallow on the TPP

139 Responses

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  • izogi, in reply to chris,

    Given the arbitrariness of Stuff.co.nz moderation, there’s very little that can be extrapolated from such a limited number of voices

    I'm also skeptical given how many times I've seem completely polarised discussions on Stuff, only to be followed by a discussion polarised the opposite way just a day later.

    I think the government must be hoping that this outrage being expressed is restricted to the internet and upper-class-political minority, and that there are swathes of voters out there who simply don't care because they have more immediate problems, and so on. That's a story of the entire election last year.

    If and when consequences of the TPPA become more immediate problems for individuals (can't parallel import, can't get medication, etc), then maybe voters will start caring, if blame is appropriately placed, even though it'll be too late to make a difference. The likes of Tim Groser and John Key probably anticipate they'll be retired from public life and long gone by the time that happens.

    What happens if Cabinet signs the deal but parliament fails to follow through? Does it potentially subject New Zealand to humongous penalties?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1141 posts Report Reply

  • Andre,

    The ozone layer depletion was also greeted with much scepticism from many quarters, until we all started suffering from extreme sunburn.

    New Zealand • Since May 2009 • 368 posts Report Reply

  • chris, in reply to izogi,

    there are swathes of voters out there who simply don’t care because they have more immediate problems, and so on.

    Sounds about right, the local weekly arrived yesterday, front page headline:

    Treated effluent gets the taste test

    Photo of two local councillors wearing visibility vests, one looks on as the other drinks the treated sewage discharge from a Pyrex measuring cup.

    "I have drunk far worse than that when I was farming, out of the creeks where you would look to see if there was a dead animal upstream – I never got crook doing that.”

    The TPP might be too much to swallow but.

    Mawkland • Since Jan 2010 • 1302 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    “What could possibly go wrong with the TPP?” – Dita De Boni maintains a suitably sarcastic tone.

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to chris,

    Sounds about right, the local weekly arrived yesterday, front page headline: Treated effluent gets the taste test

    This morning I listened to some great coverage of the ongoing TPPA stuff from Morning Report. Then I loaded up Stuff to see a top page magazine opinion about some guy and his pig in a Vodafone ad. Not far off yesterday afternoon’s engrossing front page newswire article about some random 911 operator in New Mexico who told a US caller to solve a problem themselves.

    TPPA coverage? Sure, but you have to scroll down and pretend you’re interested in the Business section.

    No wonder the government doesn’t seem concerned about political ripples..

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1141 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to izogi,

    I've found one relevant headline on the front page of Stuff today -- Dairy deal 'disastrous' as TPP talks near end -- which reveals an unlikely ally for those opposed to the secretive and treacherous TPPA agreement.

    Unlike the great unwashed, Federated Farmers dairy industry chairman Andrew Hoggard has a fair idea of what's being discussed, having spoken with New Zealand negotiators in Hawaii. He says the US, Canada and Japan are refusing to open up their protected dairy industries, a stance he desribes as "disastrous". Quelle horreur!

    While this could be written off as self-interest from our dairy industry, it's unusual to see a MSM story which is actually critical of the TPPA.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Alfie,

    there is a season… churn, churn, churn

    US, Canada and Japan are refusing to open up their protected dairy industries

    US, Canadian (and Chinese too) Dairy farmers are already dumping their own surpluses – what room is there for our excess supply…

    While milk is a unique growth stimulus – nothing grows all the time…
    …aside from, say, cancer!
    Though oddly many corporations think they can always continue to grow bigger, with no heed paid to cycles or entropy...

    see:
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/milk-surplus-forcing-canadas-dairy-industry-to-dump-supply/article25030753/
    and
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/milk-spilled-into-manure-pits-as-supplies-overwhelm-u-s-dairies
    and
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/09/china-dairy-idUSL3N0UO1WG20150109

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Alfie,

    Yes it’s good and I don’t personally think there’s necessarily been a lack of MSM journos being concerned about the TPPA. But at the same time it’s getting hidden and obscured behind the magazine-style priorities, as if those who manage and design the pages don’t trust their own journalists to come up with good material. There’s some major stuff happening that’ll impact everyone for a long time, but it’s being tucked away as if it won’t interest anyone.

    On Andrew Hoggard involvement, it’s good to hear that he’s also concerned, but it’s also still frustrating that representatives from a supposedly benefiting industry get to observe whilst those of us who are likely having our rights and benefits traded away in exchange are being locked out. Andrew Hoggard might give some insight on the benefits (or lack of them) for Dairy, but somehow I doubt he’ll keep us informed of everything being traded away elsewhere, either because he’s not being told or because it’s not in his industry’s commercial interests to inform everyone of that.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1141 posts Report Reply

  • Roger Lacey,

    Sadly, I think that it will end up being signed no matter what in order to satisfy the egos of our negotiators. Negative public opinion just seems to spur them on just to try and prove that everyone else is wrong.

    Whatakataka Bay Surf Club… • Since Apr 2008 • 148 posts Report Reply

  • Kumara Republic, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    How does he get by on so little information?

    The prospectuses of the multi-nationals benefiting from the TPPA, maybe?

    The southernmost capital … • Since Nov 2006 • 5441 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Roger Lacey,

    You're probably right, and yet this is still a government which seems to be good at severely mis-reading public opinion, then caving last minute based on polls of public opinion, adopting 65% of opposition policy and dressing it up as if it's always been government policy. Therefore I still have some hope.

    But not much hope.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1141 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to izogi,

    Attachment

    ....those who manage and design the pages don’t trust their own journalists to come up with good material

    Like yesterday's Press front page layout - half page on Oprah Winfrey - for some reason needed to waste 20 column centimetres on a second same sized shot of Ms Winfrey but in three quarter profile - why??
    Lazy, close to deadline?

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to izogi,

    Attachment

    Yes it’s good and I don’t personally think there’s necessarily been a lack of MSM journos being concerned about the TPPA. But at the same time it’s getting hidden and obscured behind the magazine-style priorities...

    Case in point... the main Herald headline at the moment is a story about Max Key and his rich mates' party lifestyle.

    I wonder how that tale will sit with the average Nat voter? To me it suggests poor parenting and a inflated sense of entitlement from those who play no useful role in society... sort of like currency traders, for example.

    In the Herald's favour, they also have a front page story by Dita de Boni which is critical of the TPPA.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie, in reply to Roger Lacey,

    Sadly, I think that it will end up being signed no matter what in order to satisfy the egos of our negotiators.

    And there are some big egos to fill. How many tens of millions did this government spend to secure the presidency of the Security Council? McCully has stated that he wants to solve the middle-east crisis during his whole one month tenure. Maybe in his spare time he'll find a cure for the common cold and come up with a solution to climate change. Or maybe not.

    We've been told that this is a prestigious role which brings honour upon our small country. But to put this in perspective, our time in the big seat was preceded by Lithuania and Malaysia, and we'll be followed by Nigeria and Russia. Russia FFS!

    Prestigious indeed! But only for one or two egos.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha,

    NZ seems to have traded off on software patents. So short-sighted.
    http://www.zdnet.com/article/open-source-leader-livid-at-tppa-software-patent-capitulation/

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • izogi, in reply to Alfie,

    How many tens of millions did this government spend to secure the presidency of the Security Council? McCully has stated that he wants to solve the middle-east crisis during his whole one month tenure. Maybe in his spare time he’ll find a cure for the common cold and come up with a solution to climate change.

    Yesterday Tracy Watkins wrote a very congratulatory piece about McCully, during which she more or less expressed how much of an instinctively awesome negotiator he is, using the recent MH-17 stuff as an example whilst managing to quietly dance around the point that he’d really been completely ineffective in his role there. Not his own fault, of course, as probably nobody else could have done any better (which may be the truth), but naturally the main thing is that he’s still optimistic things will somehow work out… because they always do, or something like that.

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1141 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Alfie,

    Excellent news!!!
    The current round of TPPA talks have failed -- that's great for most New Zealanders.

    Dunedin • Since May 2014 • 1437 posts Report Reply

  • Ian Dalziel, in reply to Alfie,

    ...great for most New Zealanders.

    until November...

    Christchurch • Since Dec 2006 • 7950 posts Report Reply

  • Sofie Bribiesca, in reply to Ian Dalziel,

    until November...

    This sums up my disapproval of the TPPA. Prof. Kelsey has been following it for some time
    The secrecy is undemocratic and that which seems to have been leaked about it, then the suggestions drip fed to media from National, all suggest there is nothing of value to NZ. The secrecy to me suggests nothing in this Pact benefits NZ so it must be crap. Therefore I disapprove. Our democracy is yet again under attack.

    here and there. • Since Nov 2007 • 6796 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald, in reply to Sofie Bribiesca,

    The secrecy to me suggests nothing in this Pact benefits NZ so it must be crap. Therefore I disapprove. Our democracy is yet again under attack.

    Yep.

    A slight, very temporary reprieve. We must keep up the conversation, and keep asking.....

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1346 posts Report Reply

  • izogi,

    "The sad thing is, 98 per cent is concluded," he said.

    This is a side to this which keeps me concerned. As long as it's apparently only Dairy and Pharmaceuticals which remain, it sounds as if we've already committed to signing away whatever sovereignty and rights we're not allowed to know we're signing away, unless we'll end up signing away even more of them.

    Is the main motivation for signing the TPPA really that if we don't, it'll be hard to get a new trade deal with any of the countries which have?

    Wellington • Since Jan 2007 • 1141 posts Report Reply

  • Sacha, in reply to Rosemary McDonald,

    ( the youtube link won't auto-embed if it has characters immediately before or after)

    Ak • Since May 2008 • 19740 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Asked whether New Zealand had ever considered abandoning the TPP talks because of the difficulty of getting a reasonable deal on dairy products, Groser said he was "not emotionally in the space of wanting to leave the party", given that New Zealand had initiated the TPP in the first place.

    "We will not be pushed out of this agreement," he said.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11490595

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1346 posts Report Reply

  • Rosemary McDonald,

    Fighting talk from Tim....http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11490776...

    Mr Groser admitted opponents of the deal were probably winning the political battle at the moment, but said they would not win the war.

    "Once I've got a deal to recommend to the Cabinet, and for the Cabinet to then recommend to the New Zealand people through Parliament, I am extremely confident we will win the war. But at the moment all the noise is on the other side."

    Keep it up folks.

    Waikato, or on the road • Since Apr 2014 • 1346 posts Report Reply

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