Public Address | Cafe | Polity: The Taxpayers' Union rides again! https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/ en-us Copyright (c) 2026 Public Address Tom Johnson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358667#post358667 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358667#post358667 Sat, 02 Apr 2016 21:05:30 +1300 Rob S https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358666#post358666 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358666#post358666 +1 Thanks for articulating this approach by Matthew Hooten which comes across as disingenuous and only another attack line from National with their calling it "barking" and all tax and oh noes it will ruin us etc.
With the highest numbers they can pull out of their collective arses used…

]]> Sat, 02 Apr 2016 20:36:58 +1300 BenWilson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358622#post358622 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358622#post358622 If someone makes a calculation on these assumptions you can’t say they are acting in bad faith, let alone that they are lying, especially if you then refuse to rule out any of these assumptions by saying “hey, $200 a week is just an idea, not a policy”.

The bit…

]]> Sat, 02 Apr 2016 13:17:16 +1300 Jason Kemp https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358568#post358568 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358568#post358568 Later, National can propose its own, with a different name, to wild applause from the usual suspects.

Actually National doesn't have to propose its own they can just continue on with Labour Party policies which are in effect UBI to all intents and purposes.

I wrote about this last week…

]]> Fri, 01 Apr 2016 14:26:28 +1300 James Littlewood* https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358560#post358560 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358560#post358560 Not as preposterous

But preposterous, nonetheless. When was the last discussion of UBI in the NZ media?

]]> Fri, 01 Apr 2016 12:09:28 +1300 Sacha https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358558#post358558 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358558#post358558 Guess we can gather from the 'debate' this week that that the word "universal" is not a useful way of framing this now.

"Guaranteed income" or suchlike might have attracted less clutching of pearls and black/white responses. Would still have fitted Labour's 'future of work' framing too.

]]> Fri, 01 Apr 2016 09:28:50 +1300 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358557#post358557 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358557#post358557 ...a UBI has always been understood since first proposed by Milton Friedman among others in the 1960s...
Not as preposterous as your claiming Nelson Mandela as some kind of champion of supply-side economics, but hey. nice try. The concept of a UBI was being discussed in far greater breadth and…

]]> Fri, 01 Apr 2016 06:37:56 +1300 Rob Stowell https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358555#post358555 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358555#post358555 Even in my head I can guestimate $300 per week plus $85 per child would come to about $60b. If govt currently take more than $72b that's a great wack, but not "all their revenue". And it replaces most current spending (approx $25b) on social welfare.
Nor is that anything…

]]> Fri, 01 Apr 2016 00:09:11 +1300 Matthew Hooton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358547#post358547 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358547#post358547 extinguishing the debate before it’s even been had.

Except the debate has been going on since the 1960s. Unless they mean a non-universal universal basic income.

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:51:14 +1300 James Littlewood* https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358545#post358545 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358545#post358545 the UBI is at the “what if “stage

So why release it? It's one thing for a government to fly kites. But for an opposition? All that does is Key's own job for him, extinguishing the debate before it's even been had.

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:35:21 +1300 Matthew Hooton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358541#post358541 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358541#post358541 you can quite validly accuse people of lying, obfuscation, or bad faith if they base their example costings on assumptions they know to be unrealistic.

You assume bad faith, but a UBI has always been understood since first proposed by Milton Friedman among others in the 1960s to provide a…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:14:13 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358535#post358535 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358535#post358535 you can’t then say that people are lyingRepeating that assertion doesn’t make it correct.
As has already been pointed out on other threads, you can quite validly accuse people of lying, obfuscation, or bad faith if they base their example costings on assumptions they know to be unrealistic.
DPF and…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:57:22 +1300 Matthew Hooton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358534#post358534 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358534#post358534 Are you suggesting that political parties should not allow public discussion of significant policy possibilities?

I think that if you genuinely want a policy discussion, you need to put some parameters and/or numbers around what you might consider. Otherwise you're just saying to voters "hey, how about $200 a week?"…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:48:15 +1300 Ianmac https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358533#post358533 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358533#post358533 A commenter Save NZ pointed me to a Canadian town Dauphin Manitoba where an experiment in a sort of GMI was trialled in the 70s. Until the oil shock/deflation etc killed it. The data saved is only now being uncovered by a researcher Evelyn Forget.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-mincome-experiment-dauphin

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:47:29 +1300 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358528#post358528 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358528#post358528 Exactly my point.

I guess there may be a substantial number of voters who want to leave everything to their elected representatives, but I’m not one of them. I want and expect to be included in early stage public discussions on major policy options. Experience has shown that many and…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 11:54:47 +1300 Steve Barnes https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358524#post358524 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358524#post358524 Are you suggesting that political parties should not allow public discussion of significant policy possibilities?

Well, that is what National does, there is never any consultation with the public over anything, look at the flag debacle. No "do you want to change the flag?", just a token choice and lots…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 11:38:50 +1300 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358523#post358523 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358523#post358523 Later, National can propose its own, with a different name

if the good ideas were taken up and set up properly, I wouldn't have an issue with that. But National punishes poor people for being poor, so a National party version of a UBI is likely to do exactly that,…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 11:34:39 +1300 Stephen Judd https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358522#post358522 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358522#post358522 Matthew's goal is make a discussion about UBI started by Labour an unworkable Labour policy. Therefore, it is essential to position the worst possible and most expensive structure as Labour's choice.

Later, National can propose its own, with a different name, to wild applause from the usual suspects.

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 11:28:26 +1300 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358519#post358519 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358519#post358519 Thu, 31 Mar 2016 11:11:55 +1300 Matthew Hooton https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358518#post358518 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358518#post358518 Thu, 31 Mar 2016 11:00:44 +1300 Raymond A Francis https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358517#post358517 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358517#post358517 What is not to like about the concept of a UBI
But Rob instead of running interference for the Labour Party how about tell us the truth
$200 a week while affordable for the country is not enough for most people to survive on, unless you propose tops ups
Treasury…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:55:52 +1300 Alfie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358516#post358516 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358516#post358516 robberies targetting tobacco are on the increase. That's pretty predictable when you raise the price of a product so much, but guess who they asked for comment? Jordan Williams with the usual raising taxes doesn't work line. ]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:50:04 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358513#post358513 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358513#post358513 Fear facts strikes again
The media is complicit in spreading misinformation – great example in Stuff today re Metiria Turei getting into the spirit of things with tweets and pix at the Hunt for the Wilderpeople premiere
see:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/78402308/green-party-coleader-metiria-tureis-wild-night-out-at-hunt-for-the-wilderpeople
with photos of her fooling around in a truck – which…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:12:04 +1300 izogi https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358509#post358509 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358509#post358509 I don’t think the TU is really the main problem. “Exposing” it would be of limited use because anyone who spends more than 10 minutes looking at it with a critical eye can already see what it is.

The bigger issue is with media that simply republishes stories that are…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:27:54 +1300 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358508#post358508 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358508#post358508 Operating one of those little trains that gives rides to kiddies would do wonders for their image, but who’d trust their kids with that lot?

Probably the parents of Auckland Grammar or Kings College?

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 02:59:16 +1300 Joe Wylie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358507#post358507 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358507#post358507 ...we could make them look like crass bullies by punking or trolling them...
If they're really "a club like Rotary or Lions" they could fight back by holding community events like sausage sizzles. Operating one of those little trains that gives rides to kiddies would do wonders for their image,…

]]> Thu, 31 Mar 2016 00:02:17 +1300 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358506#post358506 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358506#post358506 NZ’s mediascape is so shallow that it’s unlikely to go far to discredit itself by questioning a source that’s already been elevated so high. There’s a huge incentive for journos to avoid slagging off their possible future (or current) employers, so it probably just has to be put up with.… ]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:24:24 +1300 izogi https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358505#post358505 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358505#post358505 Well, its annual accounts (and society rules) can be downloaded from the Companies Office at http://www.societies.govt.nz/ (latest available is currently YE Dec 2014?), but it doesn't specify specifically where the money comes from. Someone else would have to answer if there's any way that could be extracted from it.

It…

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:08:29 +1300 Kumara Republic https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358504#post358504 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358504#post358504 In contrast, the Taxpayers’ Union is registered as an Incorporated Society.

So in other words, it's legally a club like Rotary or Lions.

That said, is there any legal avenue to make them tell the whole story, such as the Electoral Finance Act or what passes for it (on the…

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 22:49:28 +1300 Tom Johnson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358491#post358491 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358491#post358491 Money changes everything, coz they get paid to do these absurd press releases, Money can buy you an electorate like epsom, money can also buy you lesser but more funner things. Money is the token of power.

Advertising your message to hype your concerns, through not political discourse and analysis…

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:51:24 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358489#post358489 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358489#post358489 the Taxpayers’ Union [...] accepts financial members
but it’s not clear if they ever expireOMG it’s an association of the undead!

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:14:43 +1300 izogi https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358483#post358483 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358483#post358483 Tax Payers Union, Family First et al... show the power fringe lobby groups have to promote their agenda

I don't mind lobby groups generally when they clearly represent people, even when I strongly disagree with them. Lobbying's an important thing when it makes sure that views of lots of people…

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:54:18 +1300 Angela Hart https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358481#post358481 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358481#post358481 Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:19:41 +1300 Tom Johnson https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358480#post358480 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358480#post358480 Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:19:26 +1300 Ian Dalziel https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358478#post358478 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358478#post358478 Is there any effective means to combat how they operate, as logic, facts and research seems to fail?
It is a shame that a Truth-tellers Union isn't the obvious antidote.

I find it odd that they presume to speak for all 'Taxpayers' without proving that they have a critical mass…

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 15:56:53 +1300 bob daktari https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358477#post358477 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358477#post358477 Tax Payers Union, Family First et al... show the power fringe lobby groups have to promote their agenda through a under resourced media and gain public acceptance

Is there any effective means to combat how they operate, as logic, facts and research seems to fail?

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 15:04:46 +1300 linger https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358476#post358476 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358476#post358476 why UBI might add value
One way of looking at it is that a UBI is a grant to pursue projects that otherwise people wouldn’t have enough time to complete because of the need to work a paying job to live (or, for the existing unemployment benefit, the need to…

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 14:55:42 +1300 despud https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358475#post358475 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358475#post358475 my favourite bit was the "up to 56%" I have a macro in my head that automaticallly translates "up to" into "and I''m totally making this up"

I do have a question however, around why UBI might add value. I'm tempted to support it just on the basis of the…

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 14:31:26 +1300 izogi https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358472#post358472 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358472#post358472 Is this group anything more than a front for team Key? Can they really claim to represent taxpayers, and if so, how widespread is their membership? Who provides their funding?

The issue isn't so much that it's claiming to represent taxpayers. It's that major media outlets give it blind credibility…

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:57:59 +1300 Alfie https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358469#post358469 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358469#post358469 Dirty Politics, I've yet to see any sort of investigation into the group, if indeed it is a group and not just a single frontman and a couple of… ]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:25:59 +1300 Public Address https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358468#post358468 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/polity-the-taxpayers-union-rides-again/?p=358468#post358468 Discussion from blog post.

]]> Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:25:59 +1300