Public Address | Cafe | Polity: Australian election: Dust and Diesel

Joe Wylie

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:29:46 +1200

In Australia that leads to excitement as different factions/parties make and break deals with each other over who gets to be the mayor and for how long.

I once lived in Leichardt, when card-carrying Trotskyite Nick Origlass was Mayor. There were no purges of intellectuals or the bourgeoisie, and no…

Moz

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:25:20 +1200

How? Each list is published, the people vote for the list as a whole. If you don't like a list, don't vote for it, there are plenty to choose from.

The legal system and common sense are not even second cousins, they're almost different species. Both use language to express…

Moz

Thu, 28 Jul 2016 10:20:55 +1200

a mayor/leader elected by councillors.

In Australia that leads to excitement as different factions/parties make and break deals with each other over who gets to be the mayor and for how long. But it still beats the Auckland mayoral contest.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 23:25:47 +1200

The trouble with STV in local elections (and possibly in national ones) is that it's a personal popularity contest, which can easily turn into a stupidity contest.

Local government would be far better if we had a list system similar to MMP and a mayor/leader elected by councillors.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 23:19:36 +1200

MMP does not meet the constitutional requirement that MPs be directly elected by the people

How? Each list is published, the people vote for the list as a whole. If you don't like a list, don't vote for it, there are plenty to choose from.

Hugh Wilson

Wed, 27 Jul 2016 11:59:20 +1200

Australia's celebrity psephologist Anthony Green is speaking in Wellington tonight in case anyone was interested:

https://www.ipanz.org.nz/Event?Action=View&Event_id=498

Steve Todd

Mon, 18 Jul 2016 21:23:43 +1200

"And so what if it does? It might let more progressive elements into our Parliament too. (Mana, for example.) It certainly will lead to a greater diversity of views being represented. Additionally, if there’s more chance of some tangible result from voting for minor parties that actually represent voters’ views,…

Steve Todd

Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:57:06 +1200

"Should Australians be outraged that the seat split didn’t follow the vote split?

"If you win the popular vote in a democratic election, shouldn’t you normally expect to win the election as well, whether you’re a leftie or a rightie? And if you tie the popular vote, shouldn;t you also…

Steve Todd

Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:54:51 +1200

I must continue to disagree, Paul. People need only rank-order as many of the candidates as they feel able to / know something about, in the order in which they wish to see them elected.

Click on this post at What if ... Dunedin? https://dunedinstadium.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/why-not-the-stv-voting-sytem/ and scroll down to my…

Paul Campbell

Sat, 16 Jul 2016 21:33:53 +1200

Nevertheless if you want your vote to be counted best you have to rank all 40 people – a lot of people find this quite intimidating (it might be easier if one could do it online, moving names up and down to rank them, rather than trying to remember if…

Steve Todd

Sat, 16 Jul 2016 12:37:51 +1200

Try this one: http://www.prsa.org.au/2010-08-26_todd_stephen_stv_meek_new_zealand.html

Steve Todd

Sat, 16 Jul 2016 12:34:58 +1200

People can read about NZ STV here: http://www.prsa.org.au/2010-08-26_todd_stephen_stv_meek_new_zealand.html.

To view the 2004 Cargil Ward count paper, you may need to click on 'Edit document' to get the proper layout.

Steve Todd

Sat, 16 Jul 2016 12:22:55 +1200

<<< The big downside of STV voting (at least here in Dunedin) is having to rank 40 names 1-40[.] >>>

No you don't, Paul. A single '1' is all you need to mark against one candidate, for your vote to be valid. You can, of course, go further and just rank-order only those candidates who appeal to you (say, 1 to 8), to give your vote more chance of…

linger

Fri, 15 Jul 2016 18:57:32 +1200

I oppose any reduction of the five percent threshold on the basis that it might let such extremist elements into our Parliament.
And so what if it does? It might let more progressive elements into our Parliament too. (Mana, for example.) It certainly will lead to a greater diversity of…

Hugh Wilson

Fri, 15 Jul 2016 14:29:40 +1200

The Greens getting one lower house seat (0.66%) from 10% of the vote it looks dodgy as.

Yes, this is the point I made above. Further, I think its reasonable to believe that the Greens would get a higher first preference vote if voters were aware that would have more…

Moz

Fri, 15 Jul 2016 14:25:22 +1200

The Conversation on "how proportional is it" , with the conclusion that for the two major groupings it's not too bad, but if you scale that graph to include The Greens getting one lower house seat (0.66%) from 10% of the vote it looks dodgy as. Hence my call for…

Moz

Fri, 15 Jul 2016 11:57:18 +1200

(I am assuming that) in Australia if I dislike A and like B from the same party I can rank B high and A low

In the senate you can, but then you're committed to voting below the line and realistically you will probably need to number way more than…

Moz

Fri, 15 Jul 2016 11:49:41 +1200

I oppose any reduction of the five percent threshold on the basis that it might let such extremist elements into our Parliament. For example, I found the Conservative Party's anti-Treaty stance and climate change denialism

Yeah, like I said, in Australia that isn't an issue because those policies have both…

Craig Young

Fri, 15 Jul 2016 10:19:09 +1200

The article I wrote for Gaynz.Com was entitled STV versus MMP, and it canvassed the merits and defects of the two most proportional forms of electoral representation, as well as noting where they're used in Australia and New Zealand.

As you may have guessed already, I was actually one of…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 15 Jul 2016 09:56:54 +1200

If your chosen part in NZ is the Greens, then you can join the party and rank the list candidates. If you choose to vote for a less democratic party, you can't.

(I don't think Labour gives its members much of a say in list rankings? Obviously the Nats and…

mpledger

Fri, 15 Jul 2016 09:43:27 +1200

Moz said
This is where proportional systems win, hands down. MMP where you tick two boxes, party and MP, the end.
~~~~~~~
The worst thing about MMP is that the parties select their party list. (I am assuming that) in Australia if I dislike A and like B from the…

Moz

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 22:07:05 +1200

FWIW I'm not happy that we elected multiple competing groups of explicit racists, several theocrats and a great many extremely unpleasant people (what do want? More torture! Where do we want it? Offshore!), as well as re-affirming that 85% of the voters want more climate change, sooner. It's the old…

Moz

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 21:53:39 +1200

Automating voting is a whole different topic, and one which Australian voting is almost uniquely unsuited to (because final results may depend on the order in which votes are counted proving that software produces the same result is ... best left as an exercise for the reader). It's also worth…

Australopithecus

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 17:48:52 +1200

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you need only fool half the people election time.

andin

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 17:41:34 +1200

Aha the new clarion call of the conservatives rings out...
We only have to fool... oohh... about 50% of the people at election time.
The Bias will take care of the rest...
And thusly they rode off, disappearing up their posterior mistaking it for a sunset.
The Bias mockingly looks…

Hugh Wilson

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 17:36:54 +1200

Hopefully this GIF embeds (if not click through) … a clever visual of how first preference vote patterns have changed (and remained the same) in Melbourne across the last three elections.

http://www.smh.com.au/cqstatic/gq1atp/Melb_1stPref_HigherRes.gif

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:26:16 +1200

it takes a long time to type the ballots into the computers

I think most councils use a scanner which is run twice to find discrepancies.

Hugh Wilson

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 10:48:48 +1200

A couple of quick thoughts …

Firstly the Coalition has secured a majority, so they are not hanging on to independents – they’re important yes, but not crucial at this point in time
I also ‘get’ the bias you write of, but have to admit I’m not overly convinced by…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 10:38:45 +1200

I think the big parties are invested in FPP, it discourages fragmentation among their supporters

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 10:32:54 +1200

So why do Labour parties (in the UK and Australia) oppose fair votes?

Do they prefer an occasional chance at exclusive office when the pendulum swings their way to the ability to share power more often?

Paul Campbell

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 10:32:36 +1200

As a result, STV election procedures may not deliver a result for several days.

In NZ we use STV for many local body elections – it takes a long time to type the ballots into the computers, but seconds to run the program. It also makes being a scrutineer somewhat…

Craig Young

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 09:42:51 +1200

Was that Midnight Oil reference deliberate, Rob? :)

Craig Young

Thu, 14 Jul 2016 09:41:20 +1200

Here's a brief rundown of the various electoral systems operative within Australian federal, state and territory catchments:

[This is ] an opportunity to compare Australia's single transferable vote electoral system with New Zealand's MMP.

In Australia, federalism complicates the picture somewhat. However, the situation is broadly this at the level…

linger

Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:54:47 +1200

One contribution to this pattern is the effect of continuing urbanisation: electorate boundaries (however regularly they are redrawn) will always lag behind the actual population figures, in such a way that urban voters will be systematically underrepresented by seats, and rural voters systematically overrepresented. Rural areas tend to be conservative/right-leaning,…

william blake

Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:54:05 +1200

Election slogan perhaps "the only thing missing from Labor is U".

Public Address

Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:54:05 +1200

Discussion from blog post.