Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Yeah nah, but what do we stand for?

nzlemming

Thu, 03 Mar 2016 20:57:10 +1300

I posted this in Russell's flag thread :

I just received my ballot paper. In the information leaflet (English, only, unlike the "How to vote" leaflet, although you can download other language versions from their website) I find:

Silver Fern Flag
Designer: Kyle Lockwood
The designer considers the silver fern…

Paul Campbell

Mon, 29 Feb 2016 21:51:51 +1300

Our regard for McCaw is beginning to flag

Russell Brown

Mon, 29 Feb 2016 20:08:59 +1300

The Herald allows serial plagiarist Bruce Logan

That’s okay, I fixed it for you.

Some strange bedfellows are being made over this. Not that Bruce Logan would approve of that sort of carry-on.

It's funny that the new world in which columnists are not worth paying allows in known plagiarists.…

Emma Hart

Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:27:17 +1300

The Herald allows serial plagiarist Bruce Logan

That's okay, I fixed it for you.

Alfie

Mon, 29 Feb 2016 14:37:02 +1300

Former Listener editor Finlay Macdonald writing for RNZ — Has the PM mistaken himself for a flag?

Sacha

Sat, 27 Feb 2016 22:37:37 +1300

bottom panel looks more like Mr Horan's water polo days.
(h/t Ben Wilson)

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 27 Feb 2016 20:43:43 +1300

What goes around, comes around…
I’d just like to make a case for the prescience of Chris Knox –
my evidence the above two Max Media cartoons from 2005!

(sorry about dodgy focus)

Alfie

Sat, 27 Feb 2016 10:02:16 +1300

Today's Herald cartoon.

The same paper also has I don't give a hoot what Richie and Dan think — a heartfelt opinion piece from Lizzie Marvelly describing the process as ...a taxpayer-funded national "best drawing" competition judged by a group of people with absolutely no design experience.

With all due respect, I…

Alfie

Thu, 25 Feb 2016 18:30:18 +1300

I did read Smythe’s piece, but won’t bother with Logan’s.

I really have no idea who he is but Google shows a connection to the Maxim Institute. Sorry if I accidentally offended anyone.

simon g

Thu, 25 Feb 2016 18:17:28 +1300

I did read Smythe's piece, but won't bother with Logan's. The Herald should do a lot better than just "XX is an Auckland writer" when they label their op-ed pieces. It's disingenuous, or even lying by omission. They should give readers full disclosure – or preferably, not take his pieces…

Alfie

Thu, 25 Feb 2016 18:08:09 +1300

Amidst the onslaught of famous people say change the flag stories scattered throughout the MSM at the moment, there's this little breath of fresh air.

The Herald allows writer Bruce Logan and designer Michael Smythe to explain why the Weetbix-packet emulating aoteatowel (Smythe's term) is such a poor choice for a…

Rochelle Wilson

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:27:37 +1300

expects their children, close friends and colleagues to call them “sir”.

Certainly, children calling their parents "sir" and ma'am" is common in the USA [according to films etc].

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:10:41 +1300

polls are usually pretty accurate
Flag polls – give 'em a halyard and they'll take a mile...
:- )

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:40:41 +1300

Well, no, that's the point of monarchy. You get whatever the previous monarch's offspring grew up into. If the (British, I guess) government starts picking and choosing, then basically we move to having our head of state be whoever the British government of the day wants to nominate*.

* This…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:07:01 +1300

I went to my wife’s citizenship ceremony – she swore to the current crown and all her legal heirs ….

I will have been in this country for 30 years next Thursday.
All this time I have wondered why I should have to swear allegiance to the Monarch of the…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:50:07 +1300

I’d imagine there were some deep pockets amongst their members and supporters.
I wonder why you think that, you pinko unwashed arty type…
;-)

I had to post a comment on the YouTube site just in case foreigners thought our country stupid.

Feel free to add your own…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 14:07:14 +1300

Yeah sure, I went to my wife's citizenship ceremony – she swore to the current crown and all her legal heirs .... we wondered out loud whether of not she could add "except for Charlie", several of the people around us agreed that that would be a good thing

Matthew Hooton

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 13:42:57 +1300

Demographic change may disagree on that – depending how many of our new citizens defer to hereditary authority.

True. But I think (guess) that many new citizens are attracted to things like political stability, the Common Law, the Westminster system etc and may not be so keen on a change…

linger

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:20:52 +1300

Or indeed whether they still have voting rights under Prymincer For Life Maximillion Key II.

Sacha

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:11:27 +1300

I think we'll head to the 22nd century with current flag and King George.

Demographic change may disagree on that – depending how many of our new citizens defer to hereditary authority.

BenWilson

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 09:44:20 +1300

Now all sir has to choose is

Arrrg! The choosing! It burns!!

Matthew Hooton

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 09:21:09 +1300

The polls. Also, I thought there would be a bigger and better campaign creating momentum for change. But you reminding me of that analysis I did means I am slightly more confident there could be an upset win for the fern than yesterday (although the polls are usually pretty accurate).

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 08:53:28 +1300

frond memories...
Starry Fern wins
Makes me think of the reality of shortland Street as shorthand for NZ – surely their flag would be a 'Red Fern'
:- )

Alex Coleman

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 07:21:44 +1300

Best outcome is that the current flag wins, but only just. Therefore the narrative can focus on there being a general appetite for changing the flag, but not to this design.
This may mean I vote for the new flag. Even though I hate it.

Worst outcome is that Starry…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 06:57:47 +1300

Kid of Flag? Is that John Key?…
Doh! – ‘Kind’
Now I see what happens when proofreaders with pudgy digits go bad…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSwb4o4c4io&feature=youtu.be
I also see that the orchestrated ‘Vote For Change’ campaign is signed off by Lewis Holden, who was also the campaign chair of the [[http://www.republic.org.nz/|New Zealand Republic Inc…

Rich Lock

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 02:05:48 +1300

Some clothes look better than others and you probably want those

Blue overalls for the Outer Party, Black for the Inner Party.

Now all sir has to choose is: tapered waist or straight? collared or collarless? Belt loops or not? If belt loops are required, please specify numbers, width and…

linger

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 01:00:30 +1300

we’ll head to the 22nd century with current flagbut 2 months ago, right here you were opiningFor the fern to lose, turnout will have to exceed that of the 2014 election, and pretty much all the non-voters in the first referendum will need to back the Union JackWhich is it?…

Matthew Hooton

Wed, 24 Feb 2016 00:46:24 +1300

We will have to change the flag if we become a republic

There's no necessary link between these issues. An example is Fiji: still has the Union Jack on its flag despite being a republic. Others have mentioned Hawaii.

I also doubt the republic will happen in my lifetime. The…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 18:28:21 +1300

Wonder what kid of flag related ‘dead cats’ will be thrown into the pre-voting debate?
…and who will throw the first one?

Kid of Flag? Is that John Key?...
Nah, I know what you meant and I have had several thoughts along those lines.
I doubt if the TPP will…

Chris Waugh

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 18:27:59 +1300

Everyone’s entitled to a political opinion

It was my impression that, being no ordinary mortals, the royals aren't entitled to political opinions, or at least, expressed political opinions, and certainly not running for parliament. Trouble with Charlie is he has been known to push the limits of what he is…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:23:00 +1300

Wonder what kid of flag related 'dead cats' will be thrown into the pre-voting debate?
...and who will throw the first one?

Ross Mason

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 16:08:22 +1300

Link to SA Flag design and "selection"

I like the idea of a 5 year moratorium on whatever flag "wins" and then decide if you like it. Should also include the result of the current flag "winning" this time round.

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:32:26 +1300

...what does Gallipoli say about us? That we’re a nation of brave red-blooded men who are willing to lay down our lives for God, king and country? Or that after being sent into a senseless meat-grinder by our imperial overlords, we said “never again!” and were henceforth masters of our…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:31:55 +1300

In most fields other than politics, such a pervasive belief that changing the symbol alone is sufficient to change the reality would be called magical thinking.

Well, in business it is called Re-Branding and if you have ever dipped your toe into that morass we call Economics you will see…

linger

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 13:16:48 +1300

Royals […] outside BDSM situations They’re kingsters by definition.

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:57:00 +1300

He also spends his time surreptitiously intervening in UK politics using a range of concealed methods e.g. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/15/revealed-prince-charles-has-received-confidential-cabinet-papers-for-decades

(Everyone's entitled to a political opinion, but for ordinary mortals, their opinions need to be justified and debated to take effect – Charles uses his position to push his ideas whilst being…

simon g

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:39:26 +1300

I suspect the final result will be quite close, simply because there's only one possible action for change (voting for it), but several for no change (e.g. not voting, or spoiling).

Politically the best result for Key would be 51% to keep the flag. The worst would be 51% for…

llew40

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 12:08:50 +1300

There seems to be a very well funded PR campaign underway for flag change fronted by sports people and media people, but paid for by whom?

Hmmm, I dunno – I just dont think this is the sort of thing that would stay under wraps for long in NZ. I…

sandra

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:18:59 +1300

Two things regarding this nonsense that people (including New Zealanders, apparently) can't tell our flag from that of the Australian flag:

1: It's different
2: It's different.

Seriously, as a starting point our flag has red stars; our flag doesn't have one big white star. Okay, that's that fixed.

Here's…

Hilary Stace

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:19:27 +1300

There seems to be a very well funded PR campaign underway for flag change fronted by sports people and media people, but paid for by whom? You can see the public manipulation in action. I think the next poll will be much closer.

Ben Austin

Tue, 23 Feb 2016 02:51:36 +1300

Growing up as I did on a farm surrounded by rural National Party types I seem to have absorbed their general anti flag change view despite having not lived on a farm for a decade or more and so have not been on board with the current process at all.…

linger

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:48:53 +1300

He really wants to claim he’s radically changed NZ
thus carrying out his initially stated intention to “ambush us for Nu Zillan”.
In most fields other than politics, such a pervasive belief that changing the symbol alone is sufficient to change the reality would be called magical thinking.

But then…

Rosemary McDonald

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:04:34 +1300

I never have waved the NZ flag, nor flown it,

Likewise...until my first TPPA march last year. Had a conversation or two with Maori about the flag....and how it represents Maori relationship with the (British) Crown. Change flag...undermine relationship....undermine Tiriti.

1. We need a cast iron Constitution. None of this…

Euan Mason

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 21:27:36 +1300

Soon Lee, excellent point about momentous events prompting a flag change. That is what motivates Key. He really wants to claim he's radically changed NZ for the better, poor fool.

william blake

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 20:37:45 +1300

What if we wake up on the morning after and it's the fern flig, how are the traditionalists going to feel? And what will this revolutionary new wind bring with it, John Key and the National party, Ritchie and Dan, et.al. Business as usual. May as well call it job…

Soon Lee

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 18:52:19 +1300

I became a New Zealand citizen under the current flag so I have a certain fondness for it. New Zealand has changed markedly since: Rogernomics, Homosexual Law Reform, the market crash of 87, Student Loans, MMP, the freeing up of trade, the increase in migration and increase in diversity and…

Sacha

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 18:20:13 +1300

a flag that reflected the graciousness and originality that New Zealand is capable fostering

imagine if the fleg panel members had been chosen for those characteristics? some of the submitted designs would certainly have qualified.

81stcolumn

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:28:14 +1300

Charles is among other things Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall, two of the poorest parts of Great Britain. Shame he isn't such a passionate advocate for people.

#carefulwhatyouwishfor

Rochelle Wilson

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 17:01:26 +1300

Just a comment in respect of "King Charles of New Zealand":
Charles is only unpopular be cause he is not handsome and his ears stick out way too much and his parents did not get them cosmetically changed when he was a boy, poor chap.
He cares about the environment…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 16:20:14 +1300

Actually Ritchie McCaw's position may be quite right. Change the flag to something not Australian.

With due respect to McCaw, out of the million or so arguments for changing the flag that has to be the worse. If anyone is so confused by a scrap of fabric they think he's…

Steve Barnes

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:48:45 +1300

Laser Red Peak!

Likes it we does.

Steve Barnes

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:47:55 +1300

The process was rushed and the city will end up with something that was not to the right scale or that taxpayers had paid too much for, Key said.
See what happens when you get rid of proof readers?.

linger

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:46:43 +1300

good grief, it's Laser Red Peak!

Steve Barnes

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:44:13 +1300

*He picked Red Peak

Am I too late for the flag design game?
I drawered Red Beak...
:-D

linger

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:15:11 +1300

Best outcome is that the current flag wins, but only just. […] This may mean I vote for the new flag. Even though I hate it.Seriously, don’t indulge in that kind of gaming – because the worst outcome is that the Weetbix flag wins … but only just.
If you…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 15:00:57 +1300

New wrapping for the same contents...
I still can't see any point in changing nothing but the flag?
It will still represent the same system, change that and then you have a reason to change the flag – don't just change it because John Key no longer likes it.

But…

Joshua Arbury

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:41:09 +1300

Best outcome is that the current flag wins, but only just. Therefore the narrative can focus on there being a general appetite for changing the flag, but not to this design.

This may mean I vote for the new flag. Even though I hate it.

81stcolumn

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:46:30 +1300

I let Mr. 7 guide me in the first ballot and may yet do that again, it’s going to be his flag really, not mine.*

As a twelve year immigrant and “professional Welshman” I have a flag of my own, that I have yet to relinquish.

The debate about New…

Ewan Morris

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 13:34:26 +1300

That flag is the flag of the independent Kingdom of Hawaii.

It was, but it's also been appropriated as the flag of the US state of Hawai'i. Despite this, it is still used by many Native Hawaiians as an assertion of Hawaiian sovereignty.

Kumara Republic

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:28:10 +1300

My thoughts, TL;DR: yes to changing the flag, no to a maple-leaf-designed-by-committee with all the vapidity of a Jersey Shore episode.

Paul Campbell

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:15:59 +1300

here here – I want a new flag, I want the Union Jack gone – but not this flag and not this way, by a committee of those most unsuited for the task, and not that shade of National blue – I'm voting "no" too and not because I want…

George Darroch

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 12:11:37 +1300

That flag is the flag of the independent Kingdom of Hawaii.

Sam Bristow

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:59:08 +1300

A lot of the support for the Lockwood flag seems to be centred around what it isn't rather than what it is. Lots of comments mention getting rid of the Union Jack, not many (that I have seen) focus on it actually being a good symbol of NZ.

I've been…

keeaa

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:52:43 +1300

Like many, I would like a new flag, but not THAT one. For me the silver fern is about sport and marketing, not a national symbol I can identify with. And Red Peak was still too red, white and blue for me.

I hoped for a design that would represent…

Paul Brislen

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:36:24 +1300

The flag is supposed to be a symbol of the nation it represents but ours became a logo. We had no discussion about New Zealand, but plenty of chatter about the design of the flag itself.

To echo Keith's point, we are doing this the wrong way round.

I'll be…

Rob Stowell

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:25:13 +1300

The thing I dislike about the proposed flag is the silver fern being the symbol of our "kiwi myth" – that's so linked in the marketing of our sport teams – and I'm a sports nut – but I don't want to minimise New Zealand to that – we are…

Marion Ogier

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 11:08:10 +1300

I'm voting to keep our current flag for lots of reasons: it does have history, the process for change has been inadequate as you say and the proposed new design looks like something that has been cut and pasted up after the results of some polling have been studied. Compromise,…

BenWilson

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:28:10 +1300

I feel about the flag debate about how I feel about purchases of clothing or paint color. Which is that it's impossible to be rational. The whole thing is opinion and feeling. Of course it matters. Some clothes look better than others and you probably want those, but the process…

Moz

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 10:25:41 +1300

For me, the hassle of changing the flag outweighs any sense that the alternatives are less awful than the current flag.

One obvious solution is voting to change Australia's flag instead. I'm sure the two merchant bankers could sit down together and come up with whatever Malcolm wants. That would…

Ianmac

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:59:45 +1300

Actually Ritchie McCaw's position may be quite right. Change the flag to something not Australian. But the fern flag is not it. Vote No but please in a year or two have another go at some flag design that is symbolic, distinctive and lovable.

bob daktari

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 09:57:41 +1300

That’s why I’m voting no

Could you clarify, no to what?

If there is some sort of political will we can go through the flag change process again, whenever – I don't believe there is any law nor legal reason why we couldn't repeat this process, other than common sense.…

Chris Waugh

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 06:24:54 +1300

We will have to change the flag if we become a republic

Why? Hawai'i has the union jack on its state flag.

Gruntie

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 05:04:45 +1300

Thank you Keith, and my son for posting a link to this on Facebook
What's the rush – only a legacy for Mr Key, I suspect . I for one can wait for a full and proper constitutional process that has at is basis proper engagement with the tangata whenua,…

Public Address

Mon, 22 Feb 2016 05:04:45 +1300

Discussion from blog post.

Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Yeah nah, but what *do* we stand for?

nzlemming

Paul Campbell

Russell Brown

Emma Hart

Alfie

Sacha

Ian Dalziel

Alfie

Alfie

simon g

Alfie

Rochelle Wilson

Ian Dalziel

Rich of Observationz

Steve Barnes

Steve Barnes

Paul Campbell

Matthew Hooton

linger

Sacha

BenWilson

Matthew Hooton

Ian Dalziel

Alex Coleman

Ian Dalziel

Rich Lock

linger

Matthew Hooton

Steve Barnes

Chris Waugh

Ian Dalziel

Ross Mason

Rich of Observationz

Steve Barnes

linger

Rich of Observationz

simon g

llew40

sandra

Hilary Stace

Ben Austin

linger

Rosemary McDonald

Euan Mason

william blake

Soon Lee

Sacha

81stcolumn

Rochelle Wilson

Craig Ranapia

Steve Barnes

Steve Barnes

linger

Steve Barnes

linger

Ian Dalziel

Joshua Arbury

81stcolumn

Ewan Morris

Kumara Republic

Paul Campbell

George Darroch

Sam Bristow

keeaa

Paul Brislen

Rob Stowell

Marion Ogier

BenWilson

Moz

Ianmac

bob daktari

Chris Waugh

Gruntie

Public Address

Public Address | Cafe | OnPoint: Yeah nah, but what do we stand for?